Combat system

[Mk3rd]

Those games have very good melee combat but I dunno how that would fit Cyberpunk since its focus will be more on gunplay.

Melee will be a part of cyberpunk, no two doubts about it. Martial arts even. Of course it won't be used as much as the lethal gunplay and you will die if you charge in thinking you're Wolverine but it will be there for certain builds fo sho.

Thinking about it, maybe SWJK isn't the best idea. MGSV, SoulsBorne or even Black Desert Online's inputs would work for the melee IMO.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Angry emotional? Not really I am just pointing out the werid logic in Tarathelion since he replied to me. Also more of evidence of the game getting criticism for its gameplay? I am honestly somewhat puzzled you ask me this since criticism for the games gameplay was pretty much everywhere on the internet it very hard to miss lol even in 2017.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comme...review_thread/

I wasn't referring to you, but to more "It's shit" hyperboles I've seen come from fans of other "rival" games, like Bloodborne or Skyrim. I'd recommend instead watching more thorough examination from more respected journalists like Van Ord or George Chairman( https://youtu.be/CXWbUJXAVE0?t=729), instead of anonymus from reddit comment section.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

They should check out the Star Wars Jedi Knight series. The lightsaber combat was insanely good.

They were (are) great, but they were built for entirely PvP, in campaign player would steamroll through mobs.
It was also a light, finesse system, this will likely be more "down to earth" and "gritty". More extensive melee could work here but with heavy reliance on crowd control...smoke bombs, AoE stun, etc.
Still it would make for a very difficult playstyle in the beginning.

For gunplay feedback and robots they should look up to Binary Domain:

 

[Suhiira]

I note the usual impossibly high magazine capacity pin-point full auto fire, and firing accurately on the move I've come to expect from games ... all of which bears zero resemblance to reality.

Oh yes ... let's not forget the gattling gun on his back as a secondary weapon!

Don't get me wrong, all of that is just fine in an action game like Doom, and apparently Binary Domain, but just doesn't fit in Cyberpunk.

 

[Meccanical]

Well of course, it's good, clean fun.

And whether Cyberpunk 2077 will be good, clean fun or as deadly and unforgiving as the original pen and paper game remains to be seen.

 

[Suhiira]

And whether Cyberpunk 2077 will be good, clean fun or as deadly and unforgiving as the original pen and paper game remains to be seen.

True, most here are hoping for deadly and unforgiving since that's one of the things that would help CP2077 stand out from the hordes of shooter games.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Don't get me wrong, all of that is just fine in an action game like Doom, and apparently Binary Domain, but just doesn't fit in Cyberpunk.

Agreed. Though I fear what's in that gif is not too far off from what we'll get in the end. (It almost like what'd happen if you gave Geralt a machinegun.)

True, most here are hoping for deadly and unforgiving since that's one of the things that would help CP2077 stand out from the hordes of shooter games.

Dunno about "standing out" by that virtue alone (if the mechanics don't stand out), it'd be deadly and unforgiving, i.e. more difficult than standard, whilst otherwise being just like the rest of them; plus doubly twitchy since everyone dies faster.

 

[Corewolf]

I note the usual impossibly high magazine capacity pin-point full auto fire, and firing accurately on the move I've come to expect from games ... all of which bears zero resemblance to reality.

Oh yes ... let's not forget the gattling gun on his back as a secondary weapon!

Don't get me wrong, all of that is just fine in an action game like Doom, and apparently Binary Domain, but just doesn't fit in Cyberpunk.

Suhiira have you tried Resident Evil 7 yet?

There are some action-y bits (Blocking, healing), but a good chunk of the game has an actual feel of what it's like to use a firearm. It's actually tricky at first (till you get used to it anyway) to land headshots on a moving target, and even then.

And RE being RE, center of mass does shit all... so if you miss you are just wasting ammo and then have to run or dodge.

 

[Corewolf]

Agreed. Though I fear what's in that gif is not too far off from what we'll get in the end. (It almost like what'd happen if you gave Geralt a machinegun.)

It's really going to depend on what kind of character they start us as to a degree. I mean if we are supposed to be a Cyberpsycho that is conscripted like nightgown girl in the trailer... it could make sense that we have some familiarity with firearms or some kind of 'ware that makes shooting easier.

THAT easy, no... But still.

Dunno about "standing out" by that virtue alone (if the mechanics don't stand out), it'd be deadly and unforgiving, i.e. more difficult than standard, whilst otherwise being just like the rest of them; plus doubly twitchy since everyone dies faster.

Combat should have some "Twitchy" to it. Combat is tense and actual fights for life (bullets or melee) generally can be counted in seconds rather than minutes like Hollywood. Only time real combat is drawn out is when at least one person is trying to NOT kill or seriously injure the other combatant (avoiding breaking bones or dislocating joints) and said individual is skilled enough to not be killed themselves.

