I'm mostly interested in RPGs because of the way they tell a story and allow me to take part in it. other mechanics are secondary to me. I prefer a more action-oriented approach and a non-top-down view, but I don't actually mind the opposite.
because I already played them? because I find the theme of Cyberpunk interesting? because I liked CDPR's previous games? it's not like there are tons of (let's call them) "rpg-lites" either. there are Bioware and Bethesda games and I can't think of anything else.Dicarus;n8285210 said:
Is my use of the definition of "rpg-lites" catching on here? XDlord_blex;n8287080 said:
Anyway... what I was going to say... don't forget CDPR... because as much as the Witcher games might be stronger in some of the aspects of "rpg" compared to other companies Action RPG's (which all of these games are... ARPG... so for example Biowares Mass Effect series and DA2 and DA Inquisition, or Bethesdas Fallout and Elder Scrolls games, including CDPR Witcher games)... they are still very much so "rpg-lites" on the whole character stats, and combat aspect, etc, of it all. Atleast in my mind.
Obsidian Entertainments game "Alpha Protocol" was also very much so an ARPG in the same kind of style as Mass Effect was. They also made Fallout New Vegas too. Of course in the past several years they have been making cRPG's, with Pillars of Eternity and Tyranny... but that is understandable really... seeing as Obsidian rose out of the ashes of Black Isle Studios, the company which made Fallout 2, and a lot of the people who work on Obsidian also made Fallout 1... and I do think they also had atleast some connection to Bioware as well when it came to the making of Baldurs Gate. So I am not surpriced that Obsidian went back to making some really good cRPG's again.
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I would also have to agree that there are actually a lot more "proper/full rpg's", cRPG's, etc, that come out... then these ARPG and RPG-lite games.
I think the big difference though is that the ARPG/RPG-lites games get a lot more attention and a much larger marketing pushes, where loads of money is pumped into marketing so that people actually know about them. Where as the "proper rpg's", the cRPG's, etc, do not get a lot of money pumped into marketing (they can't afford it really)... usually due to that the companies which make them are often a lot smaller then the companies which makes ARPG's. Even CDPR is for the most part much larger then some of these cRPG making companies. CDPR has never had to go the route of Kickstarter to get their games made after all... and this is partly due to the fact that the Witcher games do basicly end up in the ARPG section of games, a section which does have a much larger player base.... which makes up another difference between these genres of games.
That difference being that a lot more people like to play ARPG's, then cRPG's. And many of these ARPG types of gamers tends to find "cRPG" way to complicated and/or boring (my brother being one of them... the only proper cRPG that he has ever liked playing was Dragon Age: Origins... but he is still in the firm opinion that Dragon Age 2 is THE best Dragon Age game ever made... an opinions which I do not agree with... DAO is to me the clear winner amongst the Dragon Age games).
Most people just do not have the patience, or will, or desire, to play anything more complex then Mass Effect or Skyrim, or the new Deus Ex games, or even the Witcher games... they don't want to have to think all to much, just mash a few buttons and kill some shit, get a bit of good story, and get to effect said story in some way... (where some of these games have better stories then others, like the Witcher games for example which tend to be in the top tier in that aspect). But once you start to addin more complex things, like actual character stats and skills and what not, which actually effects the game in some significant ways, like the old Baldurs Gate, or Neverwinter Nights, or the original two Fallout games, or Dragon Age: Origins, and all these new cRPG's, etc... then a lot of these players eyes start to glaze over, as they either start to become bored with these kinds of games, and even a few of them are actually mentally not capable of dealing with all of these stats and skills and what not.... because what they like is a lot more constant action based, where there are almost no downtimes to tamper with something like stats and skills etc.
Heck... that is still as true now as it was back in the "golden age" of cRPG's (mid 90's to about early 00's)... because as much as games like Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Night might have sold, Diable (an ARPG) sold a lot more. Fallout 1 and 2's sales figures from back then are not really all that high in comparison either, not even today... I seem to recall reading gamingnews back in 2008 or 2009 or so, that Bethesdas Fallout 3 outsold ALL previous Fallout games combined in the first week of FO3's relese. Which compleatly comes down to that there are just way more people out there which are willing to play ARPG's, then cRPG's.
