Weapon Durability

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Weapon Durability

Seems this is something everyone have divisive opinions, espec with latest Breath of the Wild.
In witcher, It really didn't fit well, imo...seemed like something added as an afterthought and out of context( medieval Europe repair "kits"?), attempt to "balance" the economy by adding unnecessary money drain.

+ It can work well to "enhance" realism the setting, particularly those centered around survival (Stalker series).
+ Promotes more variety and tactical use of weapons. Essentially, prevents player from relying on same approach in combat. But for this weapons need to be designed to play differently, instead of having xyz types of pistols/etc with little functional difference from one another.
+ Discourages reckless fire ( weapons degrading faster in rapid succession)
+ Can add more "tactical" options in combat...for example in Stalker, grenade exploding near a gun will nearly deplete it's durability
+ Economy factor...removes exploits of hoarding cheap, easily accessible low tier weapons and reselling them for easy buck
+ Can add more variance to weapon types and more planning...depending on environment, less effective, but more durable weapon can be a better option
+ "High risk, high gain": certain, "experimental" weapons could actually have a chance to "overload" when on low durability

Negatives we all know: often degrades unrealistically fast, adds a lot of busywork and inventory management and here and then may even get you killed.

All together: in my opinion, either do it well, fine tune it to fullest ( based on setting, damage contributing factors, effects, weapon types, etc) or don't waste your time on it. In most games, this seems considered a necessary part of ( MMO)RPG checklist by the developers and contributes nothing in the end.
 
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I'll agree.
Outside of "survival" or "post holocaust" type games where weapons are old and maintenance is poor (at best) weapons degradation is much more of a "give the player something to do" and/or "money/time sink" checkbox then a necessary/useful element in a game. It's almost always incredibly artificial, unrealistic, and a fiddly pain in the ass that adds absolutely nothing to a game.

That said, body armor degradation is a real and important factor to consider. While it may well save you from a couple hits it's not something indestructible that allows you to wade thru bullet storms.

Zagor-Te-Nay;n8091280 said:
+ Promotes more variety and tactical use of weapons. Essentially, prevents player from relying on same approach in combat. But for this weapons need to be designed to play differently, instead of having xyz types of pistols/etc with little functional difference from one another.
Easily solved, and pretty much inherent to CP2020. Each weapon model (Colt, Aramalite) as opposed to type (handgun, rifle) has different stats that you have to balance based on intended use and playstyle. Just like real weapons. Everyone has a favorite, and few people agree on them. In a "military" situation I prefer the classic M1911, in a "police" situation I love my .357 revolver with a 6in barrel. Yeah, yeah ... neither has a high ammo capacity ... but I don't "spray 'n pray", just not my shooting style.

Zagor-Te-Nay;n8091280 said:
+ Discourages reckless fire ( weapons degrading faster in rapid succession)
Easily solved by using realistic ammo weights and availability. You can't physically carry 5000 rounds of ammo and you're not going to find an ammo shop or convenient caches scattered all over the landscape as you do in most action games.

Zagor-Te-Nay;n8091280 said:
+ Economy factor...removes exploits of hoarding cheap, easily accessible low tier weapons and reselling them for easy buck
Also easily solved, use a realistic economy and mass system, cheap weapons are cheap, used cheap weapons are dirt cheap. Can you carry enough of them to anyone that wants to buy them be worth the trouble? No shop owner has any use for 500 of the same weapon. Sell em one at full price, a second at price-10 (or whatever), third at -20, etc. Very soon they won't even buy any more from you ... problem solved.
 
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I liked the idea of weapon degradation in the witcher. maintaining your gear/preparing for encounters is part of being a witcher. being in the middle of nowhere with a broken sword is (supposed to be) tense and dangerous. and in the beginning it was a serious decision of you could afford to fix your gear, or if you wanted to risk fighting with a half-broken sword.
then you get crazy rich and carry around 50 repair kits at all times, and the whole thing becomes nothing but a chore surprisingly quickly.

going by the "feel" the mechanic is supposed to invoke (as I described above), I don't think it needs to be in cyberpunk. your profession isn't necessarily a mercenary or assassin, constantly fiddling with their weapons isn't a core part of every character's life, so it shouldn't be forced on everyone. and you are in a city, finding someone to fix your things is trivial, so you would never be stranded with broken gear.
 
