Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[kofeiiniturpa]

The only vague parts are not knowing how exactly they'll do things

That's the important part and what I was trying to refer to. We've of course known from day one that yes, it's an RPG with some sandboxing, character customization, character progression, C&C, etc. The framework is the same for nearly all RPG's, knowing it isn't really knowing "enough" or being "very clear" about the product, in my eyes. So much stuff still behind the curtain.

I can post some sources if you want.

No need. I think I've read pretty much all there is of note so far.

 

[BadWolf3]

That's the important part and what I was trying to refer to. We've of course known from day one that yes, it's an RPG with some sandboxing, character customization, character progression, C&C, etc. The framework is the same for nearly all RPG's, knowing it isn't really knowing "enough" or being "very clear" about the product, in my eyes. So much stuff still behind the curtain.



No need. I think I've read pretty much all there is of note so far.

Nintendo were able to make a "bethesda style" open sandbox world map with the new Zelda. The points of interest, dungeons, flora, are well distanced from each other which makes exploring fun. I have no doubt CDPR can do it if Nintendo could on their first try. Of course it's safe to assume CB2077 will have a much bigger map and a lot more freedom than Zelda, tho. But that style of map design is key for an open sandbox RPG.

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

But what is true RPG then? Role Playing Games its not objective term, it is subjective and for every gamer means different things.

Planescape Torment is also not true RPG? Because it is focusing heavy on storytelling like CDPR games? Interesting, because generally Planescape is considered as one of the best CRPG ever made.


Not in every RPG main focus must be on systems, gameplay or exploration. There is also place for RPGs with heavy story, good writing and C&C

Imo pure traditional rpgs have it all in terms mechanics(leveling systems, exploration, combat, dialogue, character building, choice & consequence, story, etc..) hence why they're pure rpgs. Something like Fallout 2, KOTOR and Planescape Torment are what I call pure rpgs. The only somewhat modern non isometric pure RPG that gets close to this is Fallout New Vegas. The main problem is developers have taken soo many mechanics away from the rpg genre and mixed them into other genres which has caused massive confusion. That said not every game needs to be like this I am just stating what I feel is a pure rpg.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Nintendo were able to make a "bethesda style" open sandbox world map with the new Zelda. The points of interest, dungeons, flora, are well distanced from each other which makes exploring fun. I have no doubt CDPR can do it if Nintendo could on their first try. Of course it's safe to assume CB2077 will have a much bigger map and a lot more freedom than Zelda, tho. But that style of map design is key for an open sandbox RPG.

Suffice it to say I'm expecting quite a different experience from Cyberpunk than from a Zelda game, even if looking at just the "open world cRPG" core.

And about the "map design"... I don't think it's really "the" key. There are also other kinds of open world and sandbox maps that can work just as well and some even better depending on the design intent.

Role Playing Games its not objective term, it is subjective and for every gamer means different things.

This is a notion that really needs to die. An RPG is not what ever anyone might want it to be at any given time. It has become something of an umbrella term because these days every game wants what RPG's have (though diluted to their own purposes) even though very few games want to actually be RPG's because they're much harder to sell for the average gamer and so the lines have been blurred and every game with a hint of an RPG is called one, but even if it is harder to define than a racing game, doesn't mean it can't just as well as the said racing game.

(Elsewise you could also call Witcher 3 a fantasy sports game with a story and be right, since it has hiking, running, crosscountry versions of both, swimming, sailing, horse racing, showjumping, orienteering, mountainclimbing, fencing, archery, bullfighting (though with some other creatures than bulls), cardgame tournament and gambling, boxing, and sportfucking and so on.... )

 

[BadWolf3]

Suffice it to say I'm expecting quite a different experience from Cyberpunk than from a Zelda game, even if looking at just the "open world cRPG" core.

And about the "map design"... I don't think it's really "the" key. There are also other kinds of open world and sandbox maps that can work just as well and some even better depending on the design intent.

If there's a better way to make open sandbox world maps than to make them beautiful and fill them with unique content, can you name the games that use this better way of making an open sandbox world?

