Zagor-Te-Nay;n8534340 said:But there is far more to it, than % success rate. RPG's are about decision making and consequences...from background, customization, dialogue, story choices, playstyles, etc, etc.
I've not argued otherwise. But that also has not been the topic.
I disagree...along with basic stats and skill increase ( and a poor karma system), they were absolutely fundamental aspect of building your character, when it comes to gameplay.
You can think that and it's not wrong to do so, but this is the moment when you need to know that SPECIAL was cobbled together in something like two weeks after losing the GURPS rights, and the perks were Brian Fargo's last minute idea to spice up the level up screen. And Fallout 2 was rushed out in about a year so there wasn't much time for refinement. They were complementary, not a fundamental point of the system.
You see, this is the whole "crux" of the "problem"...you see mechanics ( almost like some set in stone rpg dogma), but completely ignore the setting they take place in.
I absolutely have not ignored the setting, fictional nor mechanical.
I expect (hope for) certain principles to be adhered to due to what the game ihan been advertised as. I don't know why it is a "problem" , since what I ask for is not all that different from asking a racing game to have racing.
This game will ( and I'm 99.999% sure of this) play in realistic simulation of Night City.
Oh, I definitely expect the presentation and even some if its base mechanics to strive for that. Certainly. But - depending on how one defines "realism" in this very context - that does not prevent exploration of different (than normal) mechanical solutions. Nor does it mean they shouldn't try to explore them.
Copy pasting similar skill system like in older crpgs
As opposed to copypasting a similiar system than your latest blockbuster shooter? No. That's a baggage you have put on my back, I've suggested no such thing. The only thing I want them to "copy", is Cyberpunk 2020. And how they should manage it is the big question; what to keep, what to leave out, what to modify and how and on what kind of core could it be adapted to best...
They can draw their pointers for the core from all over the place as far as I care. Witcher 1, New Vegas, Wizardry 8, what ever. And their sources of inspiration have already been cited to be games like Fallout 2, Baldur's Gate, System Shock and Deus Ex (the orginal). Among others I would imagine.
Eh, no. Definitely not.
I dunno, developers themselves have said they needed to adapt to publishers whims on moving shit to consoles and that they wouldn't fund those more niche genres that weren't appealing on consoles anymore. Fallout was pushed on console by Interplay before they killed it, DAO was once seen as something like "the last of the mohicans" when EA wanted to annualize the series and make in more console friendly (we all remember the "awesome button" debacle). Everybody was going for consoles because they were a popular platform -- and the games there were different than on PC (for obvious reasons). That's not all there is to the whole thing, but that most certainly did play a role there.
The whole RPG genre was thought next to dead for a time, up until recently. This is not even about "platform wars" either, I don't give a shit about that. That's what happened.
It will have far more complexity than most of older rpgs, while skills functioning more realistically and more fitting to it's setting.
The "complexity" is true, obviously newer games have "more complexity", but it is also a smokescreen. The player is none the wiser if there's "more complexity" under the hood, hidden from him and not to be played with. And complexity as a general term is not even the point here. It's the intent of percieved experience. Your realistic sim should provide the best realistic simulation possible; an RPG should provide the best RPG gameplay possible. RPG's play differently from a normal every saturday action simulation; and they should be allowed to too - for the whole nine yards (the often used "But what about story and choices?" is a cop out; that's only half the package if even that, all things considered).
Do you not see the irony, of stating the game should not be designed in one way and stereotyping it as "dumb", while saying your preference is "objectively" better for the game?
A tad disingenuous thing to say given the line of arguments you've been using.
And it would seem that we are speaking of different games altogether anyway. My context is RPG, and it is dumb for an RPG to play unRPG-like; you have pretty straight implied that you might not even be looking for an RPG here (and not just from your action gaming arguments and shunning of RPG design, but also the way you questioned my desire to have an RPG here earlier).
This feels like re-re-repetition of the same theme, in the end our differences come down to:
You're making it more complex that it is.
The only difference is that you want a perk shooter that embraces "modern action principles"; and I want a cRPG that looks, feels and plays like one even if it is a modern game.
In the end it comes down to what people define as "roleplaying"
That's pointless. "Roleplaying" is an act of imagination that happens under a specified narrative framework and might include physical actions, and it happens either on a stage, in the forest with other LARPERs, in a game, or just in one's head with what ever activity or thought excercise is harnessed for it as the framework. You can "roleplay" in any game, or you can "roleplay" completely without a game. But if you have a game that is called "Roleplaying game" you need to consider the relationship between the terms "roleplaying" and "game" since the genre label specifies the gameplay there to be roleplaying (that's something the game has to produce for the player, else it's not a "roleplaying game" but just a game where you "roleplay" in at your own initiative, just like you could in any other game). And you if you have no rules to define the gameplay, it is not a game at all but a virtual toy. (Here the gameplay is roleplaying and the rules are the character system. With those rules the the game tells you how you can play at any given moment and through playing those rules you provide the game the information on how to react to what you do there.)
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