Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Some folks are just bound and determined CP2077 must be a shooter.

Not at all...but if it will play as an action rpg ( which CDPR indicated), then "action" has to be well designed.
And you'd be surprised how much of this is true even for "old school" crpg's.

 

[Suhiira]

Not at all...but if it will play as an action rpg ( which CDPR indicated), then "action" has to be well designed.
And you'd be surprised how much of this is true even for "old school" crpg's.

But it's a question of priorities.
Is it an "action" game first and foremost - Doom?
Or is it an RPG first and foremost - Bloodlines?

While it's not impossible to do both well, when a decision between the two must be made which way to the developers go? If you constantly stress one over the other then one suffers, and if you don't then both probably will.

 

[Hoplite_22]

RPG has to come first, but going down the rudimentary combat root if you are going to do combat at all is going to ruin the game for me. happened with PoE and Torment:ToNit's. Fun for that is as important as it being a robust RPG even if you hardly ever do it.

 

[SarahGabriella]

I just hope the story is gonna be good. Thats the most important part to me. And a great campaign mode.But also a lot of stuff afterwards. Witcher 3 suffered from nothing to do after the story was finished, which was fine because its Geralts end. Cyberpunk 2077 should be different tho. I want to create my own char.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

But it's a question of priorities.
Is it an "action" game first and foremost - Doom?
Or is it an RPG first and foremost - Bloodlines?

While it's not impossible to do both well, when a decision between the two must be made which way to the developers go? If you constantly stress one over the other then one suffers, and if you don't then both probably will.

Eh, it's been a while, but as I remember Bloodlines played pretty much as action game, combat wise. Those elements were poorly done, but think that had little to do with rpg mechanics outside of budget concerns( which CDPR has covered).
And there are games designed on very low budget with far better combat systems than you'll find in many AAA blockbusters...Mount and Blade, good example. More a matter of designers having a clear goal and gameplay mechanics being coherent and engaging enough to accomplish it ( Visual/audio appeal is secondary).
Or ( as I mentioned this 12x times or more), swallow your pride, developers, and take a look at some of the work from modding community:

This was done by an adolescent with no "budget", education or actual experience and still manages to be more impressive and well thought out than what entire CDPR's gameplay team have accomplished.

 

[SarahGabriella]

Eh, it's been a while, but as I remember Bloodlines played pretty much as action game, combat wise. Those elements were poorly done, but think that had little to do with rpg mechanics outside of budget concerns( which CDPR has covered).
And there are games designed on very low budget with far better combat systems than you'll find in many AAA blockbusters...Mount and Blade, good example. More a matter of designers having a clear goal and gameplay mechanics being coherent and engaging enough to accomplish it ( Visual/audio appeal is secondary).
Or ( as I mentioned this 12x times or more), swallow your pride, developers, and take a look at some of the work from modding community:

This was done by an adolescent with no "budget", education or actual experience and still manages to be more impressive and well thought out than what entire CDPR's gameplay team have accomplished.

I doubt he created all those graphics and everything from scratch...

 

[Suhiira]

This was done by an adolescent with no "budget", education or actual experience and still manages to be more impressive and well thought out than what entire CDPR's gameplay team have accomplished.

While you're correct on "no budget" I'll disagree on education and experience (in the "professional sense probably, as a game developer they obviously have plenty).
This is a prime example of how mods can enhance a game and the author is to be commended.

 

[Sardukhar]

This was done by an adolescent with no "budget", education or actual experience and still manages to be more impressive and well thought out than what entire CDPR's gameplay team have accomplished.

Disagree. I tried this mod and was underwhelmed. Especially not a fan of the stamina changes, slowed me down a fair bit. Reverted to original.

It's also totally unfair to suggest that this guy outdid CDPR. He altered their work from what it was to what he ( and you like) but that's 1/100 the effort and skill than developing and integrating it into the game.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Eh, it's been a while, but as I remember Bloodlines played pretty much as action game, combat wise. Those elements were poorly done, but think that had little to do with rpg mechanics outside of budget concerns( which CDPR has covered).

