RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

[Rawls]

RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

I have been pondering what the skill trees and player progression mechanics might look like in CP 2077. The mixing of roles and skills in the CP world makes in an interesting challenge. I thought I’d take a stab at something that tries to stay faithful to the PnP but still translates fairly well to a crpg using TW3 system as a starting point. This is both for my own convenience and because it should translate fairly easily in engine. Here is what I came up with:

EDIT: Borked table

There are three main skill trees – Combat, Intelligence and Charisma. There are five skill groupings within each tree. Like in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, each grouping has four tiers of skills. The player has tier 1 of every skill available from the start, and may progress to higher tiered skills after investing points in the tree. In order to reach tier 2 of a skill group, you must (1) have 10 skill points invested in the skill tree and (2) have the lower tiered skill within that skill group.

I am assuming that CDPR stays with 9 possible roles to play – Cop, Corporate, Fixer, Media, Netrunner, Nomad, Rockerboy, Solo, and Techie. Roles give you three advantages in the skill tree.

• (1) Each role gets a special skill, no other class can get – i.e. a Fixer get “streetdeal” just like in the PnP. I have changed three special skills, namely now Corporates have finances, Nomads get weapons stash, and Rockerboys get performance. This is because the original skills from the PnP for these roles would be difficult to translate to a crpg.
• (2) Each role has 2 skill groups they specialize in. For instance, a Media role player specializes in Empathy and General Knowledge. Specializing in a skill group means that all skills in that group are available to the player without regard to skills invested in the skill tree. So from the beginning of the game, Interview is an available skill to Media role-player, despite it normally requiring 40 points invested in the Charisma skill tree.
• (3) In addition, specializing in a skill group means that each skill in that group only requires ½ of a skill point.

My idea assumes a level cap of 50. The player is given 10 skill points at the games beginning, gains 5 skill points for every level first 10 levels, 3 skill points between levels 11 and 30, and 1 skill points for every level between 31 and 50. That’s a total of 150 skill points max. There are a total of 61 skills available to a player. Each skill can have multiple points invested in it for increased effects. I am assuming to fill all the skill trees, one would need approximately 250 skill points.

So that was my suggestion. Anybody else want to give it a shot? Or just tell me what you think. Does any of that even make sense? Maybe I should just go to bed ...

 

[Suhiira]

Why is there any need for skill trees?
The whole concept is centered around restricting certain actions/activities to a certain tier in the tree. Your character is unable to perform certain actions until they achieve that tier, why?

So your average infantryman must learn to use pistols and shotguns in order to use a rifle? I'm sure every army in the world will be surprised to learn this ... since most don't even teach the average soldier to use either weapon ... only rifles.

 

[Rawls]

Well your average infantryman would likely be in the role of a Cop, Nomad or Solo. So no, they would have access to all firearms from the start because they specialize in that skill group.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

using TW3 system as a starting point.

Why would you want to go that far off when you have a perfectly fine starting point in 2020 already?

In my mind, it'd be more productive to figure how the existing systems could be adapted to a cRPG environment as closely as is to provide the most authentic experience, rather than turning it into nigh something else completely (perktrees instead of stats&skills, levels instead of IP progression...) for a purpose I can not figure out.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Interesting lay out and well thought out. Have nothing against it, but sceptical about CDPR ( or anyone) able to deliver consistently responsive role playing experience across nine and very varied roles, in a game of this size and complexity.
Or having abilities like streetdeal/performance/etc with as much relevance as mastery of fire arms?
It may end up with most roles/skills so trivialized, it makes you wonder why they are in the game to begin with. Plus "balancing" is even harder and more relevant with tiered skills system.
So everyone would still end up running same few builds.
In that case, why not make the whole system as "open" as possible? From your previous background you'd gain benefits( or negatives) when it comes to stats/skills/equipment/etc..but you'd largely have your own character to fully develop.
Even if most quests can be resolved with the main combat/stealth/diplomacy/( hacking and other skills as indirect support) route , it would be a massive improvement from their previous work and damn impressive for a game like this.
My opinion is that basic gameplay mechanics (rpg or otherwise), always have to follow the same design principles as the game they place in.
This kind of progression system would be great for a very linear (and likely short) game. That way developers would have a pretty clear idea of current player progress at a certain "stage" of the game, and can design quests accordingly.
But for a massive open world/sandbox? That would require an absolutely incredible amount of effort (design/re-re-...design) to get it right.

 

[Rawls]

But for a massive open world/sandbox? That would require an absolutely incredible amount of effort (design/re-re-...design) to get it right.

