CD Projeckt Red's "Cyberpunk" trademark not valid?

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CD Projeckt Red's "Cyberpunk" trademark not valid?

I just read this statement from Bruce Bethke, the inventor of the term "Cyberpunk", who doesn't sound happy with CDPR's choice to trademark the term, and who also points out that somebody previously filed a trademark for "Cyberpunk", but the trademark didn't hold up when challenged because it was too ambiguous, whereas "Cyberpunk 2020" or "Cyberpunk 2077" are valid trademarks.


http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/...077-trademark/


My understanding of American trademark law is that trademark depends on context. While you can trademark a logotype or a unique variation – eg, as I recall, R. Talsorian Games’ trademark was specifically for a role-playing game named ‘Cyberpunk 2020’ – you can’t just trademark a word for all purposes everywhere. Hence when some company back in the 1980s tried to claim a trademark on the word ‘cyberpunk’ because they were publishing a Cyberpunk comic book, well, tough – it didn’t hold up.

I do rather wish someone from CD Projekt RED would contact me, though, to clarify a few of my concerns.


I guess this means that the CDPR trademark on "Cyberpunk" won't hold up, if challenged in any way?
 
I think alot of people are confusing "copyrights" with "trademarks."

They don't have sole use of the word. They've put it in place the way they have to protect their work. The easiest way I can explain is with examples.



"Greggs's Story: a Slightly Cyberpunk Tale" - would be perfectly fine for anyone to use as a name

"Cyberpunk 2088" - Not ok for someone to do, because it is like copy and pasting someone's work and changing a few words, then claiming it as your own. Still plagiarism


They did it this way BECAUSE Cyberpunk is such a widely used word, and it was the best way to keep their stuff separate from the rest without stopping people from using the word Cyberpunk.

https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks-getting-started/trademark-basics/trademark-patent-or-copyright

That explains it better than me.
 
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Oh Lord... this again.

I''m just going to quote myself from the last thread about this.

Corewolf;n8283170 said:
Trademark: a symbol, word, or words legally registered or established by use as representing a company or product.

A good example of this would be the word Coke

Coke (tm): A soft drink better known as Coca-Cola
Coke: a fuel with few impurities and a high carbon content, usually made from coal and used in production of Carbon Steel
Coke: A drug derived from Cocaine

A trademark is just terminology used to refer to a term when it is used by a company to refer to their product specifically.

Coke is a registered trademark of the Coca-Cola company. What that basically means is that another company can't use the word to market an item under the same name.

So if we are talking about "Cyberpunk" as a trademark, we are referring to a specific work of fiction, in this case a video game (possibly series). The term would not be illegal to use in marketing anything else anymore than it would be illegal for me to sell "Coke coal" at a farm supply store. So long as I was using it appropriately. I can not produce a game and TITLE it Cyberpunk, for example, but I can make a game and when describing it on the back of the box say " a Cyberpunk adventure" (Since the common use of Cyberpunk has been around for ages).


For the record though, The current owner of Cyberpunk as a trademark is indeed CDPR

https://trademarks.justia.com/owners...t-s-a-3281943/

You can view it yourself on the link, or just read below
Trademark Owner History

Party Name
CD PROJEKT S.A.
Party Type
31 - 1st New Owner Entered After Registration
Legal Entity Type
11 - Company

Prior to them it was.

Party Name
R. Talsorian Games, Inc.
Party Type
30 - Original Registrant
Legal Entity Type
03 - Corporation


What that basically means is that another company can't use the word to market an item under the same name/brand.

I could make "Cyberpunk Cola" but if I make a videogame, I can't title it "Cyberpunk" as the overall title as it could concievably cause brand confusion with CDPR and the games they make (Typical consumer: "Ooh! Maybe it's a prequel or sequel or related to that Cyberpunk: 2077 I liked!!")

Also

Corewolf;n8283260 said:
There is an old space defense plan in the US that is titled under the name STAR WARS.