I personally prefer cRPG's over ARPG's... if I have a choice in the matter I would always want a game to be a full proper cRPG. But don't get me wrong here though... I still highly like ARPG's as well, and don't really think that cRPG's are superior to ARPG's at all, they are for the most part just different. And after all, on my top favorit games list, an ARPG game series places it's self higher then the highest cRPG game for me. It's just that game mechanicswise and statswise, and other such things, I tend to end up compleatly prefering cRPG types of mechanics and stats, etc. The reason for that is that I really like pen and paper rpg's, and any game which feels like I am playing an actual pen and paper rpg is instantly a win in my book. Fallout 1 and 2 where the first ever videogames I played which made me feel like I was playing a pen and paper rpg, and I have loved those kinds of videogames since then.
Games like Fallout 3-4, or the Elder Scrolls games (especially the last 2), or Deus Ex (especially the last 2), or even the Witcher series... to me they just don't feel like I am playing a pen and paper rpg... the closest thing I could compare them to in the roleplaying world, is things like LARPing... seeing as when you LARP parts of your own actual skill with it can matter a lot more... atleast a lot more then it ever would (or should) when it comes to pen and paper rpg's.
Anyway...
The list of new "proper/full cRPG" games which has come out in the last few years though has been larger then usual actually... thanks to the whole kickstarter thing, which showed that there are still a market out there with people wanting to play and buy cRPG's... a genre which basicly all big gaming companies, and/or (especially) the financiers and distribution companies, had for the most part abandoned some 10-15 years ago because they did not sell enough in their mind.
The list of new (or "new-ish") cRPG games that I can think of is below... and some of these has already been mentioned by others... but I will mention them again:
Divinity: Original Sin
Dragon Age: Origins
Legend of Grimrock
Legend of Grimrock II
Pillars of Eternity
Shadowrun: Returns
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Shadowrun: Hong Kong
Torment: Tides of Numenaria
Tyranny
Wasteland 2
And currently there are also a few cRPG's being worked on right now, that I know of, that will come out soon or in a couple of years or so.
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pillars of Eternity 2
Wasteland 3
There are probably more, and I probably know more of them (but have just temporarily forgoten about them)... but it is hard to keep track of them all... due to the sheer number of games (in general, not only cRPG's) that tend to come out every year. XD
I will say one thing though... the one genre which I feel has been highly underrepresented amongst cRPG's... is actually the Sci-Fi genre... especially the section of sci-fi that is not the post-apocalyptic kinds... you know the Bladerunner, Star Trek, Farscapes, Firefly, The Expanse, BattleTech/MechWarrior, Mass Effect, Cyberpunk 2020, etc, etc, etc, kinds of sci-fi. These kinds of Sci-Fi is extremely rare amongst cRPG's, which I think is a huge shame. Which is why I have been one of the vocal advokates on this forum for that I would want Cyberpunk 2077 to be much closer to a cRPG... where your characters stats and skills and what not are more importent then the players own skill in controlling a mouse and keyboard. Of course, considering CDPR's previous games, that does to a degree look unlikely, but at the same time some of the things CDPR has said over the last 4-5 years has to some degree indicated that we might just get a game which is a bit more stat and skill heavy compared to for example the Witcher. It's still uncertain though exactly what it will be... I will probably like it anyway, no matter what they make though... XD
I think the big difference though is that the ARPG/RPG-lites games get a lot more attention and a much larger marketing pushes, where loads of money is pumped into marketing so that people actually know about them. Where as the "proper rpg's", the cRPG's, etc, do not get a lot of money pumped into marketing (they can't afford it really)... usually due to that the companies which make them are often a lot smaller then the companies which makes ARPG's. Even CDPR is for the most part much larger then some of these cRPG making companies. CDPR has never had to go the route of Kickstarter to get their games made after all... and this is partly due to the fact that the Witcher games do basicly end up in the ARPG section of games, a section which does have a much larger player base.... which makes up another difference between these genres of games.