A solid combat system with poorly directed fights and sub-par AI, worse than HL2. If this meme still alive after 13 years than the combat of Bloodlines did have straight as rail connection with rpg mechanics. The only reason for CP2077 to not wiring combat with rpg sytem is popamole pandering. And popamole popularity is on decline so better see popamole on suicide watch, since TW3 CDP RED can sell any complex RPG if it's good enough game. Might develop good taste for games on wider audience. Fallout: New Vegas outdid Fallout 3 while being more complex game, even if problematic at start.

This was done by an adolescent with no "budget", education or actual experience and still manages to be more impressive and well thought out than what entire CDPR's gameplay team have accomplished.

Soulsborne on The Witcher 3 base does not look, work or even belong solid enough, that's what this mod tells first and foremost. Yeah, From Software want their "knowledge" back BTW. /s

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Disagree. I tried this mod and was underwhelmed. Especially not a fan of the stamina changes, slowed me down a fair bit. Reverted to original.

It's also totally unfair to suggest that this guy outdid CDPR. He altered their work from what it was to what he ( and you like) but that's 1/100 the effort and skill than developing and integrating it into the game.

True, but the point is that it's a shame devs didn't put more effort in fine tuning game mechanics...requires little time and effort compared to already done ground work before hand. Kind of like running a marathon and throwing in the towel ten meters before the finish line.
More "light" approach" to this ( Assassin's Creed, Arkham series, etc) is fine for 20h game, but for games of this size, you really need a system that requires constant player attention. ( Or at least design it for highest difficulty).

 

[Sardukhar]

True, but the point is that it's a shame devs didn't put more effort in fine tuning game mechanics...requires little time and effort compared to already done ground work before hand. Kind of like running a marathon and throwing in the towel ten meters before the finish line..

That's a huge and totally incorrect assumption. Unless more than one dev is lying to me, (kind of unlikely, since I already like the W3 gameplay, they don't need to change my mind) they've said many times W3 gameplay took for-EVER to get right, with many, many, many attempts, balances, changes, changes again, more balances, more fine tuning. Forever. It was a huge timesink before they were (mostly) happy with it.

Someone else comes along later and changes it to their preferences doesn't make them brilliant, just different in taste.

The issue isn't the gameplay - it's what people like in gameplay. I loved it. My kids loved it. Every one of my friends, including huge DS fan, loved it. Because it's fun and exciting and makes you feel like a monster-hunting badass. *

The devs went with it because it was what they wanted. And I'm pleased, if they'd gone with something like Bloodborne or DS I would have been disappointed.

*Crossbow under water part was stupid and sucked. Arguably crossbow altogether sucked. Apparently that was a whole other issue.

 

[Suhiira]

Game balance issues are ALWAYS a matter of taste.
It's the core mechanics that one should look at, not the details like how much stamina it costs to run. Should stamina be used at all? How?

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

That's a huge and totally incorrect assumption. Unless more than one dev is lying to me, (kind of unlikely, since I already like the W3 gameplay, they don't need to change my mind) they've said many times W3 gameplay took for-EVER to get right, with many, many, many attempts, balances, changes, changes again, more balances, more fine tuning. Forever. It was a huge timesink before they were (mostly) happy with it.

Someone else comes along later and changes it to their preferences doesn't make them brilliant, just different in taste.

The issue isn't the gameplay - it's what people like in gameplay. I loved it. My kids loved it. Every one of my friends, including huge DS fan, loved it. Because it's fun and exciting and makes you feel like a monster-hunting badass. *

The devs went with it because it was what they wanted. And I'm pleased, if they'd gone with something like Bloodborne or DS I would have been disappointed.

*Crossbow under water part was stupid and sucked. Arguably crossbow altogether sucked. Apparently that was a whole other issue.

Imo, it suffers from both actually... not committing itself fully to a specific design goal/developed to fullest potential while being over-engineered at the same time.
CDPR main problem (when it comes to designing gameplay and gameplay mechanics) isn't their developers being "lazy"...it is lack of overall clear "identity", goal and coherency in it's systems. Their biggest mistakes are at most fundamental aspects of design and how they correlate to one another.