Agreed. They did a decent job of balancing in TW3 IMO, though this will be much more difficult because the TW3's progression trees were pretty much all focused on combat-ish skills. Just different ways of doing combat. Getting the balance right to accommodate Combat, Stealth, Diplomacy, Hacking and Tech play-styles will indeed be challenging.

I also agree that the majority of players will likely take one of the combat roles, however I think it's very important that they offer the other builds as well or the game will come off feeling like a bigger dues ex human revolution. Which would be okay-ish ... but not what I'm hoping for. I want a game where diplomacy, stealth and hacking are all viable paths for completing most missions. I think having the roles skew to a distinct play-style is important so they don't all end up feeling the same. Could you end up a techie who also specializes in fencing ... sure, but your going to be spending a lot of skill points to do it.

Or having abilities like streetdeal/performance/etc with as much relevance as mastery of fire arms?

I think some of the skills would have to be translated to work in a crpg. For example, combat sense could make traps visually highlighted and allow for time to slow for the first two seconds of any combat encounter (extra points in the skill would increase the duration and/or slow time further). This gives you the feel of an initiative bonus while still allowing for the player to play the encounter outside of turns. Performance could be like a buff skill outside of combat increasing certain stats. Streetdeal would essentially make it so the player could act as a fence regarding goods and information. There will likely have to be some compromises made to translate the game to a crpg. I'm by no means suggesting my random thoughts on it are the best way to do that, they're just the ones I came up with.

Why would you want to go that far off when you have a perfectly fine starting point in 2020 already? In my mind, it'd be more productive to figure how the existing systems could be adapted to a cRPG environment as closely as is to provide the most authentic experience, rather than turning it into nigh something else completely (perktrees instead of stats&skills, levels instead of IP progression...) for a purpose I can not figure out.

I am trying to figure out how the existing systems could be adapted to a cRPG environment as closely as is to provide the most authentic experience while also being feasible as far as gameplay and UI are concerned. I'm not suggesting it not be stats and skills. Stats and gear will obviously be involved as well (I hope). This specifically is meant to contemplate how skills and roles can intertwine to make gameplay distinct for different roles while not being overwhelming to those not already familiar with CP. Maybe I ought to have said that in the OP. 61 skills is a lot to balance in an open world RPG. If my math is right, every role would start with 22 skills optionally available at the start (15 tier 1 skills, 6 additional skills from two specialized skill groups and 1 special skill = 22). Stats and gear are just separate things entirely. That would require a lot more thought to mix into this - which I didn't want to do at midnight EDT last night.

Stats - I personally hope that stats are guided entirely by skills & gear. I don't like it when games say oh you got a new level, thus you automatically get +10 HP, +2 awareness, etc etc. If you want to improve stats, you either have to invest in skills that do that or buy gear that does it.

Gear - I really want the buying, selling and crafting systems to be really good - and I do want it so not everyone can craft everything. If you don't have points invested in bioengineer, guess what ... you can't make cyberwear personally. You'll have to buy it. I also would like cyberwear to act somewhat like mutations did in TW3 (but more gameplay distinct - not just % increases). Of course you have to factor in humanity cost of various cyberwear as well.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Stats - I personally hope that stats are guided entirely by skills & gear. I don't like it when games say oh you got a new level, thus you automatically get +10 HP, +2 awareness, etc etc. If you want to improve stats, you either have to invest in skills that do that or buy gear that does it.

Not sure. I'm hoping outside of few Cyberware choices, stats will be largely set. Really dislike how in Fallout ( or similar) you can further boost your stats: perks, drugs, or even just by wearing a piece of clothing...so you end up with 10/10/10/9/7 superman. Kind of dilutes core char building. I like the trade off : exceptionally strong at something equals weaker in other(s)... what you're Not good at, is as relevant for defining character.
Also with Alpha Protocol...it had it's own hidden "perks" you gained automatically according to your playstyle. A bit too many so they ended up feeling irrelevant, but I like the idea of your direct gameplay choices reflected on character in some way.
They need to be rare though... designed to reward more observant players: discovering very cleverly hidden route, solving a puzzle differently than intended, etc.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

This specifically is meant to contemplate how skills and roles can intertwine to make gameplay distinct for different roles while not being overwhelming to those not already familiar with CP.

But it's already quite easy to grasp (and it need not be this easy) with the career packages that are basically what you just did in the OP, but are also less rigid due to holding on to individual skills and equal-to-all attributes instead of going for a tiered perktree which pretty much dictate what you have to do for your character from the very beginning. I would suggest that your system might even be the more overwhelming one to the unitiated here. There is some overlap with the career packages, but it's OK to have some. The IP multipliers can handle the role specific restrictions where nobody's shut off, but not eveyone has equal opportunities on everything. It's all there already. Your list in the OP looks like an interesting take and I think it could work on a game, but it feels like reinventing the wheel here (in this specific case where there's a system already in place).