That difference being that a lot more people like to play ARPG's, then cRPG's. And many of these ARPG types of gamers tends to find "cRPG" way to complicated and/or boring (my brother being one of them... the only proper cRPG that he has ever liked playing was Dragon Age: Origins... but he is still in the firm opinion that Dragon Age 2 is THE best Dragon Age game ever made... an opinions which I do not agree with... DAO is to me the clear winner amongst the Dragon Age games).
Most people just do not have the patience, or will, or desire, to play anything more complex then Mass Effect or Skyrim, or the new Deus Ex games, or even the Witcher games... they don't want to have to think all to much, just mash a few buttons and kill some shit, get a bit of good story, and get to effect said story in some way... (where some of these games have better stories then others, like the Witcher games for example which tend to be in the top tier in that aspect). But once you start to addin more complex things, like actual character stats and skills and what not, which actually effects the game in some significant ways, like the old Baldurs Gate, or Neverwinter Nights, or the original two Fallout games, or Dragon Age: Origins, and all these new cRPG's, etc... then a lot of these players eyes start to glaze over, as they either start to become bored with these kinds of games, and even a few of them are actually mentally not capable of dealing with all of these stats and skills and what not.... because what they like is a lot more constant action based, where there are almost no downtimes to tamper with something like stats and skills etc.
Heck... that is still as true now as it was back in the "golden age" of cRPG's (mid 90's to about early 00's)... because as much as games like Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter Night might have sold, Diable (an ARPG) sold a lot more. Fallout 1 and 2's sales figures from back then are not really all that high in comparison either, not even today... I seem to recall reading gamingnews back in 2008 or 2009 or so, that Bethesdas Fallout 3 outsold ALL previous Fallout games combined in the first week of FO3's relese. Which compleatly comes down to that there are just way more people out there which are willing to play ARPG's, then cRPG's.
I personally prefer cRPG's over ARPG's... if I have a choice in the matter I would always want a game to be a full proper cRPG. But don't get me wrong here though... I still highly like ARPG's as well, and don't really think that cRPG's are superior to ARPG's at all, they are for the most part just different. And after all, on my top favorit games list, an ARPG game series places it's self higher then the highest cRPG game for me. It's just that game mechanicswise and statswise, and other such things, I tend to end up compleatly prefering cRPG types of mechanics and stats, etc. The reason for that is that I really like pen and paper rpg's, and any game which feels like I am playing an actual pen and paper rpg is instantly a win in my book. Fallout 1 and 2 where the first ever videogames I played which made me feel like I was playing a pen and paper rpg, and I have loved those kinds of videogames since then.
Games like Fallout 3-4, or the Elder Scrolls games (especially the last 2), or Deus Ex (especially the last 2), or even the Witcher series... to me they just don't feel like I am playing a pen and paper rpg... the closest thing I could compare them to in the roleplaying world, is things like LARPing... seeing as when you LARP parts of your own actual skill with it can matter a lot more... atleast a lot more then it ever would (or should) when it comes to pen and paper rpg's.
Anyway...
The list of new "proper/full cRPG" games which has come out in the last few years though has been larger then usual actually... thanks to the whole kickstarter thing, which showed that there are still a market out there with people wanting to play and buy cRPG's... a genre which basicly all big gaming companies, and/or (especially) the financiers and distribution companies, had for the most part abandoned some 10-15 years ago because they did not sell enough in their mind.
The list of new (or "new-ish") cRPG games that I can think of is below... and some of these has already been mentioned by others... but I will mention them again:
Divinity: Original Sin
Dragon Age: Origins
Legend of Grimrock
Legend of Grimrock II
Pillars of Eternity
Shadowrun: Returns
Shadowrun: Dragonfall
Shadowrun: Hong Kong
Torment: Tides of Numenaria
Tyranny
Wasteland 2
And currently there are also a few cRPG's being worked on right now, that I know of, that will come out soon or in a couple of years or so.