Now Star Wars is a Trademark of Disney. I don't see them going after the government, or vice versa

That trademark does NOT mean noone else can use the word, it means they can't use it in marketing goods without proper licensure or permission from Disney.

I can write a book called Star Wars and while there might be some legal squabbles, it isn't illegal. What WOULD be illegal is for me to say, produce a toy figurine that has blonde hair, a desert style tunic, a blue laser sword and call it a "Star Wars Toy"

I could call it Space Dude

I could call it Lake Spacewalker

But I cannot call it a Star Wars Toy, nor Luke Skywalker (as that is also trademarked)

All this does is keep people from producing goods or games and name them something in an attempt to deceive customers. It's being trademarked as a game title. Not copyrighted and kept from being used elsewhere anywhere.

Cyberpunk as a genre isn't going to suffer from the name being trademarked. It has been for decades.

Can we please put all of this trademark concern behind us now? We've had at least one other long thread about it, we don't need to have another bunch of web rumors stating how horrible CDPR are (they aren't) for doing a perfectly sensible and legal thing that other companies all do.
 
Corewolf;n8614470 said:
Oh Lord... this again.

I''m just going to quote myself from the last thread about this.




What that basically means is that another company can't use the word to market an item under the same name/brand.

I could make "Cyberpunk Cola" but if I make a videogame, I can't title it "Cyberpunk" as the overall title as it could concievably cause brand confusion with CDPR and the games they make (Typical consumer: "Ooh! Maybe it's a prequel or sequel or related to that Cyberpunk: 2077 I liked!!")

Also



Can we please put all of this trademark concern behind us now? We've had at least one other long thread about it, we don't need to have another bunch of web rumors stating how horrible CDPR are (they aren't) for doing a perfectly sensible and legal thing that other companies all do.



Hello Coreworlf. Thanks for the response, but none of that addresses what is written in the thread OP, and I am generally understanding of what a trademark is, and how trademarks function.

It looks like CDPR's trademark of "Cyberpunk" is incapable of standing up to a challenge, since the exact same situation has happened before, with the person who claimed trademark over Cyberpunk losing their rights to the term upon challenge due to it being a generic word with a history of usage by many people.

I think that CDPR was not entitled to trademark a word that they have no hand in creating or making popular - their usage of the term Cyberpunk is only equal to anybody else's usage of the term, in that CDPR and anyone else is using a term created by somebody else, and made popular and recognizable by many other people and works. CDPR could have, and should have trademarked "Cyberpunk 2077". But the legal precedent involving "Cyberpunk" indicates that CDPR's trademark is invalid and effectively carries no weight, should anyone wish to make a title by that name.
 
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delicieuxz;n8579200 said:
eg, as I recall, R. Talsorian Games’ trademark was specifically for a role-playing game named ‘Cyberpunk 2020’ – you can’t just trademark a word for all purposes everywhere.

just searching the trademark database proves that's not true. they had the trademark "cyberpunk" since '89

as for what does and doesn't hold up, I cannot say. context matters, and CDPR said they have the trademark for protection. which should mean that they would only go to court if someone is obviously trying to abuse their brand. and that seems defendable.
 
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delicieuxz;n8836230 said:
Hello Coreworlf. Thanks for the response, but none of that addresses what is written in the thread OP, and I am generally understanding of what a trademark is, and how trademarks function.

It looks like CDPR's trademark of "Cyberpunk" is incapable of standing up to a challenge, since the exact same situation has happened before, with the person who claimed trademark over Cyberpunk losing their rights to the term upon challenge due to it being a generic word with a history of usage by many people.

I think that CDPR was not entitled to trademark a word that they have no hand in creating or making popular - their usage of the term Cyberpunk is only equal to anybody else's usage of the term, in that CDPR and anyone else is using a term created by somebody else, and made popular and recognizable by many other people and works. CDPR could have, and should have trademarked "Cyberpunk 2077". But the legal precedent involving "Cyberpunk" indicates that CDPR's trademark is invalid and effectively carries no weight, should anyone wish to make a title by that name.

you don't seem to understand that everything that Mike Pondsmith and Talsorian did transfers to CD Projekt. So legally, their history with genre is the same as Mike's and his team. Trademarking Cyberpunk was a right call as it protects company as well as customers. Besides, that trademark was established long time ago and nobody had a problem with it.
 
