RPG Mechanics: Skill Progression and Roles

[dynamite_inc]

Why would there be classes in a world where supposedly anyone with enough money and resources can get augmented and get any ability they want? Plus a class system defeats the purpose of having customizable characters that you can build to specialize in different things, and instead force you into specific play styles, which in turn would force the game to be designed to only accommodate for those styles. In short, it's detrimental because the game will lay out all of the choices you're going to be able to make throughout the game right when you create your character.

 

[Sardukhar]

Hey, guys.

I merged with an older thread discussing some of these very questions. Has an interesting idea set and corresponding discussion.

 

[Calistarius]

Why would there be classes in a world where supposedly anyone with enough money and resources can get augmented and get any ability they want? Plus a class system defeats the purpose of having customizable characters that you can build to specialize in different things, and instead force you into specific play styles, which in turn would force the game to be designed to only accommodate for those styles. In short, it's detrimental because the game will lay out all of the choices you're going to be able to make throughout the game right when you create your character.

As far as I know you are not locked to only doing the things that is normally associated with said roles (class as you called it) in CP2020.

As far as I remember someone saying on this forum, the way CP2020 handles Roles is that you get one special thing (might be a specific skill I think) that only that role can use... but then when it comes to all other "normal" skills that everybody has access to, then you could build your character just as you wish.

I know there are a lot of games (both pen and paper rpg's, and computer/console games as well) where if you choice a certain class then that character can only do the things associated with that class... but not all games are like that (CP2020 being one of them as far as I know), most pnp rpg games I have played are not like that (think that comes from the fact that I have mostly only played Swedish pnp rpg's, and most (like in the 90-95+%) Swedish pnp rpg's that get made all tend to be "skill based" rather then "level based"). Most of these games, which does not restrict what skill your character can use, still tend to have "classes" though... but not to restrict what said character can do, but to represent what kind of job, and or things, your character had/did befor (and maybe still have/does at) the moment that you start playing that character.

And that is how I personally look at things like "class/roles/profession/etc" that you can choice in a rpg based game... that it tells you what your character spent the majority of their time/life doing befor "this moment in time" (when you start playing the character). I do generally agree with you though, that you should not be all that restricted from making what ever character you want... but I do feel that you can have something like "class/roles/professions"etc" in games without it actualy restricting you, since the majority of it should be esentually fluff... backstory... for your character... which might give you certain bonuses and/or advantages on certain things which other classes/roles might not get due to that they spend their life on doing something else.

I don't know what CP2077 will be here... I am hoping for that CDPR does keep that aspect of CP2020 in, where your free to make what ever character you want to (no matter which role you choice)... and I think they might do that, due to that they have said they want to stay true to the original pnp RPG, but you never know what a game dev might choose to do for X reasons during the games development.

 

[dynamite_inc]

Yeah, that makes sense, I wish I had played the original cyberpunk 2020 before posting, since what you described seems very reasonable. I can definitely see the game having a class system like system shock 2 where it determines your starting stats and abilities, but then you're free to build your character how you like. I'm hoping we get a class system that maybe also affects starting conditions like location and quests if this is the case.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

As far as I know you are not locked to only doing the things that is normally associated with said roles (class as you called it) in CP2020.

As far as I remember someone saying on this forum, the way CP2020 handles Roles is that you get one special thing (might be a specific skill I think) that only that role can use... but then when it comes to all other "normal" skills that everybody has access to, then you could build your character just as you wish.

I know there are a lot of games (both pen and paper rpg's, and computer/console games as well) where if you choice a certain class then that character can only do the things associated with that class... but not all games are like that (CP2020 being one of them as far as I know), most pnp rpg games I have played are not like that (think that comes from the fact that I have mostly only played Swedish pnp rpg's, and most (like in the 90-95+%) Swedish pnp rpg's that get made all tend to be "skill based" rather then "level based"). Most of these games, which does not restrict what skill your character can use, still tend to have "classes" though... but not to restrict what said character can do, but to represent what kind of job, and or things, your character had/did befor (and maybe still have/does at) the moment that you start playing that character.

