Ladder Rewards and Value for Money

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Ladder Rewards and Value for Money

So, I'm writing this topic right after opening a pack of 40 kegs. Before this point I though that maybe I was getting really unlucky, but having opened about 100 kegs in total by this point, I think I have a solid enough statistical base for the following complaint.

I don't have much time to play the game and grind out wins, so I decided to buy a lot of pack and it turned out to be an uter disappointment. After opening so many packs and dropping something around 80 bucks on the game, I expect to get myself a collection solid enough to complete 2 or even 3 decks. This assumption was based on my experience with other card games - mostly Hearthstone and Duelyst. In Gwent I can't even complete one deck.

In my honest opinion, this is ridiculous. The value for money is so low, I wonder why did I even bother buying the last bunch of kegs - previous 15 barrel purchuases gave me almost nothing. Maybe I was hoping that it was just my bad luck. However, now that I've analysed my expirience, I can name a few factors which contributed to it being so poor.

Firstly, low disenchant rate. You get so little scraps for each card, it feels like you've just got nothing when you recieve a duplicate in a pack. It's especially frustrating with duplicate legendaries and epics - you can't even craft a rare by DEing an epic, and a legendary gets demoted to a single epic (which is more or less fine, but with all the issues combined still leaves a sour taste in the mouth).

Secondly - misdistributed rarities. If I counted correctly, the game has 51 Legendary cards. With the total cardpool of 252 cards it's outlandish to have SO many legendaries. Fifth of the overall cardpool are legendaires. The issue is compounded by the fact that legendaries are agonizigly difficult to craft - you need 16 epics, 80 rares or 160 (sic!) commons to craft one. With the current droprate each pack nets you about 40 scraps on average if you DE everything inside. That means 20 packs to craft a legendary you want. And any decks absolutely, 100% needs those legendaries, without them it is not going to work. With the way Gwent is set up, there is no ability to build a budget deck. In Hearthstone or Duelyst (especially Duelyst) you can sort of compensate the lack of legendaries with good curve or specific strats which do not require legendaries. In Gwent a deck without legendaries is trash and is going to be crushed by a deck with legendaries on a similar skill level. Considering all of that, it is hard to see the current number of legendaries as anything but a greedy move by CPR which is really uncharacteristic of them.

Finally I wanted to note another thing unrelated to the keg opening - Level up rewards. The issue complements the same problem, I discussed above. I got First Light for level 12. How am I supposed to feel about that? Because I feel the game disrespects me, giving me a common card that I had IN EVERY FREAKING STARTER DECK. Considering that it takes quite a bit of time to level up, getting 5 scraps for it just made me super salty.

All in all, I feel that the current business model is abusive and just in general disappointing and unpleasant to use. Having paid about 40 bucks to not get enough scraps for a deck is an awful expirience, not to mention I got to open zero interesting or exciting cards thanks to the droprate giving me commons and rares which I all have, since they are very easy to get.

I sincerely hope, CPR rewises their pricing and rarity distribution policies before launch. Currently it feels like every keg is worth 30 cents tops. I am not a marketing expert, but IMHO if people feel like they get consustently screwed after paying money, they will stop doing so and will discourage others from doing it.

Now, I understand that the game is pretty generous with packs and scraps if you play a lot. But my plight is a plight of a man who does not have a lot of time to grind. The issue I am complaining about here is that there is no good alternative to grinding out the cards you need. Currently packs offer horrendous value for the money spend and buying them makes you feel like you've been ripped off.

All of this issues combined I can't believe I'm playing a CPR game - and I hope that these are just beta problems which will be resolved by the time the game is released.
 
I agree that value for money is not as good as in Hearthstone. I spent a several hundreds of $ in Hearthstone (not proud), because real money was very valuable compared to in-game gold. In Gwent, a single $ will save you far less grinding time and you need quite a bit more. As a result I've not yet felt the desire to spend real $ on Gwent, even though I like the game a lot.
 
  • Gwent is different from Hearthstone (and other CCG's) that a deck requires less cards to play (25 vs 40). If you would gain cards at the same rate as Hearthstone, you would effectively be getting 1.6 times more.
  • Most rewards from levels are pretty meh, but do you get Ciri (Epic) and Decoy (Legendary) at lvl 20, which is nice.
  • Grinding in Gwent is actually more forgiving that in other CCG's I have played. Completing 2 daily tiers, gives you 3 kegs a day. Other CCG only gives you 1-2 for the same time spent.
  • Spending real money might have less of an affect, but that also means less pay2win.
  • "Gwent a deck without legendaries is trash" also applies to other CCG's to some extend. Though an important difference is that Gwent has a smaller card pool, which means you draw legendaries more often, making it a bit more difficult to play against it. But even then a budget deck is still viable, if you pick a faction/tactic that relies less on expensive cards (like Monster Weather).
  • Legendaries having a greater impact can also work to your advantage. Getting 1-3 legendaries in a deck is more than enough to win games regularly. In other CCG's 3 legendaries might not make much of a difference, if you can't draw them.
  • If you play Gwent an hour a day, you will get most of the common and rare cards from all factions after a month. With the extra scraps you can focus on crafting a few epics or legendaries.
The game might need some tweaks here and there, but overall it ain't that bad.
 