That means you can make a game with the name 2141: The Cyberpunk but not Cyberpunk 2141.

The trademark also means that it will be mainly valid in the gaming industry.
 
Tarathelion;n8845140 said:
Trademarking Cyberpunk was a right call as it protects company as well as customers.

To simply and fairly protect their game from being confused with similar products, CDPR would Trademark 'Cyberpunk 2077', and then they could easily challenge any similarly formatted game titles, such as 'Cyberpunk 1053'. Trademarking does not protect customers, that argument is totally being a company's apologist.


Besides, that trademark was established long time ago and nobody had a problem with it.

That is, of course, a false statement. There were people expressing problems with it everywhere that the trademark was reported on gaming news sites - which resulted in CDPR acknowledging that people had a problem with it by making a public statement concerning their action to trademark 'Cyberpunk' and their intentions. Also, please have another look at the OP, because it details that the creator of the term Cyberpunk has expressed dissatisfaction over CDPR's 'Cyberpunk' trademark.


Lisbeth_Salander;n8845220 said:
That means you can make a game with the name 2141: The Cyberpunk but not Cyberpunk 2141.

The trademark also means that it will be mainly valid in the gaming industry.

Yes, but trademarking 'Cyberpunk 2077' would have had that effect. Trademarking 'Cyberpunk' is over-reaching into territory that is not relevant to Cyberpunk 2077.
 
delicieuxz;n8850210 said:
That is, of course, a false statement.

No, not really. The Trademark on "Cyberpunk" was originally established by R.Talosian games in 1988. This is the same trademark that CDPR is taking over.

The simple fact is that in 1988, the internet wasn't a thing and people didn't get upjumped about corporations doing what they do. So no, when the original trademark was established a long time ago, nobody had a problem with it.

People are having a problem with it now "expressing problems with it everywhere that the trademark was reported on gaming news sites" is because they do not understand what the term "trademark" means.

delicieuxz said:
It looks like CDPR's trademark of "Cyberpunk" is incapable of standing up to a challenge, since the exact same situation has happened before, with the person who claimed trademark over Cyberpunk losing their rights to the term upon challenge due to it being a generic word with a history of usage by many people.

You have an article or source for that statement? because as above. the US trademark office validated the CDPR claim to Cyberpunk as a trademark. And it's been trademarked by R.Talosian Games prior to that since 1988, so I find your statement a bit hard to believe when there is information directly showing that it has been trademarked 29 years

delicieuxz;n8850210 said:
Trademarking 'Cyberpunk' is over-reaching into territory that is not relevant to Cyberpunk 2077.

It's not overreaching at all. It is protecting their business assets the same way the term "Half-Life" is a trademark of Valve Inc. or "Warhammer" is a trademark of Games Workshop. If CDPR only trademarked "Cyberpunk 2077" I could go and release a game called "Cyberpunk 2078" and there is little they can do about it. Trademarking "Cyberpunk" makes it so that other developers in the gaming industry cannot use it as the cornerstone of a title, which is good because it would lead to issues if every 3rd rate knockoff app producer could produce "Cyberpunk 2***" or whatever. Trademarks are the reason that you see games titled "Age of Ancients" rather than "DOTA 53" It keeps unscrupulous people from taking advantage of an ignorant public.

Now let me ask this. Personally, what issue do you have with a company using the word "Cyberpunk" as a trademark in regards to the title of a video game? How does it impact you personally? It doesn't prohibit you from using the word, It creates no problem or impact on your life unless you publish media using it as the title and generally try to make it seem like it is part of the same body of work, so why all this concern?