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Pillars of Eternity 2
Wasteland 3
There are probably more, and I probably know more of them (but have just temporarily forgoten about them)... but it is hard to keep track of them all... due to the sheer number of games (in general, not only cRPG's) that tend to come out every year. XD
I will say one thing though... the one genre which I feel has been highly underrepresented amongst cRPG's... is actually the Sci-Fi genre... especially the section of sci-fi that is not the post-apocalyptic kinds... you know the Bladerunner, Star Trek, Farscapes, Firefly, The Expanse, BattleTech/MechWarrior, Mass Effect, Cyberpunk 2020, etc, etc, etc, kinds of sci-fi. These kinds of Sci-Fi is extremely rare amongst cRPG's, which I think is a huge shame. Which is why I have been one of the vocal advokates on this forum for that I would want Cyberpunk 2077 to be much closer to a cRPG... where your characters stats and skills and what not are more importent then the players own skill in controlling a mouse and keyboard. Of course, considering CDPR's previous games, that does to a degree look unlikely, but at the same time some of the things CDPR has said over the last 4-5 years has to some degree indicated that we might just get a game which is a bit more stat and skill heavy compared to for example the Witcher. It's still uncertain though exactly what it will be... I will probably like it anyway, no matter what they make though... XD
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Suhiira;n8291750 said:
look there is one thing to say "hey i would like some old school turn based rpgs to come out" and a totaly diffrent thing to say that RPG games SHOULD BE turn based
its not about an opinion here
these people talk about it like its a fact
that REAL rpg games are turn based
Loved DIV:OS, can't wait for sequel, I went into Wasteland 2 with a Fallout mindset but it was a Baldur's Gate with radiation, so I'll have to try that later, Legend of Grimrock is more of a puzzle game with RPG elements than a full blooded RPG, someone mentioned Underrail and Age of Decadence, I'll look into those along with Shadowrun; but my point still stands - this is a mere drop in the sea of games like Dying Light, Dead Island, Skyrim, modern Fallouts, Borderlands, Mass Effects etc etc.Calistarius;n8289940 said:
Dicarus;n8292210 said:
Yeah, Dying Light wasn't an RPG at all. Not even rpg-light. I liked it and played it, but no, they weren't event trying for Skyrim-ish. Neither was Borderlands. Nor the modern CoD. Nor lots of other games with character skills.
The amount of games you listed doesn't even outnumber the amount of games Su listed, so, yeah. Your drop in the sea argument doesn't hold water.
If you're saying every game that has player character stats counts as RPG-lite, I will insist that every turn-based game is also an RPG - including all strategy games. Preposterous.
@samoilaaa Do not say "I'm sick of people like you I really am." I don't care why you feel that way, do it again and infraction. Applies to anyone else who thinks they get to be nasty around here over a definition.
Dicarus;n8285210 said:
I share the concern. I'm tired of these types of games pouring over left and right. Those gazillion Dark Souls clones being close to the worst offenders.
As for the topic question... Hopefully very much so. I don't think the game'll end up turnbased, but I hope the early on implied "tactical mode" will provide something to that end (check Wizardry 8 combat for reference). I hope there are plenty of skils and I hope they will be used to heavily impact gameplay... Not merely damage increments for guns, but how the weapon handles (accuracy, recoil, firing speed, reload times, holstering/unholstering...). Weighted probabilities for out-of-combat skill uses (behind the screen dicerolls), not merely skillgates that never say maybe, but allways simply either "yes" or "no". All skills affecting dialog options. I want (and hope for) all the numbercrunching (or character management, for a better term) goodness and interactivity and high end roleplaying opportunities I get from the oldschool games like the "real" Fallout games (1&2) or Wizardry 8.