And that is how I personally look at things like "class/roles/profession/etc" that you can choice in a rpg based game... that it tells you what your character spent the majority of their time/life doing befor "this moment in time" (when you start playing the character). I do generally agree with you though, that you should not be all that restricted from making what ever character you want... but I do feel that you can have something like "class/roles/professions"etc" in games without it actualy restricting you, since the majority of it should be esentually fluff... backstory... for your character... which might give you certain bonuses and/or advantages on certain things which other classes/roles might not get due to that they spend their life on doing something else.

I don't know what CP2077 will be here... I am hoping for that CDPR does keep that aspect of CP2020 in, where your free to make what ever character you want to (no matter which role you choice)... and I think they might do that, due to that they have said they want to stay true to the original pnp RPG, but you never know what a game dev might choose to do for X reasons during the games development.

How much of CP2020's characteristics will be adapted into CP2077? 20% or maybe 45%? They mentioned that some things woudn't make the transition such as the use of passive skills during combat, but they won't include some characteristics due to imcompatibilty with the gameplay? Or just for the sake of convenience?

Spoiler

"OH YEAH BOYS, WE GOTTA RELEASE THE GAME BEFORE 2020 AND FOCUS MAINLY ON WORLD'S GRAPHICS TO GATHER CASUAL PLAYERS"

Are we going to get a dumbed down game like Skyrim or Fallout 4 where progress is basically "Go to X Kill X", and you can progress through any obstacles by easily killing anything on your path, making non combat skills irrelevant. This is my biggest fear.

Theres no chalenge when your weapon can solve all the problems. If there's no obstacle for your gun then there's no point in developing a charisma skill or any other non combat skill at all, oh you spend 15 skill points in lockpicking skills? Well here's your extra $20 bucks for opening that chest. I was playing Arcanum the other day and found a unique armor after lockpicking a chest, now that's how you give the player the felling of acomplishment.

Spoiler

"And the award for the most bitter user in this forum goes to.."

 

[metalmaniac21]

Gotta drop that offtop bomb

CD Projekt RED: "We are making CP 2077 a true RPG, not a MMO, not a shooter"
Same people: "Combat shouldn't be affected by stat numbers"

 

[Calistarius]

How much of CP2020's characteristics will be adapted into CP2077? 20% or maybe 45%? They mentioned that some things woudn't make the transition such as the use of passive skills during combat, but they won't include some characteristics due to imcompatibilty with the gameplay? Or just for the sake of convenience?

That is the question is'nt it. And we don't really have a lot to go on either in the form of information about it.

Some things they have said does suggest that they might keep in a large portion of it (for example, I seem to recall having read them saying that you would be able to print out your character directly from CP2077 and be able to play it through the pnp rpg rules system... or that it is supposed to be a "true rpg", even though that could mean a lot of different things really I guess due to that what a "true rpg" is is pretty much compleatly opinion based (for me a "true rpg" is something which is very simmilar to pen and paper rpg's in a lot of ways, preferably skill based systems as well (which is something you don't see a lot of in the videogame industry... most video game rpg's tend to be level based systems))... but at the same time other things they have said, and their previous history with the Witcher games, does potentually suggest that it might lose maybe more of the CP2020 rules system then what most of us pnp rpg lovers might like. We just don't know at the moment.

 

[dynamite_inc]

Gotta drop that offtop bomb

CD Projekt RED: "We are making CP 2077 a true RPG, not a MMO, not a shooter"
Same people: "Combat shouldn't be affected by stat numbers"

You're not getting that part of the point of an rpg is to let you play in a realistic simulation of another world. In pen and paper rpgs, explicit stats were only shown to the player because otherwise there was no way of knowing how his abilities worked, but that's not the case in video games because you can actually see your weapons, tools and movements on screen. It's more realistic, and therefore more immersive, to let the graphics and not numbers do the talking when it comes to combat stats.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

As far as I remember someone saying on this forum, the way CP2020 handles Roles is that you get one special thing (might be a specific skill I think) that only that role can use... but then when it comes to all other "normal" skills that everybody has access to, then you could build your character just as you wish.