I can make a game or write a book called "Techfall: Cyberpunk" or a movie called "Neo-Cyberpunk" and there is no conflict of issue. I can call a piece of literature or movie, like Altered Carbon or Blade Runner "Cyberpunk" without the meaning being confused or the trademark being violated. I fail to understand what anyone has issue with this for.
 
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US copyright, trademark, and patent laws are so convoluted it's not even funny. I've seen so many ridiculous law suits over these things. Companies sometimes have to sue over copyrights and trademarks just so that they can claim they have tried to defend it (google the Bethesda/Mojang lawsuit over Scrolls) less they loose the copyright or trademark. Don't even get me started on the "Patent Trolls" who sue just because it's cheaper to settle out of court and make millions every year doing only this. John Oliver covered this on Last Week Tonight. It's on YouTube if you're interested.
 
That would mean someone could trademark Cyberpunk 2078 and pass it as a sequel. thats dangerous. this is the danger of titling your game with such a common name...

i suggest CDPR quickly trademarks Cyberppunk 2078-2099.
 
I'm not a intellectual property lawyer, but I am a lawyer. From what I remember from school this is a fairly accurate summary of trademark law (at least in the United States) - https://academic.oup.com/jla/article...ity-Reexamined

A mark is a source-identifying symbol. Consumers rely on marks to distinguish one brand of a product from another.[SUP]4[/SUP] When a consumer sees CREST on a tube of toothpaste, for example, he can be confident that the particular toothpaste tube came from the same source as every other tube marked CREST. This works, however, only if the consumer can rely on CREST to designate a single source of toothpaste. Trademark law protects this source-identifying function by preventing others from using the same or similar symbol in a way likely to confuse consumers. This protection is justified as reducing consumer search costs, avoiding harm to consumers from purchasing the wrong product, supporting seller incentives to maintain product quality, and preventing injury to or misappropriation of a seller’s goodwill.[SUP]5[/SUP]

The search cost rationale treats the mark as a device for efficiently communicating product information to the marketplace (1 McCarthy 2014, § 3:5; Landes & Posner 2003, pp. 166–168). When a mark reliably indicates a single source, consumers can use it to retrieve information about product quality that they learn from advertising, word of mouth, and personal experience. For example, assuming uniform quality, a consumer who sees CREST on a tube of toothpaste can be confident that the toothpaste in the tube has the qualities she expects from CREST toothpaste. Without the mark, consumers would have to search for this information in other, presumably more costly, ways. Moreover, if searching is too costly, consumers might buy another company’s inferior product bearing the same mark thinking it came from the original seller. The result would be allocative inefficiency, and possibly even serious personal injury to consumers.

In addition, with trademark protection, a seller can use the mark to communicate the high quality of its product to consumers, and this gives the seller an incentive to maintain and even improve that quality.[SUP]6[/SUP] Without trademark protection, competitors could sell lower quality products (presumably manufactured at a lower cost) under the same mark for a lower price.[SUP]7[/SUP] Consumers would buy at the lower price believing, incorrectly, that the competitor’s product is the same high quality as the original seller’s. The original seller then would be forced to lower the quality of its product to match the competitor’s price and recapture its customers. The result would be a ratcheting down of product quality.[SUP]8[/SUP]

Finally, courts from time to time have justified protection on the ground that free riding on a firm’s goodwill or injuring that goodwill is unfair (Bone 2006). In this regard, trademark law focuses on protecting sellers as well as consumers.[SUP]9[/SUP] However, these seller-focused justifications are highly controversial, and it is not clear how much of a role they play separate from consumer-based rationales (Bone 2012, pp. 1355–1357).

Thus, trademark law is different from copyright and patent. The latter aim to incentivize the creation of intellectual products—original works of authorship in the case of copyright and inventions in the case of patent. The primary purpose of trademark law is to prevent others from using source-identifying symbols to confuse consumers about source or sponsorship. Even the trademark policy of facilitating product quality is not necessarily about incentivizing product improvements, but rather about preventing the erosion of incentives already created by other forms of IP protection. To be sure, insofar as trademark protection allows a seller to reap greater profits, it can have the indirect effect of stimulating innovation, but this is not its primary purpose.