 

[Sardukhar]

Combat should have some "Twitchy" to it. Combat is tense and actual fights for life (bullets or melee) generally can be counted in seconds rather than minutes like Hollywood. Only time real combat is drawn out is when at least one person is trying to NOT kill or seriously injure the other combatant (avoiding breaking bones or dislocating joints) and said individual is skilled enough to not be killed themselves.

Sure, but this a "role-playing" game. In other words, people who are total crap or just so-so at twitch combat, should be able to play a hyper-fast, hyper-steady Solo if they want.

Really, cyberware can make you so quick and accurate, -none- of us in videogame world could keep up. If you want to simulate what it's like have reflexes 50% faster than the -fastest- human alive and the augmented accuracy to match, you're going to need some kind of compensatory mechanism.

Whether that's Real Time With Pause, some limited Turn Based trick or mere bullet time, I don't know, but regardless, crappy twitch gamers should be able to play badass combat ops as well as highly-experienced Counterstrike teens. And even those teens should be able to pull off stuff they'd never be able to otherwise.

Or else it's not role-playing, is it?

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

I note the usual impossibly high magazine capacity pin-point full auto fire, and firing accurately on the move I've come to expect from games ... all of which bears zero resemblance to reality.

Oh yes ... let's not forget the gattling gun on his back as a secondary weapon!

Don't get me wrong, all of that is just fine in an action game like Doom, and apparently Binary Domain, but just doesn't fit in Cyberpunk.

They are worlds apart...in Doom you run around at high speed and tear demon heads with bare hands (which in return drop magical orbs), in BD shooting enemies can destroy their armor plating and AI adapts to type of location damage. Why wouldn't this be seen as more "realism"?
And there are actually a Lot of more realistic/unforgiving shooters, this would not be really be anything unique on the market...Arma, OF series, Raven Shield, a Ton of even modern shooters on higher difficulties, Stalker, Metro, etc, etc.
"Hardcore" survival/realism in gameplay is something that you need to build your entire game around and this generally works poorly in story driven games.
It can also easily cripple gameplay variety and tactics, something contraproductive for any game that aims to offer any kind of flexibility here and strictly pin down player to relying on safest/simplest strategy and common AI exploits.

 

[Corewolf]

Sure, but this a "role-playing" game. In other words, people who are total crap or just so-so at twitch combat, should be able to play a hyper-fast, hyper-steady Solo if they want.

Really, cyberware can make you so quick and accurate, -none- of us in videogame world could keep up. If you want to simulate what it's like have reflexes 50% faster than the -fastest- human alive and the augmented accuracy to match, you're going to need some kind of compensatory mechanism.

Whether that's Real Time With Pause, some limited Turn Based trick or mere bullet time, I don't know, but regardless, crappy twitch gamers should be able to play badass combat ops as well as highly-experienced Counterstrike teens. And even those teens should be able to pull off stuff they'd never be able to otherwise.

Or else it's not role-playing, is it?

The typical compensatory mechanism in RPG's tends to be a result of turn based combat, thus accelerated turn order, additional action points or moves per turn.. or dodge chance going higher when under fire. Dunno how that will work in the current game marketplace. I for one HATED Morrowind where I was very clearly landing blows on a crab, but would get a message or floaty text going "Dodged," "Missed" So I hope we aren't entirely relying on dice rolls either.

I agree that some form of compensation is necessary, but skill still needs to come into it somewhere. Real life, even with two people with similar equipment, skill matters. Hell, even in roleplaying tabletop games, experience, skill and knowledge can make or break the outcome of a character (I've seen so many games of Paranoia have missed opportunities because someone wasn't imaginative enough)

Even in The Witcher 3, which is a roleplaying game of some note I hear, A fair chunk of my ability to do well early on, and definitely a factor in getting a good ending without a guide, was that I had read the books, which gave me an advantage in some respects when figuring out attitudes of people in the world and monster vulnerabilities that may not have been obvious to people who hadn't. Is that advantage really so different from someone else having better reflexes than me?

Dishonored might be a good example of this. The PC (Corvo) has a slew of things that make him faster or better than typical characters in the game, but player skill can still determine accuracy and things like that. I'm decent at the game and can either stealth or play hyper-fast assault type gameplay, but I'm not as good at it as some of the people who have made those gorgeous youtube killchain videos where they wipe a platoon of guards in a single extended streak.

I just hope the "crappy twitch gamer" compensation option to play combat ops isn't the typical "Tank it" option of RPG's. Honestly it should come down to player choice. If one player is particularly good at dodging bullets or taking cover, they may never touch the accelerated reflex cyberware, whereas another player who isn't so good at it could take it and do better at something they couldn't before.