This is a notion that really needs to die. An RPG is not what ever anyone might want it to be at any given time. It has become something of an umbrella term because these days every game wants what RPG's have (though diluted to their own purposes) even though very few games want to actually be RPG's because they're much harder to sell for the average gamer and so the lines have been blurred and every game with a hint of an RPG is called one, but even if it is harder to define than a racing game, doesn't mean it can't just as well as the said racing game.

(Elsewise you could also call Witcher 3 a fantasy sports game with a story and be right, since it has hiking, running, crosscountry versions of both, swimming, sailing, horse racing, showjumping, orienteering, mountainclimbing, fencing, archery, bullfighting (though with some other creatures than bulls), cardgame tournament and gambling, boxing, and sportfucking and so on.... )

Agreed. The industry and the majority of the gaming community are mostly ok with using RPG as an umbrella term so it's pointless to go against it, but there are obviously games with more RPG elements than others. If we look at it in black and white terms, I think that when You play a Role in a game, it's your choice what to do as that role, even if it means not taking part in the main story or even sabotaging the main story so that it can't be completed. The moment your freedom to do anything as the role you play is limited, it's not a role playing game anymore in black & white terms, but it still has the RPG elements that are obviously there. I don't think it's bad to look at it as black & white, while still recognizing the RPG elements that are present, and those can be better executed than in other games that are RPGs.

 

[Sneky]

Imo pure traditional rpgs have it all in terms mechanics(leveling systems, exploration, combat, dialogue, character building, choice & consequence, story, etc..) hence why they're pure rpgs. Something like Fallout 2, KOTOR and Planescape Torment are what I call pure rpgs. The only somewhat modern non isometric pure RPG that gets close to this is Fallout New Vegas. The main problem is developers have taken soo many mechanics away from the rpg genre and mixed them into other genres which has caused massive confusion. That said not every game needs to be like this I am just stating what I feel is a pure rpg.

The thing is that even old CRPGs doesnt focusing on all these mechanics. There are CRPG that focusing on combat mechanics, and other mechanics like C&C, story,dialogue are light. There are CRPG that doesnt have character building/creator, there are CRPG which focusing on storyline, c&c, tons of writing like Planescape Torment and other rpg mechanics are pretty light etc. These are tons of different old classic role playing games. Right now is no different. One CRPG or ARPG focusing on combat mechanics, and other on story/writing/c&c, Why one game is smaller rpg than another only because it is focusing on exploration or combat or story/c&c/ etc ?

Some people thinking that they own the world "CRPG" or "RPG" and every game that isnt in their "RPG" box is not real or pure or true RPG, because reasons, and it is ridiculous, that's why im asking: What is a true/pure RPG? Because there is no consensus and never will be, because for years im seeing discusions about in on different forums with different people and it is ending always the same.

 

[0248991]

Hi, Benzenzimmern,
can you tell anything about cyberpunk at all ?

I would like to know about world size. It was somewhere described as "Far, far bigger than Witcher 3". Does it mean by world size, or by content ?
Hmm, probably both, right ?
Would you say % ratio of content is higher than in Witcher 3 ?

Asking mostly because of in Witcher 3, there were many Points ("?" on map), that were just filled with monster guarding its nest or treasure.
In this context I would prefer lesser amount of points, but with something more to explore.

 

[Suhiira]

The thing is not to confuse "open sandbox" with what passes for MMOs (or many games) these days.

Let's look at MMOs (and games in general) for a moment.

I started EverQuest during it's Beta (1999) and at that time the game was very intentionally designed for group play, solo was not an option. You had to travel across huge, often fairly empty, swaths of map to get to the content. And if in your travels (at lower levels) you ran into anything you were toast, you couldn't fight, you couldn't run. One of the most valuable - to me - items I got as early as possible was J-Boots (i.e. boots of speed) that allowed me to actually outrun stuff ... and of course cut travel time. Another major event in my character career was archery ... at the time arrow making components were sold one, and only one, place in the entire world ... the far side of the continent in a city hostile to my race (dark elf). It took me a couple hours, real time, and a lot of careful travel, to even get there. And once I did I had to spend days improving my standing with the locals to even get to the supplier to buy the components. Eventually wizards and druids got the levels and spells needed to teleport to various set locations around the world and an entire player-made mini-economy sprang up.