I'm not going to get my dreamgame here (though I hope CDPR will monetize with the popularity of the oldschool RPG niche somehow), but if there was a scale where I would hope I could roughly put CP2077 in, it would look something like this.
RPG-----X----I----------Shooter
RPG (Fallout 1&2, Planescape: Torment, etc)
Shooter (any generic "shooter with stats")
I (the "perfect middle ground" where everything is shit because neither the action nor the RPG have been done right, and both have sacrificed too much of the core elements of what makes their respective genres fun to play)
X (CP2077 -- leaning clearly more towards the RPG than the shooter side)
Zagor-Te-Nay;n8286270 said:
Spiders (Mars Warlogs, Technomancer...), Piranha Bytes (Risen, ELEX), Deck 13 (Lords of the Fallen...), From Software (Dark Souls), Eidos Montreal (nu-Deus Ex), Bioware, Bethesda, CDPR, Guerrilla Games (Horizon Zero Dawn), Obsidian (when working with a publisher), RealityPump (Two Worlds...). I'm probably missing few.
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samoilaaa;n8294460 said:
There's no hate. There's just a tiring oversupply.
Calistarius;n8289940 said:
I'm not sure this is the case...plenty of "old school" rpg's allow more options ( in char building, factions, choice and consequence, approach to quests) than you'll find in modern( more action oriented) examples, but when it comes to direct problem solving ? Not even close when compared to old adventure games (even more "mainstream" ones)...not to mention strategy, management simulation or puzzle games.
"Dumbing down" is a wrong term when it comes to rpg's...it presumes rpg's were particularly intellectually demanding genre to begin with.
You don't need a genius IQ to understand that putting points into charisma makes you a better diplomat, choices in most rpg's are typically black/white-ish ( with very predictable consequences) and picking positive/friendly dialogue options almost always leads to best results.
New Vegas requires little more "intelligence" to play than Fallout IV...it simply offers a wider variety of options, is more responsive when it comes to your choices, and is somewhat less accessible.
So if this game is real time action based, I would say it absolutely incorrect to state it would make it more "dumb" game to play than turn based one...quite the opposite : ( from my experience) shooters like Intruder or even highly popular ones like R6S are far, far more tactically challenging/stimulating than Pillars, DOS or many older "hardcore" rpgs. And real time action makes every decision feel more intense.
And Crom laughs from high mountain at anyone who thinks that any of these can compare to popular MMO's like E.V.E in terms of understanding and managing gameplay mechanics. Or go ahead and give Dwarf Fortress a try.
Rpg's are great as genre that allows highest level of expression through gameplay, but ( for the most part) their mechanics are fairly straightforward and easy to grasp.
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Zagor-Te-Nay;n8294550 said:
You give your fellow man too much credit. Those "straightforward and easy to grasp" mechanics are constantly being trimmed down and simplified (have been for years) in order to offer ever more straightforward experiences, and not least because people take them for being confusing.
kofeiiniturpa;n8294430 said:
And for each of these there are at least two or more, "crpgs" in comparison. 2016 and coming
Acaratus (Early Access) 2017 TBA
Aeon of Sands: The Trail TBA
Age of Grit- IQSoup- TBA
Amazing Fantastics, The TBA
Arakion TBA
Archmage Rises TBA
Arelite Core (Alpha Demo) TBA
Bard's Tale IV- inXile- TBA
Barkley 2
Battle Brothers-
Battlecursed Q1 2017
Battletech- Harebrained Schemes- TBA 2017?
Bevontule 2017 TBA
BlackFaun (Early Access) TBA
Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness TBA
Bloodgate (Early Access) TBA
Bloom: Memories Studio Fawn TBA
Celestian Tales: Realms Beyond TBA
Champions of Anteria August 30, 2016
Colony Ship RPG Irontower Studios TBA
Copper Dreams Whalenought Studios 2017 TBA
Dark Trails TBA
Defenders of Naxia 2017 TBA
Divinity: Original Sin 2 Larian Studios TBA 2017?