Zagor-Te-Nay;n8091280 said:
Economy factor...removes exploits of hoarding cheap, easily accessible low tier weapons and reselling them for easy buck.

one thiing i hate about deus ex game that your a fekin walking arsenal but nooo you can't in the worls pick up an extra gun you already have, so to make cash you have to loot and tip one at a time. ii my opinion this not an expliot, but a really moronic thing to do.

i agree with the other things, you bringing up really good points :)

there should be some weapon reapir kit. weapon reapir shops and very expansive not so easely crafted nano weapon reapir kit that also coat your weapon in nano material that make the weapon heat up wayy less and improved it's durabilty, they should be very expansive, and you are not suppsed or cannot craft them very often, should be used for epic raids on gang leaders hideouts. and such.
 
I personally have no problem really with systems where your weapons and equipment degrade and eventually break compleatly... but I don't expect it to be in every game. In some games it just does not make sence to have things like durability, where as in others it does.

For me, Cyberpunk is one such game where it could make sence. Exactly to what degree of a durability system they should use for it... that I don't really know... but I have a system in mind that could work.

Rather than have the weapons compleatly break, so that you can not use them anymore untill they are repaired, why not use a system where when the weapon starts getting into bad shape (and/or get's realy dirty) it starts to malfunction at times... malfunctions which you have to fix befor you can fire again (either by using the reload key or maybe a seperate key for racking the gun, etc)... and eventually it even becomes less reliable in accuracy due to it becoming missaligned. That way you will never reach a point where you can not continue the fight because your weapon broke or something, yes your weapon starts to become a bit more unreliabe, but you can still continue to fight with it.

It could also introduce some pretty interesting scenarios if you had to keep fighting so long (or you have to start using the opponents weapons, because you did not bring enough ammunition or something yourself, and their weapons might not be in as good of a shape as one would like), so that your weapons starts to act up on you. Like that crucial moment where you maybe have finally found your target, and you find a good sniping possition or something... but due to that the gun is in bad shape your aimed headshot randomly missed it's target, which of course compleatly alerts them to your prescence, where they then maybe tries to flee, or maybe calls in backup to fight back. Or how about rounding a corner only to find your self infront of an enemy, you aim your weapon to fire, and as you pull the trigger it clicks on you (or what ever other sound a malfunction might make), followed by a scramble from you to either get into cover again to fix the problem, or fix the problem right there and hoping the opponent does not react in time.


I see 4 "stages" of a state that your weapon can be in (this is mostly for guns... but if you change the wording etc I guess it could fit for anything):

1: Perfect condition. The weapon works as it should. How long it does, I don't know... maybe it lasts an entire standard mission length, or maybe 2-3+ of them.

2: Dirty. The gun starts to missfire evey now and then, where you have to fix it befor being able to fire again. Maybe a 1-5% chans for each bullet fired.

3: Worn (+ really Dirty). The missfire rate is increased, to such a level where it becomes a real problem. ~5-20'ish % chance per bullet shot maybe.

4: Misaligned (+ Really Worn, + Extremelly Dirty). The guns accuracy goes down, where at times the shot will randomly deviate X% from where you aimed it, which can potentualy lead to that you miss (and potentually hit something/someone your not supposed to due to it... suddenly taking that shot to save a hostage who is being held at gunpoint becomes a problem). The gun now also has a serious problem of missfiring, maybe somewhere around the 10-35'ish % per bullet fired.

As for repairing/cleaning/realigning a weapon again to be in top condition, that I don't think you should be able to do "in the field"... because such a thing tends to take a fairly large amount of time to do, especialy if you need to start to realigning your gun back to being as accurate as it can be. You need to be at home, or at a weaponshop to do that I feel. And when you do it, it advances the ingame time forward with X amount depending on what level of fix you needed to do. If you clean a weapon which is still in Stage 1, it takes maybe 30 minuts. Cleaning a weapon in Stage 2, also takes 30 minuts. Fixing and cleaning a weapon in Stage 3 takes ~ an hour. A weapon in Stage 4 needs to be realigned (+cleaned and fixing worn things on top of that), and depending on how bad it has goten it will take maybe 2-3 hours to fix.