Now ... was all this "good" ... not just no but hell no !!!

But it did have many things most modern MMOs (and games in general) lack.
Meaningful content.
A sense of progression and improvement.
Real community/group/party gameplay.
It took time, and effort, to accomplish things, and when you did you felt satisfaction, satisfaction I remember and still feel now 18 years later.

Fallout 4?

Summed up easily ... a shooter-scavenger hunt.
Sure you were pleased when you accomplished certain things, but how many were "memorable"?

Too many, FAR to many, people confuse "quantity" with "quality" (lots of meaningless stuff to kill for lots of meaningless loot), "satisfaction" with "accomplishment" (*cough* participation trophies).

If you want CP2077 to be a game that stands out don't follow the current well trampled path, ask "why" not "what" when you place content.

 

[phlowerchild]

Please no out of place MMO mechanics.

First of all I wanted to quickly say that the Witcher 3 was my favorite game of all time. It made me laugh and cry in ways that no game ever has before or since, and it made me fall in love with it's beautiful world and it's fascinating characters. How you managed to pull off a game this massive with such a high level of quality blows my mind on a daily basis. My only issues with the game were a few gameplay design decisions which felt very out of place for the narrative it was crafted for.

One of my friends accidentally got into a fight with some Nilfgaardian guards near the beginning of the game, and he was infuriated that the legendary Witcher easily fell from one blow by a common soldier. While Geralt could only chip away at their health slowly, feeling for all the world like a mouse clawing against a cat. Why? Because Geralt was level 2 and the guards were level 14. This type of distinction felt completely out of place in this universe, and shattered his immersion. I remember when I was gifted a legendary sword by my friends in Skellige for my great deeds....and it was worse than a common sword in higher level areas. The Wyvern that looked so intimidating at the beginning of the game, could have easily been taken out by a single one of Cleavers thugs, only because they happened to live in a higher level area. I don't know why Novigrad has any trouble facing Nilfgaard, since in game a single Novigrad soldier could've have taken on a dozen Nilfgaard soldiers. Having to wait 8 levels in order to wear the next armor or weapon was silly.

It creates a version of scaling where enemies are arbitrarily much more powerful than you, or pathetic, and for no in game reason. It discouraged me from investigating more of the massively fun side content, because I didn't want to get too over leveled for the main story, which was already becoming far too easy even on the highest difficulty setting. I feel like an upgrade system more similar to Deus Ex: Human Revolution would be much more fitting; in that the game should offer solutions to improve your character in ways that evolve and improve your chosen gameplay style overtime, not just scale numbers up. Having a level 14 weapon be exactly the same as the level 2 version, but with better stats, is the most unimaginative way to do scaling. That scaling method is used for MMO's, it has no place in a single player RPG epic.

 

[Sardukhar]

Cyberpunk 2020, the CP2077 source material, has no levels outside skills. Everyone has the same "hit points" ( not really hit points, more like Lightly WOunded, Seriously, Critical, Mortal and then about 8 stages of Mortal as you bleed to death, heh heh heh) although varying levels of toughness mean some people take less damage based on their Body Type.

That's it.

So even that elite Arasaka Black Ops team has the same Hit points you do and the same health as any level "1" character.

HOWEVER, they absolutely have waaaay more training and waaay better gear and waaaaaaaaaaaay more backup and will absolutely destroy you and 90% of everyone they meet. Regardless of how badass you think you are. Because Arasaka.

Same applies to Militech, EBM, CSWAT, etc. Even if you are an incredible badass, two or three of these operators will kill you, unless you are super prepared. Game is that deadly - if it's run properly. If not, you can get a lot of OP characters with super gear...and a Ref who forgets the enemy knows all about DPU and API and Militech AP-defeating vests too.