I dunno. It walks a fine line between turning you into unstoppable superman and traditional "still vulnerable" Cyberpunk style gameplay.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

I just hope the "crappy twitch gamer" compensation option to play combat ops isn't the typical "Tank it" option of RPG's.

Stats/Weapons connection done similar like in Souls series, could possibly work here for more gameplay flexibility. Slower rate fire/less precision based fire arms would be more advantageous for stronger player, smaller/more precise would work better for players with high reflexes.
This would require a lot of precise fine tuning ( recoil, draw, crosshair, abilities, etc) though.

 

[Suhiira]

What many people seem to fail to appreciate is that CP2077 is suppose to be an RPG. You are playing a character , with their stats and skills, so the players ability to put targets in the crosshairs is largely irrelevant, it's the characters skills that matter.

If you want a game where your skills as a player determine your skills in combat, take your choice, there are tons of them out there. But don't get pissed when a game all but ignores your skills in favor of those of a character, not all games have to be, or should be, shooters.

It's a different type of game, don't expect, or demand, it play the same.

Suhiira have you tried Resident Evil 7 yet?

Nope, and I won't, yes I suck THAT much at twitch games.

I'd LOVE to play Arma 3, I watch the "realism" vids all the time and drool. But I know I'd be a liability not as asset, so I just watch and dream.

Sure, but this a "role-playing" game. In other words, people who are total crap or just so-so at twitch combat, should be able to play a hyper-fast, hyper-steady Solo if they want.

Exactly so. In an RPG game-play mechanics cannot dictate what sort of character you can play. The mechanics have to be designed to "permit" not "exclude".

 

[Sardukhar]

In an RPG game-play mechanics cannot dictate what sort of character you can play. The mechanics have to be designed to "permit" not "exclude".

Exactly this.

And not to go off-topic, but in the sense of role-playing, Witcher 3 was role-playing Lite - you had your character picked for you, his skillset was limited and to play at "normal" you needed a certain Real World skill set yourself.

It made up the distance in terms of interactive choice/consequences but as much as I love Witcher 3, I want Cyberpunk to encourage people to have fun playing a badass ass-kicker. As I would as a GM.

 

[Calistarius]

Something which I still hold hope in is the fact that CP2077 is still so far being classed as an "Role-playing" game (this classification does come from Wikipedia, so take that for what it is), or "Role-playing video game" as the name of the page is, and used to be called "cRPG's".

Now why does this matter? That CP2077 is so far still classified as a "Role-playing" game on Wikipedia? Well... because that particular definition tends to set a game worlds apart from most of the other "RPG" types of games out there.

Most of the games which has been mentioned so far in the last 30+ posts (and many which has not, but which is right around the same corner as them)... games like Witcher, Morrowind, Skyrim, Deus Ex (old as new), Fallout 3/NV/4, Mass Effect, Bloodbourne, Dark Souls, Nioh, Alpha Protocol, Diablo 1/2/3, Final Fantasy XV, and many more... all these games are classified as "Action Role-playing".

And that, "Action Role-playing", is something very different from the "Role-playing" classification of games.

To get an idea... these are some of the games classified as "Role-playing" games: Dragon Age: Origins (2 and Inquisition are under the aRPG classification, which is partly why a lot of us DAO fans are not very fond of them), Fallout 1 and 2, Baldurs Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Divinity: Original Sin, most Final Fantasy games (with some exceptions), Suikoden, etc.

You see the difference here? One kind relies greatly, or partly (because there is a degree to these things, and other aspect of the game also makes a difference for the classifications), on the players own skill in doing things... the other does not. "Action Role-playing" being the former, and "Role-playing" being the latter.


Now... this does partly stand on some shaky grounds, with the classifications... because "Action Role-playing", and some several other classifications of rgp's as well (Tactical rpg's, Roguelike, etc), are in fact subgenres of the "Role-playing"/"Role-playing video game" genre. Which does suggest that CP2077 could be for example an "Action Role-playing" (or any one of the others to for that matter)... but, it could also mean that the game will still be the standard definition of what an "Role-playing" game is. Because the reason there are subgenres in "Role-playing" is because the games from those other genres of RPG's deviate in some pretty significant ways from the standard "Role-playing" genres definition of such games.

The reason why CP2077 is still classified as an "Role-playing video game", and not one of the subgenres like for example "Action Role-playing", could be many... it could be because it will actually be a "Role-playing", it could be because they have maybe not compleatly decided yet as to exactly what kind of rpg it will be, or it could be that the person/people who wrote the Wiki page for the game just don't know and just picked the main genre name where it would most likelly end up in (due to all of the sub-genres in it, etc), and what ever other reason as well.