What I'd start questioning in regards to how CP2077 should do these things is how would "BODY+Strength feat.+d10", "INT+Awareness&Notice+d10" or "REF+Handguns+d10" etc translate into the hands-on gameplay in a way that that fits with what ever kind of gameplay we might be facing eventually (what kind should it be for the system to work well), how would the IP economy work (e.g. how much can the player earn through use versus mission rewards -- skill grind vs content grind -- how should the IP multipliers work for different roles, ie. how much harder would it be for a media to learn heavy weapons than it would for a solo), and so forth.

Stats - I personally hope that stats are guided entirely by skills & gear.

And attributes. There's no leveling up in the PnP, so I'm guessing we won't be seeing that in 2077 either. Skills, cyberwear, gear, possibly teachers/trainers (for very limited attribute increase). That's about it.

Gear - I really want the buying, selling and crafting systems to be really good - and I do want it so not everyone can craft everything.

I kind of disagreeing with this one -- on part of it. Meds, fixers and techies - for example - should have an upper hand in their respective areas of expertise over other roles. And the player should never ever be allowed to "know it all". There's always NPC's in the game that have - in the fiction - dedicated their lives on the subject and should know better than a PC who's probably been honing his skill for few years along with plethora of other distractions, those NPC's should be the kind of specialists that know better than any PC (even if the PC might have capped skill).

Other than that, sure. Everyone should be able to try everything.

 

[Rawls]

Not sure. I'm hoping outside of few Cyberware choices, stats will be largely set. Really dislike how in Fallout ( or similar) you can further boost your stats: perks, drugs, or even just by wearing a piece of clothing...so you end up with 10/10/10/9/7 superman. Kind of dilutes core char building. I like the trade off : exceptionally strong at something equals weaker in other(s)... what you're Not good at, is as relevant for defining character. Also with Alpha Protocol...it had it's own hidden "perks" you gained automatically according to your playstyle. A bit too many so they ended up feeling irrelevant, but I like the idea of your direct gameplay choices reflected on character in some way. They need to be rare though... designed to reward more observant players: discovering very cleverly hidden route, solving a puzzle differently than intended, etc.

I can get behind this for the most part. I wouldn't mind toughness adding 10% HP per skill point invested or something (notice it's a tier 4 skill) Drug resistance would increase a tolerance stat or whatever you call it. I was thinking some of the cool stats would increase reputation with various factions (which I hope there will be). So if your wearing a business suit and have a skill point in wardrobe, you rep with corporate types goes up +5. Endurance would effect distance you could run, swim, etc at a "sprint". Strength is carry capacity and damage output in Melee. Athletics might effect the likelyhood of getting knocked off your feet, or jumping higher etc. Most of the skills however would actually result in a gameplay change, additional information, or bonuses to a skill itself (such as persuasion) etc.

 

[Rawls]

And attributes. There's no leveling up in the PnP, so I'm guessing we won't be seeing that in 2077 either. Skills, cyberwear, gear, possibly teachers/trainers (for very limited attribute increase). That's about it.

I am assuming a leveling mechanic will be involved. I generally speaking strongly dislike leveling, so if they manage to do it without that mechanic as the numerical representation of character progress, I'll be smiling with you. I would be surprised however if it turned out that way. I can't find a better reason I feel that way than because that's the way everyone does it ... which I concede isn't a good reason in and of itself. Indeed it's generally a bad reason to keep doing something a particular way. However that is the feeling I have.

I kind of disagreeing with this one -- on part of it. Meds, fixers and techies - for example - should have an upper hand in their respective areas of expertise over other roles. And the player should never ever be allowed to "know it all". There's always NPC's in the game that have - in the fiction - dedicated their lives on the subject and should know better than a PC who's probably been honing his skill for few years along with plethora of other distractions, those NPC's should be the kind of specialists that know better than any PC (even if the PC might have capped skill). Other than that, sure. Everyone should be able to try everything.

I think we're mostly on the same page here.