 

[phlowerchild]

Exactly! That's one of the reasons I felt like MMO mechanics would feel really out of place here. I'm fine with there being some gear that's better than others. For example I'm fine with a Constitution Cyclone being more powerful than the Militant Renegade Saw. What I don't want is a level 3 Constitution Cyclone, and a level 9 Constitution Cyclone, and a level 15 Constitution Cyclone, etc. and on an on for all of the other weapons and armor. Some characters through experience and training should also have advantages in terms of damage, accuracy, mobility, survivability, tech, etc. What I don't want is a World of Warcraft or Borderlands type situation where a level 1 character deals 10 damage/hit and a level 60 character deals 1000 damage/hit. A more skill based system would both be more faithful to the lore, and better suited to the style of game being made.

 

[Sardukhar]

What I don't want is a level 3 Constitution Cyclone, and a level 9 Constitution Cyclone, and a level 15 Constitution Cyclone, etc..

Ugh! UGH! God I hope not. MAN would they miss the point of that.

If they need to reward people for success, it's easy. Money and gear and cyberware and contacts. The best of all that stuff only comes as you advance up the Edgerunner ladder of Rep and success.

In short, it's highly unlikely a starting weeflerunner would even know what a hand-built, COT-scoped, FF-cutout Laser-Niner would be or how to get Orbital Crystal cyberware. ANd even if they did, they'd never have the resources to do so.

Now, a more advanced, experienced character, that's some sweet stuff. Healing skinweave with anti-plague nanotech, divided Pacesetter2000 sportheart, Boostmaster-enhanced Kerenzikov speedware on top of already-gene-boosted reflexes, multiple coprocessors inside a skull protected by custom-built body-plating running anti-sniper audio software and enhanced body-language interpretation truth-telling chips, maybe some Orbital hardware in the limbs or torso..all running minimal humanity cost thanks to the clinics in Sweden?

Oh, yeah, that character is a world apart from the starting character and no stupid "levelled" gear. Just having the Euro and knowing the right people - and doing your homework on what's best for what situation. Totally different load outs depending on your Role and job.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Hope not. You have these artists, world/sound designers, writers who work their butts off in trying to make the world as immersive and authentic as possible...and then you have gameplay designers who do a sloppy job of implementing mechanics in a way that feels believable.
If a HUD icon is only way you can think of conveying message to the player: then ( most of the time) you didn't do your job properly. Enemy is too high "level"/threat?...let it's visual/audio design speak for itself. ( in Witcher : "level" of Armor for humanoids, aggressive coloring or size for monsters).
"Levels"... of equipment, characters, and most of time as with perks should not exist.
Also outside of this...no "treasure chests" ( invisible to everyone else for some reason) or dying man's audio logs (like in Bioshock).

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah, please no "threat level" indicators.

Armor, weapons, and in some cases cyberware should be visible, THATS your "threat" indicator.
If you randomly attack some Miltech operative you deserve what you'll probably get ... dead.

That said, obviously we need some sort of clue what we can, and can't, fight with any hope of success. But again, the appearance of the NPC, and their gear, should take care of that. Also presumably the jobs/tasks/missions/quests we get at various points in the game will be designed with the characters expected skills and equipment in mind. Of course it's entirely possible one player will create "The God of War" and another will have "Woody Allen", but that's the nature of an RPG as opposed to the various shooters that claim to be RPGs, one character will breeze thru what another finds impossible. I'd be willing to bet "The God of War" can't hack a terminal, pick a lock, or persuade a guard he has every right to be there.

 

[tropit9]

Ugh! UGH! God I hope not. MAN would they miss the point of that.

If they need to reward people for success, it's easy. Money and gear and cyberware and contacts. The best of all that stuff only comes as you advance up the Edgerunner ladder of Rep and success.

In short, it's highly unlikely a starting weeflerunner would even know what a hand-built, COT-scoped, FF-cutout Laser-Niner would be or how to get Orbital Crystal cyberware. ANd even if they did, they'd never have the resources to do so.

