I'd like to see the Dimeritium Bomb effect removed from Clear Skies

[Yourfacetm]

I'd like to see the Dimeritium Bomb effect removed from Clear Skies

As of now, the only hard counter to weather cards is to remove all of the buffing you've done that round or even throughout the game in preparation for round 3.

Clear skies puts you in a lose lose situation. You either don't play it and lose the round or play it and remove all of your buffing up until that point. This actually makes weather inadvertently extremely powerful. They can play a weather card as if it IS a Dimeritium Bomb. "Well, either this will end this round for me completely or I will remove the 10-20 strength of buffing that the opponent has done". The latter is why Dimeritium Bomb is silver by itself.

The difference between a weather and a dimeritium bomb in this case is:

Cons:
-Weather can only be placed on a row (barring the cards that play two weathers or ragh nar roog)


Pros;
-Weather only has Dimer Bomb effect when removed, otherwise reduces all units down to 1 strength.

-Will be built into decks that aren't effected negatively by weather.

-Not only will the decks not have the negative effects of weather but they often will have offensive strategies enhanced by weather.

-Usuallly played in an amount that clear skies wouldn't be enough to combat.


All of this combined is why Clear Skies should return all units to the strength they were before the weather hit, and not their original strength.


Disclaimer: I am not biased against weather. I plan on using a weather deck and I played monsters for the majority of my KTS experience.

I'd love to here your thoughts/counter arguments.

 

[Mythic_Pilot]

I hope it wasn't intentional in KTS that weather resets buffs ,, like you said it's a lose-lose for you when you clear wether as if it wasn't enough wasting a few slots for a card that doesn't benefit you in the first place

 

[moljac024]

Agree, hopefully the buff reset in KTS was a bug or they will consider changing it. Weather does seem really strong now.

 

[LastAlpha]

the funny thing is cards kept their buffs in vanilla Gwent after CW, but buffs in vanilla worked differently I guess...

 

[Mythic_Pilot]

the funny thing is cards kept their buffs in vanilla Gwent after CW, but buffs in vanilla worked differently I guess...

You mean Witcher 3 Gwent ,, yeah the buffs were constant back then not a 1 time thing

 

[trulez]

Clear Skies does not have the effect of Dimetrium Bomb. It simply states that after removing weather all units affected by weather will return to their original value, which very logical and reasonable. I do not see a problem here.

 

[Mythic_Pilot]

Clear Skies does not have the effect of Dimetrium Bomb. It simply states that after removing weather all units affected by weather will return to their original value, which very logical and reasonable. I do not see a problem here.

It's not clear skies that do the reset ,, it's the other weather effects which is unfair

 

[trulez]

It's not clear skies that do the reset ,, it's the other weather effects which is unfair

Here's what Clear Skies says:
"Remove all weather effects from the battlefield and return all units that were affected by weather to their original strength."

So yes, it does remove buffs even if weather wouldn't.

 

[Mythic_Pilot]

The way it worked in KTS when a frosted Mahakam guard gets carried to the next round it loses the buffs even though clear skies wasn't used


The whole reset because of the weather is unfair

 

[Yourfacetm]

Clear Skies does not have the effect of Dimetrium Bomb. It simply states that after removing weather all units affected by weather will return to their original value, which very logical and reasonable. I do not see a problem here.

Dimeritium Bomb sets the strength of all units to their original value. Clear skies sets all units to their original value that was effected by weather. Same exact effect, only one is more focused. If we can't agree on this simple comparison, then we cannot debate any further.

I thought I explained why this is unbalanced but I will try again.

Do you know what is good against buffing decks? Its weather cards. Do you know what is also really good against buffing decks? Dimeritium Bomb. Why on earth is it logical and reasonable for the counter to weather cards be a card that effectively Dimeritium Bombs your own units? The person playing the weather cannot be countered or played around. Either they will get the dimeritium bomb effect since you used clear skies, or they will simply win due to your units being at 1 strength.

If losing all your buffs to a one time removal like Dimeritium Bomb isn't a problem then Dimeritium Bomb itself wouldn't be silver. Even CDPR understands that removing all buffs like that is powerful, why let the counter to weather decks have such terrible repercussions.

 

[LastAlpha]

I don't think weather is that OP, but it's true that Clear Sky is actually underwhelming compared to WC3 Gwent since buffs won't stay after weather.

 

[Yourfacetm]

I don't think weather is that OP, but it's true that Clear Sky is actually underwhelming compared to WC3 Gwent since buffs won't stay after weather.

I'm not trying to make the case that weather by itself is overpowered. I'm saying that since the counter to weather is self damaging, weather inadvertently becomes stronger. If clear skies would simply remove weather effects then we would be in a good place.

 

[Rethas]

All of this combined is why Clear Skies should return all units to the strength they were before the weather hit, and not their original strength.

How would you communicate this to the player taking into account any increases or decreases that have occurred in-between the weather being played and Clear Skies being played?