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

I have been pondering what the skill trees and player progression mechanics might look like in CP 2077. The mixing of roles and skills in the CP world makes in an interesting challenge. I thought I’d take a stab at something that tries to stay faithful to the PnP but still translates fairly well to a crpg using TW3 system as a starting point. This is both for my own convenience and because it should translate fairly easily in engine. Here is what I came up with:

Tree			Combat
Group	Melee	Fencing	Fitness	Firearms	Tactics
Tier 1 (0)	Brawling	Quick Strike	Athletics	Pistols	Awareness
Tier 2 (10)	Crushing Blows	Parry	Endurance	Shotguns	Dodge
Tier 3 (25)	Block	Whirl	Strength	Rifles	High Ground
Tier 4 (40)	Coup de Grace	Lunging Strike	Toughness	Machineguns	Ambush
Special				Weapons Stash*	Combat Sense*
Roles	Nomad, Fixer			Nomad, Cop, Solo	Solo

Tree			Intelligence
Group	Business	Chemistry	Computers	General Knowledge	Tech
Tier 1 (0)	Bargain	First Aid	System Knowledge	Education	Electronics
Tier 2 (10)	Appraisal	Pharmaceuticals	Programing	Composition	Gearhead
Tier 3 (25)	Corporate Knowledge	Toxins	Electronic Warfare	History	Robotics
Tier 4 (40)	Stock Market	Demolitions	Remote Hacking	Library Search	Bioengineering
Special	Finances*		Interface*		Jury Rig *
Roles	Corp	Techie	Netrunner	Media, Netrunner	Techie

Tree			Charisma
Group	Cool	Empathy	Investigation	Subterfuge	Underworld
Tier 1 (0)	Wardrobe & Style	Human Perception	Search	Stealth	Streetwise
Tier 2 (10)	Grooming	Persuasion	Intimidate	Lock-Pick	Scrounge
Tier 3 (25)	Drug Resistance	Seduction	Bribe	Shadow	Pick Pocket
Tier 4 (40)	Leadership	Interview	Insight	Evade	Forgery
Special	Performance*	Credibility*	Authority*		Streetdeal*
Roles	Rockerboy, Corp	Media, Rockerboy	Cop		Fixer

There are three main skill trees – Combat, Intelligence and Charisma. There are five skill groupings within each tree. Like in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt, each grouping has four tiers of skills. The player has tier 1 of every skill available from the start, and may progress to higher tiered skills after investing points in the tree. In order to reach tier 2 of a skill group, you must (1) have 10 skill points invested in the skill tree and (2) have the lower tiered skill within that skill group.

I am assuming that CDPR stays with 9 possible roles to play – Cop, Corporate, Fixer, Media, Netrunner, Nomad, Rockerboy, Solo, and Techie. Roles give you three advantages in the skill tree.

• (1) Each role gets a special skill, no other class can get – i.e. a Fixer get “streetdeal” just like in the PnP. I have changed three special skills, namely now Corporates have finances, Nomads get weapons stash, and Rockerboys get performance. This is because the original skills from the PnP for these roles would be difficult to translate to a crpg.
• (2) Each role has 2 skill groups they specialize in. For instance, a Media role player specializes in Empathy and General Knowledge. Specializing in a skill group means that all skills in that group are available to the player without regard to skills invested in the skill tree. So from the beginning of the game, Interview is an available skill to Media role-player, despite it normally requiring 40 points invested in the Charisma skill tree.
• (3) In addition, specializing in a skill group means that each skill in that group only requires ½ of a skill point.

My idea assumes a level cap of 50. The player is given 10 skill points at the games beginning, gains 5 skill points for every level first 10 levels, 3 skill points between levels 11 and 30, and 1 skill points for every level between 31 and 50. That’s a total of 150 skill points max. There are a total of 61 skills available to a player. Each skill can have multiple points invested in it for increased effects. I am assuming to fill all the skill trees, one would need approximately 250 skill points.

So that was my suggestion. Anybody else want to give it a shot? Or just tell me what you think. Does any of that even make sense? Maybe I should just go to bed ...

Why the hell would they use the TW3 skill system which was boring, broken, overcomplicated and dull(for 100 long hour game)? I felt Witcher 2 had a much better and intuitive system but it designed for a 30 long hour game. I wouldn't use any of the Witcher games for Cyberpunks leveling. Like kofeiiniturpa said CP 2020 already has a good starting point.

 

[Rawls]

CP2020 does indeed have an excellent starting point but I doubt they will use character points instead of leveling. Rolling for stats just seems unlikely to me. Which will in turn mean that skills progression will have to be done differently. I could very easily be wrong. It happens quite frequently. I think it will definitely be heavily based off CP2020, but regardless I wouldn't be surprised if it is somewhat different. The OP was my attempt to blend the CP 2020 systems into something like what CDPR already had in Red Engine 3. Again not saying it's the best way to do it at all. Just wanted to give it a try to start some discussion.

 

[Suhiira]

I never liked randomly generated stats in the first place, and CP2020 has a perfectly good stat buy system.