So that, and a fair amount of what some of the CDPR main developers and/or leaders have said about what the game ("True rpg", "want to try to stay as close to the original game as possible", "We even want to have an option of printing your character sheet from the game", etc), and the general unknown about the game due to a huge lack of information... is still keeping a fair amount of us on this forum hoping for a game which is not a twitch based type of a game, which is not an action type of rpg... and is more of cRPG type of game, where the characters stats, attributes and skills matter a whole lot more to how things go in the game, rather then the players own "skill" in doing something (like quickly aim at a target and fire on it, befor it fires on you, etc)... but only set in a 1st and/or 3rd person open-world type of a thing.

I would say that this line from Wikipedia is essentualy as much as we know right now:

"Cyberpunk 2077 is a role-playing video game played from either a first-person or third-person perspective."

And that is basicly really vague, it could mean just about anything... it could mean what me and others want with it being more cRPG-like , it could mean that it would be more like aRPG-like as other want, and I guess it could also be even further down the road toward even more twitch based FPS like type of a game (even though the main guy at CDPR, I think it was him atleast, did say some several years ago that it would NOT be a shooter.. a lot of things can change in 4+ years though).

This is after all the only reason that all of us are still now, 4 years after the teaser/call-to-arms trailer was released, debating and arguing over what CP2077 should be, because the information is still so vague at this point that it could be just about anything within the realm of what an "Role-playing video game" can be. XD

 

[Mk3rd]

It'll be an action RPG that's going to lean heavily on the PnP aspect. That I can be sure of. Think VtM Bloodlines. Only more lethal and realistic.

And don't quote Wikipedia man. That place can sometimes be more of opinions than facts when it comes to classifying genres of just about any media.. especially the unreleased ones.

 

[Corewolf]

Exactly this.

And not to go off-topic, but in the sense of role-playing, Witcher 3 was role-playing Lite - you had your character picked for you, his skillset was limited and to play at "normal" you needed a certain Real World skill set yourself.

It made up the distance in terms of interactive choice/consequences but as much as I love Witcher 3, I want Cyberpunk to encourage people to have fun playing a badass ass-kicker. As I would as a GM.

The problem there is more the format then the lack of desire. There are times I play games like The Witcher, Deus Ex, or even Neverwinter Nights and go "Hm... if this were a PnP RPG I could strength check to see about just bringing down a wall or something... Climb the outside of a building rather than going in and up all the stairs.

Video Games inherently limit you to some degree and necessitate a Real World skillset in interfacing alone. That inherently means that we are going to be restricted to some degree by our real world skill even more so as games tend to move away from Turn-Based and more towards Real-Time systems

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It's really going to depend on what kind of character they start us as to a degree. I mean if we are supposed to be a Cyberpsycho that is conscripted like nightgown girl in the trailer... it could make sense that we have some familiarity with firearms or some kind of 'ware that makes shooting easier.

It's said that we can create our character from the ground up. That means that we should be able to create a character that has no experience with firearms what-so-ever, who might have problems figuring out how to hold a gun (I've seen real life examples of people who genuinely didn't know how to hold a rifle and aim; so yeah, that really is a thing); the contary is also true as well, we should be able to create cyber version of Lucky Luke (though, who's not quite faster than his shadow but pretty damn fast still, and accurate), and the gameplay - through the character systems and other mechanics - should reflect all that. Having twitch/player precision based combat nulls that, and half of it at least even if the aim was distorted by the stats.

Also, if they apply a preset background - say, the horrible "ex armyman" or "ex cop/merc" cliches who're naturally talented with combat - it'll not be "our" character anymore, it'll be theirs whom we then slightly modify, much like Geralt.

Combat should have some "Twitchy" to it.

I don't think it needs that at all. What combat should have - and that's pretty case specific - is good core mechanics (CP2077 has CP2020 to look at and get inspired) and playability that's built around those mechanics. Twitching is not needed at all. And even so, there are ways to implement some form of "twitching" and player precision without losing the touch with the core mechanics even if they were largely inspired by and adapted from PnP and its dicerolls. If only the designers and studios these days had the balls to explore other avenues than what's currently trendy the action game market.

an action RPG that's going to lean heavily on the PnP aspect

That sounds like marketing speak. It always gets said ("respect the source material"), but the reality also nearly always bites back in the end.

 

[NightSavior]

If only the designers and studios these days had the balls to explore other avenues than what's currently trendy the action game market.

Totally this.
Of course, there are smaller developers who do different kinds of stuff but the bigger the company seems to be the safer choices they make. I'd love to see a game from a big company that tries to break the typical format with combat as the central gameplay mechanic.