In my mind what you can and can not do at home will highly depend on if you have the right equipment or not. Stage 1 and 2 can always be fixed at home, but if you lack the normally required equipment it doubles the time it takes. Stage 3 can be done at home if you have the required equipment, if you do not then you have to do it at a weaponstore. Stage 4 can only be fixed at a weaponstore.

Lacking/having the right abilities (Repair and/or Gunsmithing etc) could potentually also effect the times it takes to do these things, and some Stages might be locked out for your character to do them selves if they do not have the skills. For example, if you lack any ability that deals with these things, then the only thing your character can do them selves is cleaning the weapons as Stage 1 and 2, but the time it takes is doubled (which means if you lack the skills needed, and lack the right equipment, then cleaning a weapon at stage 1 and 2 would take 2 hours). If you lack the skill "Repair" (and/or other relevant skill), then you can not perform the repairs needed for a weapon at Stage 3, you will have to go to a shop and pay X amount of money for it. As for Stage 4, no matter if you have the skills or not you still need to go to a weaponstore to do it... but if you do have the skill/skills you can choice to try and fix it your self (at a reduced cost of course since your renting the use of their facilities and tools).

Letting a store fix these things for you will always be a 100% successrate, which means it will always take the minimum amount of time needed for each Stage, but will cost you a lot more money to do compared to if you bought the required equipment and did the fixes yourself. Doing the things yourself will be cheaper compared to if you let the store do it, but can result in a "failure" when the dice is rolled for the relevant skill, but the only real outcome of that is that it takes you longer to fix the problem.

This could potentualy be an important thing as well.. the time it takes to fix things, and the chance that it might take longer if you fail... and that a store will always take the minimum amount of time but will cost you more. Because you are maybe pressed for time for a mission, so maybe it might be better to take the 100% chance of it taking the minimum mount of time by paying a lot more money to have the weaponstore do it... because if you did it your self there might always be at the very least a 5% chance or so that you would fail (I always prefer it if rpg games leaves atleast 5% chance to fail on things, no matter how good your character is at it), resulting in it taking longer to fix, which could potentualy result in a failed mission because you got there to late.


Granted... I think some might find this, weapon becoming inaccurate and starting to missfire on you due to weapon being in a bad shape, and all my suggested repair rules and what not... to be a lot more annoying then for example you being compleatly unable to use a weapon because you went down to 0 in durability on it, and needing to repair it befor use again. But I think that is the point really... or atleast part of it. That it should be annoying when your weapon starts to act up on you, so that you try and always keep your weapons in as good of a condition as you can at all times... but that at times you might not have had chance to fix it properly, so you have to deal with your situation at hand.

I think the upside to my suggestion, that weapons don't really break so that you can no longer use them, where you just have to deal with a missbehaving weapon untill your in a possition to get it fixed... is that you can keep going as long as you have the ammunition for it. Or find a temporary/permanent replacement or something (even if the replacemebt is not as good) because you just cant be without a main weapon or something in your current situation.
 
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I'll again bring up real world footage from Iran and Afghanistan ... how often do you see weapons "break" ?

Yes, yes, it does happen. But if the weapon is decently manufactured and maintained it's pretty uncommon.

I'm sorry, but I generally put the whole concept in the same category as other "gamey" notions that have become commonplace in shooters because someone thinks they're cool.
 
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As former military and having worked with armory techs, and as someone who has held many melee weapons both historical, modern forged and cheap replica, I honestly don't want to see a durability mechanic in CP2077.

I'm going to address several things in turn here, so stick with me.

1) Breath of the Wild./Melee weapons in Cyberpunk

Alright, Durability is an interesting mechanic in breath of the wild because of the way they do gameplay, but even from a "roleplay" standpoint, entirely unrealistic. Anyone who has owned an axe or chopped wood knows that a "Woodcutter's Axe" isn't going to break after 10-15 strikes at something. Sure the edge MIGHT get a little dull... but it doesn't need to be razor sharp to be used or functional... or do damage to flesh. Going further with this, a well made sword (I own several handmade pieces for reference) is not something that shatters, breaks or even chips with regular use unless you abuse the HELL out of it. Steel is really, really, really hard, especially carbon steel of the 10xx grades that weapons would be made of. Unless you are going edge to edge with an equally hard blade, you aren't going to even get nicks or divots in your edge.