Dungeons of Aledorn TBA
Exanima (prelude to Sui Generis) Bare Mettle Entertainment
Expeditions: Viking: Logic Artists Q1 2017
Fallen Gods: Wormwood Studios TBA
Fictorum
Frayed Knights 2: TBA
Frontier (Early Access) TBA
Frontiers: (Early Access) TBA
Frozen State (Early Access) TBA
Graywalkers: Purgatory:
Great Whale Road, The:
Healer's Quest Q4 2016
Heroes of Monkey Tavern TBA
Hero- U: Rogue to Redemption TBA
Hobo: Tough Life TBA
Insomnia
Kenshi (Early Access) TBA
Kim (Early Access) TBA
Knights of the Chalice 2
Lords of Xulima 2: Numantian Games TBA
Mage's Initiation: Reign of the Elements Himalaya Studios TBA
Mandate, The: TBA
Master's Eye, The: (Alpha Demo) TBA
Memory of Eldurim, The (Early Access) TBA
Meridian Shard, The: TBA
Meriwether Q4 2016
Niffelheim (Early Access) TBA
No Truce With the Furies: Q4 2016
One Samurai: Dusk TBA
Paradise Never TBA
Pathway- Robotality TBA
Planet Explorers (Early Access) TBA
Project Resurgence TBA
Project Zomboid (Early Access)
Prisonscape TBA
Purgatory: Echoes from the Void Q4 2016
Return 2 Games: Book of Demons
Seven TBA
Seven Dragon Saga TBA
Spy DNA TBA
Skullstone TBA
Starcrawlers (Early Access) TBA
Stellar Tactics TBA (Early Access)
Stygian: Reign of the Old Ones TBA
Synpase- TBA
Swords & Sorcery: Sovereign Q1 2017
Tanzia Q4 2016?
Tempest (Early Access) TBA
Toby's Island TBA
Torment: Tides of Numenera (Early Access) TBA 2017
Tyranny Obsidian Entertainment Q4 2016
Unbended TBA
Underworld Ascendant TBA
Vaporum TBA
Vigilantes TB tactical Mafia RPG
Warbanners TBA 2017
West of Loathing TBA
Witanlore: Dreamtime TBA
Witchmarsh- Inglenook TBA
Wolcen: Lords of Mayhem (Early Access) TBA
Xenonauts 2 2017 TBA
Zunyrook TBA
Aeon of Sands: The Trail TBA
Age of Grit- IQSoup- TBA
Amazing Fantastics, The TBA
Arakion TBA
Archmage Rises TBA
Arelite Core (Alpha Demo) TBA
Bard's Tale IV- inXile- TBA
Barkley 2
Battle Brothers-
Battlecursed Q1 2017
Battletech- Harebrained Schemes- TBA 2017?
Bevontule 2017 TBA
BlackFaun (Early Access) TBA
Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness TBA
Bloodgate (Early Access) TBA
Bloom: Memories Studio Fawn TBA
Celestian Tales: Realms Beyond TBA
Champions of Anteria August 30, 2016
Colony Ship RPG Irontower Studios TBA
Copper Dreams Whalenought Studios 2017 TBA
Dark Trails TBA
Defenders of Naxia 2017 TBA
Divinity: Original Sin 2 Larian Studios TBA 2017?