For example:

Unit A:
8 on the melee row.
The value is increased by 8.
The value is decreased by 10.
Frost is played setting its value to 1.
The value is increased by 5.
A horn is played doubling the value
Clear Skies is played

What value should the player expect at this time?

In order to plan the player generally needs to know what to expect when they will perform an action, with multiple units on a row being effected by multiple increases and decreases in different ways we found that users didn't know what to expect the outcome to be which was confusing and led to a frustrating experience.

We will be keeping a close eye on weather play as it is one of the aspects of the game we aren't the happiest with. We're reading forum feedback constantly and do consider things discussed here

 

[Mahakaman]

I feel like Weather in combination with Wounding just isn't a good fit, I hope the mechanics will be changed because I think it also limits the design space in a huge way.

 

[Tarathelion]

How would you communicate this to the player taking into account any increases or decreases that have occurred in-between the weather being played and Clear Skies being played?

For example:

Unit A:
8 on the melee row.
The value is increased by 8.
The value is decreased by 10.
Frost is played setting its value to 1.
The value is increased by 5.
A horn is played doubling the value
Clear Skies is played

What value should the player expect at this time?

In order to plan the player generally needs to know what to expect when they will perform an action, with multiple units on a row being effected by multiple increases and decreases in different ways we found that users didn't know what to expect the outcome to be which was confusing and led to a frustrating experience.

We will be keeping a close eye on weather play as it is one of the aspects of the game we aren't the happiest with. We're reading forum feedback constantly and do consider things discussed here

Well technically you could communicate this by placing extra number on a card so you would have one with weather having an impact on and one without, maybe great one in brackets. I am not saying its a good idea but you could. Anyway, I have a question if you are willing to answer. Are glifs (passive buffs) definitely gone from game?


The more i think about weather the more i think it should nerfed, maybe reducing units to half . It seems like the biggest balance problem atm

 

[Yourfacetm]

How would you communicate this to the player taking into account any increases or decreases that have occurred in-between the weather being played and Clear Skies being played?

For example:

Unit A:
8 on the melee row.
The value is increased by 8.
The value is decreased by 10.
Frost is played setting its value to 1.
The value is increased by 5.
A horn is played doubling the value
Clear Skies is played

What value should the player expect at this time?

In order to plan the player generally needs to know what to expect when they will perform an action, with multiple units on a row being effected by multiple increases and decreases in different ways we found that users didn't know what to expect the outcome to be which was confusing and led to a frustrating experience.

We will be keeping a close eye on weather play as it is one of the aspects of the game we aren't the happiest with. We're reading forum feedback constantly and do consider things discussed here

Firstly. Thank you for being a part of this community and communicating with us in these early stages of the game, it means a lot. Ill suggest how I'd like to see the above handled in game mechanic and how these complex stat changes can be communicated to the player for informed decision making.

With your example, the unit would be at 26 strength before the weather hits.

Unit: 26

After weather the value is increased by 5 meaning it has 6 strength total. Then is doubled. Since horn is now a one time thing, the value of horn is essentially a one time buff of 6 strength.

I don't have enough experience with balance to make this call but there is two ways to handle this. Either the strength can return to 26 as before the weather, and the buffs after the weather will be removed and considered to be used as a defense to having your unit destroyed by wounding effects. Think of that like a cost of survival.

The other way is to take the added 5 strength and added 6 strength and add them to the 26 when the weather is removed. This could be too powerful, but I would argue that these buffs would have been played if there was no weather and the unit would actually be a lot stronger. This is the way I would like the game to handle this mechanic.

Clear skies would result in

Unit: 26 + 5 + 6 =

Unit: 37

Lastly, the best way to handle communicating all of this to new players may be a simple tutorial on how it works coupled with an idea that has been brought up on this forum. I'll paraphrase because I can't remember fully. If a player in game would hover over clear skies, the cards on the board would show the strength they would be if that card was played. The adjusted numbers could be slightly bigger or a different color to separate it from their current state to avoid confusion. This could be with any card. If you hovered over the potion that gave 10 strength to a unit and dragged it over a unit on the board, the units strength would change and show the result of the 10 strength being added. Simple example but it would benefit new players and even pros who want to spend more time on whether or not they should play a certain card and less time on doing math in their head or on paper.


I imagine this will get even more involved when or if you guys decide to add constant buffs. But regardless of how the mechanics work, if the game shows the outcome of a cord you are hovering over or a card that you drag over a unit then there shouldn't be any games lost to a surprise.

Thank you for replying to this thread and letting me contribute my thoughts.



Edit:
If the card is increased by 5 and 6 and then has been wounded by 5 then I'd like to see the strength after clear skies only go up by 6. That would be the fair way to do it, and I imagine that that might be a coding nightmare lol.

Edit 2
Saw your reply regarding the information be displayed when hovering over a card. Even with that not being possible at the moment, I think the above changes would be good. A temporary fix would be to allow more time for a turn, that way if calculations are needed then the player will have time to do them.