Now, a more advanced, experienced character, that's some sweet stuff. Healing skinweave with anti-plague nanotech, divided Pacesetter2000 sportheart, Boostmaster-enhanced Kerenzikov speedware on top of already-gene-boosted reflexes, multiple coprocessors inside a skull protected by custom-built body-plating running anti-sniper audio software and enhanced body-language interpretation truth-telling chips, maybe some Orbital hardware in the limbs or torso..all running minimal humanity cost thanks to the clinics in Sweden?

Oh, yeah, that character is a world apart from the starting character and no stupid "levelled" gear. Just having the Euro and knowing the right people - and doing your homework on what's best for what situation. Totally different load outs depending on your Role and job.

so people going thrugh gene therapy to gain combat advantage is a thing in cyberpunk 2020? that is sweet now that endgame character you describe with additonal hired muscele/ good firends with endgame gear you will provide for him will not be able to take down a black ops arasaka super squad? i mean i don't really "in the lore" but is sound like a guy i should be on his bad side. realllllly don't.

 

[Sardukhar]

now that endgame character you describe with additonal hired muscele/ good firends with endgame gear you will provide for him will not be able to take down a black ops arasaka super squad?.

No, that guy is now a real threat to elite units, absolutely. They are upper tier threat, either combatant or hacker or networking style of operator.

But Black Ops aren't "Super Squads", they are, in the Dark Future, a pretty standard part of any major Corp's military personnel.

A "Super Squad", which they also have, are a whoooooole other ballgame. Now you're talking a very expensive Corporate crew indeed - vat grown tech ninjas, cutting edge cyberware, top of the line gear and weapons and commo and transport and...blah blah blah. Scary, scary people. You do not see these people on the Street. Hopefully.

You know, they very best of what the Cyberpunk world can provide. That's what the elite Corporate units get. Because that gear is provided by the Corporations.

Second only to the Cybercircle ( some of whom are -in- those units as well) and of course the Angels.

 

[Suhiira]

Think modern life.

Imagine you're a criminal in the USA.
First response you get whatever police officer is close, followed quickly by other officers as back-up arrives.
If you're too big a threat they call in the SWAT Team.
Say, by some minor miracle you manage to defeat SWAT ... you're now on the radar for the FBI and probably ATF. They WILL hunt you down and stage a military style assault.
Somehow or other you manage to survive that ... now the local state Governor calls in the big guns ... the National Guard ... (semi) professional military troops ... with military hardware.

Now the exact names and functions of these units will vary from nation to nation across the world, but the general result is the same ... you lose ... period.

In Cyberpunk the FBI/ATF are replaced by various corporate security forces. The National Guard by the for-hire assets of MilTech ... assets ANY government or corporation can, and will, hire.

I don't care how well you're trained and equipped or how smart you are, a handful of people cannot defeat that level of opposition.

 

[Sardukhar]

I don't care how well you're trained and equipped or how smart you are, a handful of people cannot defeat that level of opposition.

Well, not in stand-up fight. But as many revolutionaries, outlaws and assorted counter-authority people have proven, you can either avoid until they give up or make it so expensive they back-burner you.

So playing and fighting smart, you can do a lot of damage and survive.

Just not in a prolonged fight.

Then it's Meet The ACPA time!

 

[Suhiira]

Well, not in stand-up fight. But as many revolutionaries, outlaws and assorted counter-authority people have proven, you can either avoid until they give up or make it so expensive they back-burner you.

True, but I was referring to a stand-up-fight as some folks seem to think they should be able to do.

 

[Sardukhar]

True, but I was referring to a stand-up-fight as some folks seem to think they should be able to do.

Yeah, like GTA or some MMOs. Although most MMOs the guard-spawn is endless and you will eventually succumb. But that's stupid, too and feels ridiculous.

Better to have some kind of warrant/bounty system so that you get incoming problems anytime your Team does something public-ish. Or every hour of gameplay there's a chance a corporate netrunner locates you and if so, again, incoming. No warning though, unless you have some kind of paid-off network in the area or Corp contacts or a Net alert set up yourself.

Man, that would be cool.