Example: Witcher leveling system.

From the start it was designed as +++ linear system of largely passive upgrades to player character: through direct level ups, acquiring loot and mutagens: which conflicted more open structure of the game ( when it comes to questing and exploration), and should have used a more "branching" ( into variety of different playstyles) design instead.
* With well designed games, their narrative and gameplay systems follow the same principles

And they tried to fix this with artificial restrictions, but ended up creating a chain reaction of problems with other systems, by:

- Restricting access to abilities through "slot skills" system...but this had a negative impact on leveling once player acquires enough skills( and is illogical and inorganic way to bar progression)

- Restricting access to equipment based on player "level"...which is illogical and combined with crafting makes plenty of loot simply useless, when you actually reach the requirement ( as by then, you will often already acquire something better)

- Enemy de/buffs based on their difference to player level...which created inorganic approach to enemy and player/encounter design, instead of using accurate visual/audio clues to distinguish level of threat

- Acquired Loot being based on player level, instead of that of enemy ...which had a negative impact on open world exploration and artificially "stiffled" progression

- Quests giving experience based on player level( which becomes a bigger issue when player is eventually over-levelled, hard to avoid in games of this size)...exactly the same as above

- Lastly, global level scaling ( along with New Game +)...which contradicts player's narrative set role in the world ( as even a common rat becomes more powerful than "legendary monster hunter")

Ironically none of this corrected the main problem( game being simply too damn big) and all this could have been avoided with better planning of leveling system from the start (that is better suited to the open world structure of the game)...with far less effort, they would have better results.

And similar issues we can see in individual systems... Combat: crossover between Souls/Arkham systems , Loot/economy( at the same time designed "light" as to require little use of investment in resources while continuously offering massive amount of it), crafting ( missing the basic premise ( see Morrowind spell crafting ), while making it too convoluted with busywork and shoehorning as many ingredients to make vast quantities of loot "more useful").

Why am I mentioning this here? Because each of these systems will be hundred times more complex in Cyberpunk and they will need to work together far better to emulate moment to moment gameplay decision making that this kind of setting will require.

And for this, imho, their approach to gameplay design has to be completely different than in Witcher series, instead of simply trying to do better/putting more work into it.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Game balance issues are ALWAYS a matter of taste.
It's the core mechanics that one should look at, not the details like how much stamina it costs to run. Should stamina be used at all? How?

I disagree. A simple script ( which anyone can make in less than a minute) to make timing of blocking/skill factor stamina reliant makes a huge difference in how you play. Or Bayonetta's dodge offset when it comes to evasion. Gears of War reload. Nioh's Ki mechanics.
These "small things" can have a huge impact on having the player far more invested in moment to moment gameplay.

This could be more fine tuned through difficulty settings, but think this is a far better way to go about it than changing hitpoint/damage ratios, which only add tedium or make it unrealistically punishing on higher settings.

 

[Suhiira]

I disagree. A simple script ( which anyone can make in less than a minute) to make timing of blocking/skill factor stamina reliant makes a huge difference in how you play. Or Bayonetta's dodge offset when it comes to evasion. Gears of War reload. Nioh's Ki mechanics.
These "small things" can have a huge impact on having the player far more invested in moment to moment gameplay.

This could be more fine tuned through difficulty settings, but think this is a far better way to go about it than changing hitpoint/damage ratios, which only add tedium or make it unrealistically punishing on higher settings.

Again ... a matter of personal taste.
You obviously prefer action games, so to you the related game mechanics and responsive controls are vital. I on the other hand have little-to-no interest in action games so to me such things are fairly irrelevant.

 

[Dicarus]

How much RPG will this actually be?

I am deeply concerned when most people here just want a generic shooter with stats ala Fallout or Skyrim. People vowing not to buy the game if it's turn based, scorning dice roll based mechanics - do you even enjoy RPGs? If you want character statistics to be meaningless aside from rudimentary things such as "health" or "stamina", why not just, play one of the billions of other "RPGs" like Skyrim?