For reference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQG2KhiB-YA

Yes, with the right edge, temper and steel type (chisel edge in the case of Badger Blades) you can take out concrete and the blade is fine for the most part.

Relating to Cyberpunk, with metamaterials set FAR in the future, I don't think durability of a melee weapon would be an issue.

2) Guns.

Guns, for the most part, are made to be lasting items. There are plenty of videos out there of things like AK's and M4's being buried in dirt or mud, picked up, shaken off and fired without issue. Sure it isn't ideal and you might fuck your sights, but the gun works. (DISCLAIMER: Do not try this with typical firearms. Just because you can, does not mean you should)

"Gunsmithing" Is a skill you more see in the modification of a firearm to be a custom piece, not something you need to maintain a gun. With the number of non-gunsmiths in America maintaining their own guns and not having to go to a manufacturer when they (don't) fuck them up, having to dump points into a skill that a literal idiot can do on a typical daily basis is boring and a waste. Maintaining a gun basically means apply oil, maybe strip and clean it.

Personally, I don't think many people in the CP2077 world are going to KEEP just one gun long enough to warrant that (several years). Hell, the most rigorous of gun owners clean and strip after every firing out at the range, but I'm pretty sure there are plenty of guns out there that go years without a cleaning, see regular use and are, again, fine for the most part.

Hell, most of the job of a typical armory tech in the military now is maintaining electric firing systems on artillery or things like scopes or night sights or LTDS... things like that. I don't think we need a "After 50+ shots, your rifle barrel is fucked and you need to repair it or it does less damage/shoots slightly to the left/whatever.

Doesn't work that way.
 
If they DO add in a durability mechanic, I hope it takes a loooooong time to break(unlike Botw).. like you could spend 10+ plus hours in the game being trigger happy and your gun would still be above 50% durability. Would probably make the mechanic useless and nonsensical. But I think I would enjoy that. The need for maintaining a gun after days and days(in-game time) of heavy use. Jamming from time to time on low class/qual guns and can be fun too.
 
Mk3rd;n8109880 said:
Jamming from time to time on low class/qual guns and can be fun too.
Could see this mechanic being something more about the ammo you get

Street made or secondhand "refurbished" ammo from someone repacking used casings would cause a gun to be more jam prone. But would probably be cheaper/easier to get in some situations.
 
Calistarius;n8103490 said:
I see 4 "stages" of a state that your weapon can be in (this is mostly for guns...

...

That's almost word for word of what I've been thinking about thi subject (for several different games).

Few stages -- be it three or four -- all of which provide a significant behavioral difference than the one above/below to make it actually affect gameplay (I mean, it is busywork, taking care of weapon maintenance, and it is gamey, but if it does it's job mechanically like it is supposed to and if the core gameplay design is actually in line with such a feature, it is all worth it). The worse the condition, the less accurate the weapon is and the more prone to jamming it is, but bullets never stop being lethal (i.e. no damage loss).

I'm not sure how good fit this would be for CP2077... if the game is more of a shooter and thus bears little considerations for stats and their effects on the mechanics, it's a useless and at worst a hurtful feature. But if combat is designed to be more stat driven where the "considions" can provide a tangible enough an effect that be felt and noticed, it can enhance the experience.
 
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Which is why I suggested the version I suggested... that they do not break... but eventually start to act up on you to a increasing amount of degree with use. Since I feel that is more realistic then that the weapon would break and become useless. Of course, in a videogame like this they would start to act up long befor any real world gun would... but I am sure there is a speed of this happening in a videogame that would feel about right or something.

I am compleatly fine as well with there not being any kind of durability thing at all on weapons as well. So my suggestion was just made based on the thought that if there was a durability system in CP2077, then I would prefer something simmilar to what I suggested, rather than a weapon breaking.

As for Gunsmithing and all that. That was just a suggestion of one of the many potential skills that could be used. Also note that I did say that even a person without any relevant skills would be able to atleast do the cleaning of a gun if it was dirty, only that it would take longer to do. The moments where skills like Repair, or Gunsmithing, etc, would come in would be when you have to actually repair something with the weapon, like replacing worn out parts or realigning a barrel etc. What you said (@Corewolf): "Maintaining a gun basically means apply oil, maybe strip and clean it." to me means being able to do the Stage 1 and 2 that I suggested, that was why I said that any person could do these stages even without having any relevant skills, or not even the right equipment for it, and the only real effect of it being that it would take longer to do then for people who had the skills and equipment... it's when you go up to Stage 3 and 4 that a skill like this (be it Gunsmithing, or Repair, or any other relevant skill) would need to come in.