To my recollection there were also IP multipliers for skills that were outside your career package. Meaning that - for one example - your Media has a lot harder, if not downright impossible, time getting to be that assault weapons master than your Solo or Cop. And that's how it should be too. And more over, the chosen career should mean more too (specific dialog, specific missions, specific encounters, specific solutions, specific NPC acquaintances...). If it is just one skill to differentiate the roles and that's it (that wasn't how I ever played 2020, but I can't recall if that's the rules exactly... one skill, nothing more...), there's no reason to have them, just throw that one skill there, call it an "inheritance skill" and tell the player to choose one (that'd be boring though).

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

their previous history with the Witcher games, does potentually suggest that it might lose maybe more of the CP2020 rules system then what most of us pnp rpg lovers might like. We just don't know at the moment.

Cyberpunk 2077 will be level based and the skills willl be 85% focused on combat then.

Removing passive abilities is a mistake.

CD Projekt RED: "We are making CP 2077 a true RPG, not a MMO, not a shooter" Same people: "Combat shouldn't be affected by stat numbers"

Well based on the most part of the current gaming industry:

Game with 85% of the skills focused on combat: True RPG.

Game with 99% of the skills focused on combat: shooter.

 

[metalmaniac21]

You're not getting that part of the point of an rpg is to let you play in a realistic simulation of another world. In pen and paper rpgs, explicit stats were only shown to the player because otherwise there was no way of knowing how his abilities worked, but that's not the case in video games because you can actually see your weapons, tools and movements on screen. It's more realistic, and therefore more immersive, to let the graphics and not numbers do the talking when it comes to combat stats.

In video games it's both visual and stat output, not the any other way around. Visual representation will never show one critical thing - how good you are with anything you touch in "another world", you just good by default. Guess what, this detail defines the character, the very crucial thing in RPG.

Deus Ex and Bloodlines with System Shock 2 were mentioned like 1000x times as a prime examples of what was already done to be considered an RPG in modern era without losing "realistic simulation of another world".

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

You're not getting that part of the point of an rpg is to let you play in a realistic simulation of another world. In pen and paper rpgs, explicit stats were only shown to the player because otherwise there was no way of knowing how his abilities worked, but that's not the case in video games because you can actually see your weapons, tools and movements on screen. It's more realistic, and therefore more immersive, to let the graphics and not numbers do the talking when it comes to combat stats.

I view it a bit differently. The point, as the name RPG suggests, is the simulation of another character (what ever character) and there it goes wrong when the player is "more" in charge than the stats that are supposed to dictate who the person/object/entity being played is supposed to be at the moment (and who he is not). The player being "in charge" means that it's always just a virtual costume for the player, not unlike Gordon Freeman, rather than a designated role to play the way RPG's are usually played (i.e. he has no weaknesses of his own, he has no strengths of his own, he might have features that affect him, but ultimately - whether it suits or not - he is just as good or bad as the player with his control scheme and that's not RPG anymore, it's... arcade).

 

[Calistarius]

To my recollection there were also IP multipliers for skills that were outside your career package. Meaning that - for one example - your Media has a lot harder, if not downright impossible, time getting to be that assault weapons master than your Solo or Cop. And that's how it should be too. And more over, the chosen career should mean more too (specific dialog, specific missions, specific encounters, specific solutions, specific NPC acquaintances...). If it is just one skill to differentiate the roles and that's it (that wasn't how I ever played 2020, but I can't recall if that's the rules exactly... one skill, nothing more...), there's no reason to have them, just throw that one skill there, call it an "inheritance skill" and tell the player to choose one (that'd be boring though).

That does tend to be true on most pnp rpg's I have played... where certain skills are easier to obtain higher levels of for certain roles/classes/jobs, be it either by the multiplier you mentioned for skills outside of the choicen class... or by for example supplying different amount of points for different "types" of skills (which is something the latest edition of my favorit pnp rpg did).