I for one, would IMMENSELY enjoy an RPG that returns to the roots - turn based, isometric, heavily stat-based and maybe just a dash of luck to get your blood pumping. That's how the real RPGs were like: Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights and I am certain I'm not alone in this.

I understand that exploration, immersion and graphics are greatly aided by first or third person camera, but is it truly necessary to be forced? Best solution would be to allow players to pick either the action-shooty way of playing, or classic RPG way of turns and top-down view as an option, but I'm sure the RPG element would be crippled by forcing the player to replace his character's skills with the player's own skill. I'm also expecting a great level of lethality from combat just like in the P&P, which I imagine would greatly frustrate casual players who just want a mindless cakewalk experience.

So my question for people who enjoy the modern Fallout and Skyrim kind of games - why not just play those? Why make all the devs do the same thing over and over again? There's plenty of shooters around, there's plenty of "RPGs" around like Borderlands too.
And final question: how will the game actually play?

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

I am deeply concerned when most people here just want a generic shooter with stats ala Fallout or Skyrim. People vowing not to buy the game if it's turn based, scorning dice roll based mechanics - do you even enjoy RPGs? If you want character statistics to be meaningless aside from rudimentary things such as "health" or "stamina", why not just, play one of the billions of other "RPGs" like Skyrim?

Actually, there are far, far more classic rpg's released even today than "generic shooters" with stats like Fallout or Skyrim.

I for one, would IMMENSELY enjoy an RPG that returns to the roots - turn based, isometric, heavily stat-based and maybe just a dash of luck to get your blood pumping. That's how the real RPGs were like: Fallout, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights and I am certain I'm not alone in this.
I understand that exploration, immersion and graphics are greatly aided by first or third person camera, but is it truly necessary to be forced? Best solution would be to allow players to pick either the action-shooty way of playing, or classic RPG way of turns and top-down view as an option, but I'm sure the RPG element would be crippled by forcing the player to replace his character's skills with the player's own skill. I'm also expecting a great level of lethality from combat just like in the P&P, which I imagine would greatly frustrate casual players who just want a mindless cakewalk experience.

Those are all preferences and how gameplay is designed has to be fitting for the type of game it takes place in...no gameplay system is inherently good on it's own. And they do not have unlimited time and budget to appeal to everyone.

 

[Dicarus]

Actually, there are far, far more classic rpg's released even today than "generic shooters" with stats like Fallout or Skyrim.

Please list me some because I am genuinely starving for those.

And while no gameplay system is inherently good on its own, some are just objectively inferior to others. I actually do not believe anybody enjoys mashing LMB to swing a sword at bullet (sword?) sponge enemy slowly watching his healthbar tick down with no stats other than health, damage and enemy damage going into consideration.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Please list me some because I am genuinely starving for those.

Unless I'm wrong, only Bethesda and Bioware( along with CDPR) release AAA action rpgs of this type...and they take all take long to develop. Crpgs are not as prominent but come in greater numbers: Obsidian, Inxile, Larian, HBS and dozen or more smaller titles from indie developers ( Underrail, Age of Decadence, etc...).
They simply do not receive as much media exposure.

And while no gameplay system is inherently good on its own, some are just objectively inferior to others. I actually do not believe anybody enjoys mashing LMB to swing a sword at bullet (sword?) sponge enemy slowly watching his healthbar tick down with no stats other than health, damage and enemy damage going into consideration.

Again those are subjective points...ans every gameplay system can be trivialized: not everyone enjoys combat dictated by character spreadsheet numbers either and like to be fully in control of character's actions.
In the end it is CDPR's choice how they wish to develop it.

 

[Suhiira]

I am deeply concerned when most people here just want a generic shooter with stats ala Fallout or Skyrim.

We just have to trust CDPR and Mike not to let that happen.

One major advantage we have is CDPR is it's own publisher, so it doesn't have anyone breathing down it's neck to pander to the "most profitable" market. Nor screaming at them to get it out before it's finished because this quarters profit margin is far more important then a quality product.