And I'm totally opposed to what's become standard in supposed RPGs ... confusing actions for skills.

 

[Rawls]

And I'm totally opposed to what's become standard in supposed RPGs ... confusing actions for skills.

I agree with that. Most of the skills hopefully will be fairly faithful translations from the PnP. Combat sense, performance, leadership a few others would have to be adapted somewhat to work right but most of them could be relatively faithful. If you want to have melee & fighting skills I think some of them ought to reflect specific actions for people who like those play styles, but for the most part I think the skills translate well. Most of the knowledge ones would be additional dialogue, additional glossary entries available, and a boost in a skill (i.e. systems knowledge would give you a boast to hack success and etc). The diplomacy ones effect persuasion, intimidation, reputation, and so forth. The crafting related ones effect the type of gear you can make or repair. I don't want it too be all % increases and a few fancy moves either. The variety in this game will have to be much greater than in TW series. That's a given. I think they've said that from their first conference when they announced a CP IP.

 

[Suhiira]

I don't want it too be all % increases and a few fancy moves either.

What ?!?

Buck the system?
Dare to be different then 90%+ of the games out there?
Remain true to the PnP game CP2077 is based on?

You're a radical Rawls , a damn radical!

 

[Riven-Twain]

Rawdical.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Most of the knowledge ones would be additional dialogue, additional glossary entries available, and a boost in a skill (i.e. systems knowledge would give you a boast to hack success and etc). The diplomacy ones effect persuasion, intimidation, reputation, and so forth. The crafting related ones effect the type of gear you can make or repair. I don't want it too be all % increases and a few fancy moves either. The variety in this game will have to be much greater than in TW series. That's a given. I think they've said that from their first conference when they announced a CP IP.

With skills, I'd like to see a more subtle, "nuanced" version of Gothic (you would feel clumsy at first and then your actions would become more fluid, in three stages).
With ( specific) firearms for example, you'd gradually improve your control of recoil, reticule accuracy, reload speed, etc. No damage improvements...your bullets do not become magically stronger.
With combat it's pretty straightforward, but with other skillls this depends on how they'd work.
We all do not like progression system filled with +x% improvements...but skills are mandatory for an rpg. That part at least, Fallout got right. It was well organized and divided for very easy comprehension, even if implementation of skills was poor ( Bethesda did a dumb, senseless thing by turning them into perks...for the first time, they ended up making their own systems Less accessible).
Based on your skill level ( and stats requirements), you'd gain access to perks...these would be unique abilities ( Witcher equivalent : alternate sign form or cast from adrenaline points) distinguishing further one player from another. Also perks should never be designed in tiered levels...a common mistake by developers: this "dilutes" them and makes the whole system weaker. Each should feel unique.

 

[Rawls]

You're a radical Rawls , a damn radical!

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I never liked randomly generated stats in the first place, and CP2020 has a perfectly good stat buy system.

I like random rolls. Point buy works and lets you finetune for more accurate depiction of what sort of character you wish to play, but sometimes it's just fun to roll a completely random somebody (not rerolling 100 times for optimal results, but taking the first or second that you roll straight up) and see where and how far that takes you, how fun playing such a character might be when you really need to adapt to the unexpected. I kinda hope that is possible in CP2077.

 

[tropit9]

how special abilities will work in game?

assuming we will have classes, how will their special abilities work in game?

i imagine:
solo: a limited perios slow mo max pain style, zero reticule and spread, hard ressit to shock and pain up to critical not including limb damage. on mortal and/or limb loss such as leg or arm, you can shot a few last round before dying/ gerring evacd by trauma team. assuming one has that thingie which pin them to your location when you flatline. has a cooldawn period obviosly.

nomad: a timed dealyed abilitie which you can call up to several family members to your location. in ac brothrhood there was a recharable ability to call three assasions to attack from anywhere in the game, somthing akin to this. of course has a cooldawn. you have to survive until they arrive, from their nearest location possible.

techie: make makeshift weapons out of varity of junk in field fixor improve weapons or cybernetics or acpa, etc' really fast , of course hinderd when underfire. has the abilety to unjam weapon? not sure about him.

cop: win at chicken games, if you know the show banshee, think lucas simms. a really tough mothorfucker attidute can net you a no fight outcome, or scare your opponent shitless so they will not be in theyre "game" and miss a lot, tripp while running etc'. do not konw if you can call fo backup too, but it's probable.

media: jurnalist card anyone? can access "backstage areas" more easly. a smooth talker, can get the information you want to, or at least make it another day if the other party really do not like you snooping around.

i have more ideas but i want to hear other opinions.