Dungeons of Aledorn TBA
Exanima (prelude to Sui Generis) Bare Mettle Entertainment
Expeditions: Viking: Logic Artists Q1 2017
Fallen Gods: Wormwood Studios TBA
Fictorum
Frayed Knights 2: TBA
Frontier (Early Access) TBA
Frontiers: (Early Access) TBA
Frozen State (Early Access) TBA
Graywalkers: Purgatory:
Great Whale Road, The:
Healer's Quest Q4 2016
Heroes of Monkey Tavern TBA
Hero- U: Rogue to Redemption TBA
Hobo: Tough Life TBA
Insomnia
Kenshi (Early Access) TBA
Kim (Early Access) TBA
Knights of the Chalice 2
Lords of Xulima 2: Numantian Games TBA
Mage's Initiation: Reign of the Elements Himalaya Studios TBA
Mandate, The: TBA
Master's Eye, The: (Alpha Demo) TBA
Memory of Eldurim, The (Early Access) TBA
Meridian Shard, The: TBA
Meriwether Q4 2016
Niffelheim (Early Access) TBA
No Truce With the Furies: Q4 2016
One Samurai: Dusk TBA
Paradise Never TBA
Pathway- Robotality TBA
Planet Explorers (Early Access) TBA
Project Resurgence TBA
Project Zomboid (Early Access)
Prisonscape TBA
Purgatory: Echoes from the Void Q4 2016
Return 2 Games: Book of Demons
Seven TBA
Seven Dragon Saga TBA
Spy DNA TBA
Skullstone TBA
Starcrawlers (Early Access) TBA
Stellar Tactics TBA (Early Access)
Stygian: Reign of the Old Ones TBA
Synpase- TBA
Swords & Sorcery: Sovereign Q1 2017
Tanzia Q4 2016?
Tempest (Early Access) TBA
Toby's Island TBA
Torment: Tides of Numenera (Early Access) TBA 2017
Tyranny Obsidian Entertainment Q4 2016
Unbended TBA
Underworld Ascendant TBA
Vaporum TBA
Vigilantes TB tactical Mafia RPG
Warbanners TBA 2017
West of Loathing TBA
Witanlore: Dreamtime TBA
Witchmarsh- Inglenook TBA
Wolcen: Lords of Mayhem (Early Access) TBA
Xenonauts 2 2017 TBA
Zunyrook TBA
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Is this a "my list is bigger than yours" competition? I only gave you a list of names you didn't consider. Everyone knows there's a million indies in the making, and everyone also knows that most of them are of dubious quality and likely end up not worth for shit, or are heard of only by a handful of people. What of it?
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kofeiiniturpa;n8294770 said:
Simply an example...same can be said for "quality" of many action rpgs.
We all have different preferences here, but most ( at least on forums) want something of more complexity than Fallout or Skyrim.
What I dislike is immediate jumping to hyperboles ( It will be COD 2077!) or saying anything modern is immediately "dumbed down" in every respect. For example, last Mass Effect has far more in depth character progression and customization ( at least concerning playstyles) than plenty of old school rpgs.
Yeah, my experience with complex gameplay games like WoW, and R6 is that their challenges are pretty simple in terms of strategy and more complex in terms of tactics. But they are puzzle-complex, not emotionally or intellectually challenging complex. How do I kill that or get there.
I found the Baron's choice in W3 much more challenging than the hardest boss in a progression raid I ever had to tank or the toughest tactical situation in Xcom. Because there were no easy answers.
"Dumbing down" is a quite accurate term in modern RPGs, because the games require less of your intellect and your comprehension of story than they used to in games like Torment or Fallout 2.
You can make the gameplay complex as all hell and it'll still be solveable by an AI or talented 14 year old with a reconfigured Rock Band guitar. But neither of those entities are likely to comprehend or struggle very much with "What can change the nature of a man?"
The challenge of actually trying to be there and understand everything that is happening to your character and maybe even how it affects you, the player.
That's the complex part of role-playing games and the part that makes them worth playing. The rest is just loot-gathering, AI-beating button-pressing.
Ah, what? I'm playing it now. It has one playstyle - one. Violence. There is no talking your way out of trouble, sneaking isn't a viable option. Melee combat is one move and rather a joke.
It's ranged with weapons or biotics. That's your playstyle.
There is no character progression in terms of skills that aren't combat related. Customization for the character is limited - there are three clothing variants and a lot more armour variants - that mostly look the same.
I say totally honestly as someone who is really enjoying MEA it is -very- RPG-lite and holds not a candle to any serious old school RPG I can think of in terms of playstyle or character progression. At all.