 

[0248991]

Hi,
My idea is that:
- Character has several attributes as in standard pen and paper (strength, hp, agility,...)
- Selecting role at beginning of game adds a bit to attributes, depending on role selected (fighter +1 strength, hacker +1 intellect, ..)
- Player can do any action, that does not require specialized knowledge - he can normally jump, speak, fight, shoot, ...
- Specialized actions - e.g. hacking, parkour, using bombs - require talents spend
- There are 4 talent trees - Mercenary (weapons tree), Brainiac (technology tree), Adept (stealth, communication), Corporator (dunno now )
- Single talent is earned by leveling up; with exception described in edited section below

EDIT:
- attributes are increased automatically by doing some actions often; as done in skyrim (e.g. hit somebody = +1 strength)
- sum of all attributes caps depending on level - to prevent "attributes hunting" by doing every action possible
- attributes are used for calculations about actions - e.g. how far player jumps/can jump = agility*(current_speed),...
- Some quests have defined something called "major actions" which binds to talent trees. If player does major action, he gets bonus talent point
(e.g. If there is quest for player to decide what to do with some prisoners; and he kills them all cold-blooded, he gets Military talent)

With these combinations, player can mix class with talents and play e.g. Journalist-Brainiac and so on..

 

[dynamite_inc]

I view it a bit differently. The point, as the name RPG suggests, is the simulation of another character (what ever character) and there it goes wrong when the player is "more" in charge than the stats that are supposed to dictate who the person/object/entity being played is supposed to be at the moment (and who he is not). The player being "in charge" means that it's always just a virtual costume for the player, not unlike Gordon Freeman, rather than a designated role to play the way RPG's are usually played (i.e. he has no weaknesses of his own, he has no strengths of his own, he might have features that affect him, but ultimately - whether it suits or not - he is just as good or bad as the player with his control scheme and that's not RPG anymore, it's... arcade).

I'm quoting kofeiiniturpa, but I'm also addressing but I'm also addressing you metalmaniac. I definitely agree that in an rpg you need the character to define your actions, not the player. What I meant wasn't that character stats should excluded and everything left to player skill, but rather that they should be shown to the player through gameplay rather than just act as a passive stat. For example, in dark souls your stats affect your character's movement and controls, and you can actually see, not just read, the consequences of your decisions. Leaving the player in control is fine as long as his stats influence the way he moves and is forced to play according to his stats like in Prey and System shock 2 like you mentioned metalmaniac.

 

[metalmaniac21]

The problem is, CDPR seems not too fond of this approach, "we don't want stats affecting combat" means gutting stats from combat altogether, without any if or but.

 

[Calistarius]

The problem is, CDPR seems not too fond of this approach, "we don't want stats affecting combat" means gutting stats from combat altogether, without any if or but.

Can you post a link to where they said that? The "we don't want stats affecting combat"-part... or something like that. Because I don't recall having read that befor... I might of course have read it befor and just forgoten it... but I could not find anything particular like that when googling around a bit.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

The problem is, CDPR seems not too fond of this approach, "we don't want stats affecting combat" means gutting stats from combat altogether, without any if or but.

Come on, I think you misinterpreted something, there's no way the combat system won't be affected by stats! Maybe CDPR were talking about not focusing A LOT on numbers higly influencing the combat gameplay, and rather about focusing MORE in the player skills during in game combat.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Can you post a link to where they said that? The "we don't want stats affecting combat"-part... or something like that.

Starting at 3:01.

"We certainly want to avoid the situation where your combat capabilities are that much dependent on the stats. It's about your own skill."

That made me quite worried about this game already back then and still irks me, and since there's been said nothing of the contrary, the only conclusion to draw is that combat will be pew-pew shooter combat. Hopefully - truly and sincerely - that's not fully the case and there's something lost in translation in the dudes obvious struggle to put his idea into spoken English, but that's the only info we have and it's official info.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Game 100% dependent on stats = Dice game with no challenges besides leveling up.
Game 100% dependent on player's "skill" with no stats = Call of Duty.

Dark Souls is an action RPG with a good balance between both, at least regarding combat gameplay.

Spoiler

@kofeiiniturpa DUDE DARK SOULS LMAO COWABUNGA! XDDDD