Trademark doctrine tracks this policy framework. Any type of symbol or device can serve as a trademark as long as it is capable of functioning as a source identifier. This includes words such as CREST for toothpaste, short phrases such as “YOU’RE FIRED” for entertainment services, and logos such as the Nike swoosh. It also includes visible features of a product’s configuration or packaging—so-called “trade dress.” Trade dress has been defined as “the total image of a product and may include features such as size, shape, color or color combinations, texture, graphics, or even particular sales techniques.”[SUP]10[/SUP] Examples include the visible dual-spring design of a road sign, the interior décor of a restaurant, the contrasting red color on the outsoles of Louboutin shoes, the smell of scented sewing thread, the sound of the NBC chimes, and even Goats-on-a-Roof, live goats grazing on the sod roof of a Swedish restaurant.[SUP]11[/SUP] Each of these features can become a source identifier if consumers associate the feature with products sold by only one firm.

To make out a prima facie case for trademark infringement, the plaintiff must prove that it owns rights in a protectable mark and that the defendant’s use of a similar mark infringes those rights (American Law Institute 1995, § 20). For a mark to be protectable, it must be distinctive, and for a mark to be distinctive, it must be at least capable of serving as a source identifier (2 McCarthy 2014, § 11:1). The rules for determining distinctiveness are somewhat complicated and there is no need to parse the details. Briefly, some marks, classified as “inherently distinctive,” are protected as soon as they are used in trade, whereas others require proof that the mark has acquired what is called “secondary meaning” (2 ibid., § 11:4).[SUP]12[/SUP] A mark is said to have secondary meaning when a significant portion of the consuming public actually uses it to identify a unique source of the product (2 ibid., § 16:34). For example, a fabricated word such as KODAK, coined just to serve as a mark, is inherently distinctive and protected as soon as it is used in trade, whereas a descriptive term such as FISH-FRI adopted as a mark for a batter mix used to fry fish requires proof of secondary meaning; that is, proof that consumers actually associate FISH-FRI with a batter mix sold by only one firm (the mark owner).[SUP]13[/SUP] The rules for determining the distinctiveness of trade dress are even more complicated, and once again there is no need to delve into the details. Roughly speaking, trade dress that is part of the packaging of a product can sometimes be inherently distinctive, whereas trade dress that is a component of the product itself can never be inherently distinctive and thus always requires proof of secondary meaning.[SUP]14[/SUP]

Once a mark owner establishes distinctiveness and satisfies all the other requirements for a valid mark, it must then prove infringement. A mark is infringed when the defendant’s use of the same or similar mark is likely to confuse consumers about source or sponsorship.[SUP]15[/SUP] This infringement rule applies in the same way to trade dress as to any other type of mark. Thus, a defendant can be enjoined from selling a competing product with the same trade dress feature if its use of that feature is likely to confuse consumers.

Trade dress protection, however, gives rise to a special problem not present for other types of marks.[SUP]16[/SUP] Preventing firms from copying a product feature gives the original seller more than the exclusive use of a source identifier. It also gives it a potential monopoly over the feature itself. This is a particular concern when the feature is connected with something that consumers want when they buy the product, such as the shape of a wrench that improves its leverage. Trademark law is not supposed to confer monopolies in products; that is the province of copyright and patent (1 McCarthy 2014, § 6:3). Trademark law is supposed to bolster competition by facilitating the efficient communication of product information to the market and preventing unfair methods of competition.