 

[Ouderkirkj]

How would you communicate this to the player taking into account any increases or decreases that have occurred in-between the weather being played and Clear Skies being played?

For example:

Unit A:
8 on the melee row.
The value is increased by 8.
The value is decreased by 10.
Frost is played setting its value to 1.
The value is increased by 5.
A horn is played doubling the value
Clear Skies is played

What value should the player expect at this time?

In order to plan the player generally needs to know what to expect when they will perform an action, with multiple units on a row being effected by multiple increases and decreases in different ways we found that users didn't know what to expect the outcome to be which was confusing and led to a frustrating experience.

We will be keeping a close eye on weather play as it is one of the aspects of the game we aren't the happiest with. We're reading forum feedback constantly and do consider things discussed here

An extra card number (probably in a different color) somewhere on the edges, outside the edge of the card, or even on the row total would go a long way. Clear weather definitely should not be acting as a Dimeritium Bomb.

 

[Rethas]

An extra card number (probably in a different color) somewhere on the edges, outside the edge of the card, or even on the row total would go a long way. Clear weather definitely should not be acting as a Dimeritium Bomb.

That would make the interface quite cluttered and we already have two possible numbers on the cards (Strength and Timers).

 

[Rethas]

Firstly. Thank you for being a part of this community and communicating with us in these early stages of the game, it means a lot. Ill suggest how I'd like to see the above handled in game mechanic and how these complex stat changes can be communicated to the player for informed decision making.

With your example, the unit would be at 26 strength before the weather hits.

Unit: 26

After weather the value is increased by 5 meaning it has 6 strength total. Then is doubled. Since horn is now a one time thing, the value of horn is essentially a one time buff of 6 strength.

I don't have enough experience with balance to make this call but there is two ways to handle this. Either the strength can return to 26 as before the weather, and the buffs after the weather will be removed and considered to be used as a defense to having your unit destroyed by wounding effects. Think of that like a cost of survival.

The other way is to take the added 5 strength and added 6 strength and add them to the 26 when the weather is removed. This could be too powerful, but I would argue that these buffs would have been played if there was no weather and the unit would actually be a lot stronger. This is the way I would like the game to handle this mechanic.

Clear skies would result in

Unit: 26 + 5 + 6 =

Unit: 37

Lastly, the best way to handle communicating all of this to new players may be a simple tutorial on how it works coupled with an idea that has been brought up on this forum. I'll paraphrase because I can't remember fully. If a player in game would hover over clear skies, the cards on the board would show the strength they would be if that card was played. The adjusted numbers could be slightly bigger or a different color to separate it from their current state to avoid confusion. This could be with any card. If you hovered over the potion that gave 10 strength to a unit and dragged it over a unit on the board, the units strength would change and show the result of the 10 strength being added. Simple example but it would benefit new players and even pros who want to spend more time on whether or not they should play a certain card and less time on doing math in their head or on paper.


I imagine this will get even more involved when or if you guys decide to add constant buffs. But regardless of how the mechanics work, if the game shows the outcome of a cord you are hovering over or a card that you drag over a unit then there shouldn't be any games lost to a surprise.

Thank you for replying to this thread and letting me contribute my thoughts.



Edit:
If the card is increased by 5 and 6 and then has been wounded by 5 then I'd like to see the strength after clear skies only go up by 6. That would be the fair way to do it, and I imagine that that might be a coding nightmare lol.

Edit 2
Saw your reply regarding the information be displayed when hovering over a card. Even with that not being possible at the moment, I think the above changes would be good. A temporary fix would be to allow more time for a turn, that way if calculations are needed then the player will have time to do them.

Don't you think that this is incredibly complex and highly difficult to predict and remember for the average player?

Imagine you have 5 units on your row and your opponents and you need to remember and account for everything that effected them both before and after weather.

 

[Nyanko73]

Weather becomes some sort of protection against wounding then, which is an interesting side effect. Cause if a player has both a weather card and clear weather in his hand and has a row with lots of wounded cards, he can play both in two turns and get back to a decent scoring.

---------- Updated at 12:58 PM ----------

How would you communicate this to the player taking into account any increases or decreases that have occurred in-between the weather being played and Clear Skies being played?

For example:

Unit A:
8 on the melee row.
The value is increased by 8.
The value is decreased by 10.
Frost is played setting its value to 1.
The value is increased by 5.
A horn is played doubling the value
Clear Skies is played

What value should the player expect at this time?

In order to plan the player generally needs to know what to expect when they will perform an action, with multiple units on a row being effected by multiple increases and decreases in different ways we found that users didn't know what to expect the outcome to be which was confusing and led to a frustrating experience.

We will be keeping a close eye on weather play as it is one of the aspects of the game we aren't the happiest with. We're reading forum feedback constantly and do consider things discussed here

I would have a follow up question about this actually. What made the studio change the rules of wounding from a row thing dependent on cards being actually present on the board to a one time wounding system? Was it because of the limitation of possibilities row damaging offered compared to wounding? I am curious to know. Thanks.