Also... even if I have never played Cyberpunk 2020, and at best have read parts of the rules some several years ago (somewhere online I think), I am pretty much 100% certain that a fairly large amount of the players who have played the pnp rpg have atleast at one point or another made a character with skills related to making and/or modifying guns... because I see that a lot in other pnp rpg's, lots of characters with some kind of weapon and/or armor kinds of crafting skills, me being one of them... often related to what kind of weaponry/armor said character tends to use... but also because it makes sence for characters who spend a lot of their time with their weapons and equipment, who's survival and livelyhood relies on their weapons and equipment working properly (or better then the normal standard), to have a skill like this. And if a skill like "Gunsmithing" or something would be a waste of time and skillpoints in CP2077, that would compleatly depend on if CDPR adds a crafting type of a system to CP2077 or not... and at what kind of degree this crafting system would be as well, how much you could do with it, and how much your characters skill in such things would effect it.

Like I said, I am fine if there is no durability system in the game... and I am also fine if there is no crafting in the game either... but... if there is a durability system, and if there is a crafting system... then I would expect there to be relevant skills as well to deal with them.

If anything, having skills like Gunsmithing (etc) in the game would to one degree or another make it so that the chance is pretty high that a players character, who is not made for combat, lack skills like this. And not becase they could not get the skills... but because they maybe felt that their character needed those skill points on something more relevant to their character... like barteting, or diplomacy, or sneaking, or what ever it may be... and as such would need to go to a store to fix anything more serious then a dirty gun.
 
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Calistarius;n8111340 said:
but eventually start to act up on you to a increasing amount of degree with use. Since I feel that is more realistic then that the weapon would break and become useless. Of course, in a videogame like this they would start to act up long before any real world gun would... but I am sure there is a speed of this happening in a videogame that would feel about right or something.
I just feel like if this happened it would be because the gun was already kinda scrap/crap to begin with. If I were to buy a new gun, or even moreso a custom made piece that was particularly well built and modified, it would last a lot longer in use than I would have gameplay hours to have, particularly with guns, assuming I'm not misusing the thing and overheating the barrel... but that isn't something I could fix on the go. If I cook my barrel into jamming the gun, I'm tossing the thing down and scraping up one from the guards (hopefully they aren't biolocked, otherwise I'm fucked.)

I could possibly understand a blade wearing down quick against Cyberware or something, needing minor maintenence or honing, but a gun, particularly a military grade one, is meant to handle a LOT of abuse before needing to be "repaired" and that isn't something you can do on the go with just a skill. You need manufactured replacement parts or specialized tools and a workshop.

Yeah durability can be interesting, but it does't fit here.

CRAFTING could be interesting. and yeah if there is durability, it needs to be able to be addressed.

Remember though, this is based off a tabletop, and while there are rules for weapon breakage in any number of tabletop settings, use wear down, particularly on guns, is fairly rare and should not be an issue that detracts from gameplay or forces you to do scrounging side missions to find mats to maintain your inventory.

I imagine the money/time sink on things other games use durability for will be in things like grenades and ammo.
 
Modern weapons shouldn't degrade over the course of a few weeks/months of game time, even under heavy use. If they want a weapons sink, I'd propose instead of the weapon degrading the weapon acquires more "heat" on it every time you shoot someone with it. then it becomes a risk vs reward mechanic, do you risk using your awesome gun on this opp knowing that if you're caught with it you're facing dozens of murder charges? or do you pitch it in the bay like a smart runner and buy another that's "good enough" and will only net you a slap on the wrist for it being unregistered?
 
eraser7278;n8114550 said:
or do you pitch it in the bay like a smart runner and buy another that's "good enough" and will only net you a slap on the wrist for it being unregistered?

Exactly.

Or at least swap out the barrel and whatever else leaves a ballistic trace. Firing pin/rod, maybe.

Durability for real-world weapons and values is dumb.
 
Durability, not so much. Reliability? YES! Folks, you get what you pay for. A "Polymer one shot" SHOULD BE, for the most part, a piece of unspeakable junk...but it's cheap.
 
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