Functionality is the trademark doctrine designed to handle this problem. When it applies, the functionality doctrine bars protection for useful or aesthetically pleasing trade dress even when the defendant’s use of the same trade dress is likely to confuse consumers. Much of the controversy over the scope of the doctrine has to do with what is required to bar protection beyond the fact that the feature serves some utilitarian or aesthetic purpose important to the product’s value.[SUP]17[/SUP] There are two different approaches historically. One approach assumes that nothing more is required, that all trade dress that contributes substantially to the performance of a product is barred. The other approach uses a more fact-sensitive competitive necessity test. This test bars protection only when copying the trade dress is a competitive necessity, in the sense that there are no, or very few, alternative forms of trade dress that are not confusingly similar and that competitors can use to compete effectively in the relevant product market. Courts disagree about the specifics of how each approach should operate and the types of trade dress to which each should apply—and why.

Basically, it's complicated but they would most likely be on solid footing if somebody made a video game called Cyberpunk 2078 that appeared in a similar style to their now trademark protected game. Just thought I'd give my limited contribution to the topic. Again I'm not an expert in this field of law ... but did have to pass an exam on it once upon a time. EDIT: The full article linked above goes on to discuss functionality but it's rather boring and not terribly relevant to this discussion ... I picked it because it's summary of trademark law is short and fairly accurate to my recollection.
 
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And if you disagree with Rawls, he will have you sued, then beaten, then sued again for fistal bruise damage.


I'm pretty sure that's how lawyeringese works. I've seen that Pesci movie.
 
I find this stuff interesting, and I can't help but think back to the whole Mojang / "Scrolls" issue with Zenimax. In that case, Zenimax lost the case because "scrolls" is a non-coined word, and you can't trademark a non-coined word. You can only trademark a specific product linked with a non-coined word. So, once a video game, for example, is called "Scrolls", no one else can make a video game that shares the same name, but I am free to create a shoe store or a sportscar called "Scrolls". This is opposed to specifically creating a word as a trademark, like "Zebinastra" to describe...anything I dang well please. I made the word up, and I own the trademark on the word itself.

"Cyberpunk" is an interesting one. It's a coined word, so it is technically up for grabs...but it's so well used in so many mediums (...books, films, games, artwork...) that I think the courts would likely deny the trademark on the actual word. It might as well be added to the list of non-coined words, at this point. Plus, as there is already a "dark future RPG involving the central theme of cybernetics" called "Cyberpunk 2020"...

But I think "Cyberpunk 2077" would likely go through. Personally, I like the idea of adding the date into the title just for the sake of avoiding Cyberpunk I, Cyberpunk II, etc.
 
SigilFey;n8881290 said:
"Cyberpunk" is an interesting one. It's a coined word, so it is technically up for grabs...but it's so well used in so many mediums (...books, films, games, artwork...) that I think the courts would likely deny the trademark on the actual word. It might as well be added to the list of non-coined words, at this point. Plus, as there is already a "dark future RPG involving the central theme of cybernetics" called "Cyberpunk 2020"...


Well, although R.Tal apparently trademarked it GURPS had GURPS Cyberpunk As far as I know, the only legal trouble they had was from the Secret Service. No, really, it's a funny story, check it out.

They added GURPS to the title, but that's like 2020 added to Cyberpunk and both were RPGs? So...I dunno?

 
Sardukhar;n8881460 said:
Well, although R.Tal apparently trademarked it GURPS had GURPS Cyberpunk As far as I know, the only legal trouble they had was from the Secret Service. No, really, it's a funny story, check it out.

They added GURPS to the title, but that's like 2020 added to Cyberpunk and both were RPGs? So...I dunno?

HA HA HA HA HA...!!!

Are you kidding me? (Here's the article if anyone else wants to read this.) They gave these people badges. And guns. And they tasked them with responsibility over others. People trusted their lives and safety to these individuals. And yet...this happened.

We need a slow-clap function for the forums.
 
Aye, the Secret Service story is all of true, funny, stupid, incredible and sad (in the slow-clap sense).

Anyway, regarding the OP - the TM has passed from the previous holder, R Talsorian Games, to CD Projekt Red, the new holder. It is every bit as valid and defensible as it was then, and I am certain I would have remembered a successful (or even unsuccessful) challenge to its status. More to the point, had there been a successful challenge, there would no longer be a TM to assert. So, bluntly, your source is full of it.
 
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