I found the Baron's choice in W3 much more challenging than the hardest boss in a progression raid I ever had to tank or the toughest tactical situation in Xcom. Because there were no easy answers.
"Dumbing down" is a quite accurate term in modern RPGs, because the games require less of your intellect and your comprehension of story than they used to in games like Torment or Fallout 2.
You can make the gameplay complex as all hell and it'll still be solveable by an AI or talented 14 year old with a reconfigured Rock Band guitar. But neither of those entities are likely to comprehend or struggle very much with "What can change the nature of a man?"
The challenge of actually trying to be there and understand everything that is happening to your character and maybe even how it affects you, the player.
That's the complex part of role-playing games and the part that makes them worth playing. The rest is just loot-gathering, AI-beating button-pressing.
Zagor-Te-Nay;n8294860 said:
Ah, what? I'm playing it now. It has one playstyle - one. Violence. There is no talking your way out of trouble, sneaking isn't a viable option. Melee combat is one move and rather a joke.
It's ranged with weapons or biotics. That's your playstyle.
There is no character progression in terms of skills that aren't combat related. Customization for the character is limited - there are three clothing variants and a lot more armour variants - that mostly look the same.
I say totally honestly as someone who is really enjoying MEA it is -very- RPG-lite and holds not a candle to any serious old school RPG I can think of in terms of playstyle or character progression. At all.
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Hmm... I am not sure if your actually replying to me, and what I said in the quote you have in your post there... or to someone else entirely, and accidentally quoted me.Zagor-Te-Nay;n8294550 said:
If you are actually replying to me with this post, then your putting words in my mouth which I did not use (like "dumbing down"... or that you have to be smart with a high IQ and what not), and/or compleatly missunderstanding the meaning and intention of that particular section.
What this particular section was about, the one you quoted, was essentially that the amount of people who prefer to play ARPG's, is much bigger then the crowd who prefers to play cRPG's. And then about what some of the causes of that is for some of these players... especially amongs the FPS and shooter crowd which happend to find their way to the ARPG genre of games and found that they like them (not neccesarily thanks to the RPG aspect of them though, but because of the action aspects of them which is something they already liked)... but that they still do not like cRPG's, based on a lot of variable of how cRPG's are played and the level of complexity that these games often have with various things, vs for example ARPG's.
I would not be surprieced one single bit at all if the cRPG crowd who playes ARPG's as well, is much smaller then the action oriented gamers who also happend to play ARPG's.
As for IQ and what not... What kind of thinking you have to do is different between cRPG's, and Action games (not talking about ARPG's here though... talking about FPS, Shooters, sports/driving games, etc), as well for the most part. Both can take advantage of a person with high levels of IQ... but how said IQ is used, no matter if it is high or low, changes pretty drasticly between the two... different parts of your brain needs to work more or less depending on if your playing a cRPG or an Action type of game (FPS, Shooters, sports, etc). Action types of games though usually tends to require you to have atleast ok levels of physical abilities and what not as well on top of the mind aspects of it. Which most cRPG's never require you to have at all (since you often have close to infinite amount of time on thinking how you want to deal with said situation... be it due to turnbased, being able to pause, or no timelimit on what it is your doing, etc)... here most of it revolves around your mind and your mental abilities when your allowed to spend as much time as you want on thinking how you want to solve what ever problem it is your trying to solve in the cRPG.
ARPG's tend to sort of combine these two types of things of course... but usually the Action aspect of ARPG's tend to be much bigger then the cRPG aspect of it (often by huge levels of difference to). So even if you might have to do a bit more cRPG types of thinking for ARPG's, the majority of it is still going to revolve a lot more around the action aspect of it. Most ARPG's tend to after all more borrow the story and conversation options aspect of cRPG's... rather then the stats and maths and that kind of complexity of cRPG's... the things which will most of the time be the reason why a lot of action oriented types of players do not like cRPG's.