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1. The card pool is still too small to allow for better card drop rates.

2. Everyone is in your same boat since it isn't like they are getting all of the legendaries handed to them either. If you lose to someone with legendaries it is because they have worked hard on making that one deck good, or spent an absurd amount of money to get them.

It's still in beta, watch the drop rates magically improve in 6 months when there are double the amount of cards in the game. CDPR wont say anything about it because there would be an uproar from the people who felt they got cheated by buying kegs with the old drop rates. 250 cards is a very small amount, and people would lose interest if they could collect all of them in a month.

That fact that you bought the kegs doesn't mean anything; they work exactly the same as the kegs you earned. $70 gets you 60 kegs, which is equivalent to you playing for the 2 easy to achieve win rewards each day for an entire month. It's totally fine if people with busy lives need to do this, but I don't think they should gain any advantage because they paid for the kegs (obvious pay to win problem).

As a synopsis I'd really just point to that everyone is in the same boat when earning cards with poor drop rates, which makes the system fair. If you want to win more focus on one faction and their legendaries, not owning every card in the game.
 
4RM3D;n7366790 said:
  • Gwent is different from Hearthstone (and other CCG's) that a deck requires less cards to play (25 vs 40). If you would gain cards at the same rate as Hearthstone, you would effectively be getting 1.6 times more.
  • Most rewards from levels are pretty meh, but do you get Ciri (Epic) and Decoy (Legendary) at lvl 20, which is nice.
  • Grinding in Gwent is actually more forgiving that in other CCG's I have played. Completing 2 daily tiers, gives you 3 kegs a day. Other CCG only gives you 1-2 for the same time spent.
  • Spending real money might have less of an affect, but that also means less pay2win.
  • "Gwent a deck without legendaries is trash" also applies to other CCG's to some extend. Though an important difference is that Gwent has a smaller card pool, which means you draw legendaries more often, making it a bit more difficult to play against it. But even then a budget deck is still viable, if you pick a faction/tactic that relies less on expensive cards (like Monster Weather).
  • Legendaries having a greater impact can also work to your advantage. Getting 1-3 legendaries in a deck is more than enough to win games regularly. In other CCG's 3 legendaries might not make much of a difference, if you can't draw them.
  • If you play Gwent an hour a day, you will get most of the common and rare cards from all factions after a month. With the extra scraps you can focus on crafting a few epics or legendaries.
The game might need some tweaks here and there, but overall it ain't that bad.

I don't think you get my point. I would actually argue that the f2p part of the game is very nice. The real issue, I am so upset with, is the fact that buying kegs for real money is an awful experience. I want to be able to pay some money (keep in mind I have already spent more than I would have on a full-on AAA title) and get the cards this way. Currently it just doesn't seem to work. I do have commons and rares, but I can't build the decks I want with them, so I go and buy some kegs. And what do I get? Barely enough scraps for 1 legendary and another semi-random one from 40 damn kegs. My point is - the pay to play aspect of the game is currently broken and if it's not fixed by release... Well, I'm going to be very disappointed.

Also, I am a veteran and I can win even with trash from time to time, I am not complaining about that. Again, buying kegs feels like throwing money down the garbage chute - all that means is paying money for the game is less pleasant than not doing so. Also card games can't be pay to win unless you have premium cards. As long as everyone has access to the same card pool, it's fair. Paying should accelerate your progress, and it barely does with Gwent.
 
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ThuleD;n7367320 said:
Paying should accelerate your progress, and it barely does with Gwent.

But how would you envision this, exactly? The devs could increase the drop rate for legendaries, but that would also mean you get more drops from free kegs. Relatively speaking you would have the same amount of incentive to buy cards, in the end. The devs could increase the drop rate only for kegs bought with money. However that would turn the game into pay2win.

Having played many CCG's, Gwent is actually the one where I have the most cards collected (while spending the same amount of time/money). This is mostly due to the fact the deck is smaller than average and thus requiring less cards. I am only missing some epics and most legendaries. Of those missing cards, there are only a few I actually want to use.

 
ThuleD;n7367320 said:
I don't think you get my point. I would actually argue that the f2p part of the game is very nice. The real issue, I am so upset with, is the fact that buying kegs for real money is an awful experience. I want to be able to pay some money (keep in mind I have already spent more than I would have on a full-on AAA title) and get the cards this way. Currently it just doesn't seem to work. I do have commons and rares, but I can't build the decks I want with them, so I go and buy some kegs. And what do I get? Barely enough scraps for 1 legendary and another semi-random one from 40 damn kegs. My point is - the pay to play aspect of the game is currently broken and if it's not fixed by release... Well, I'm going to be very disappointed.

Also, I am a veteran and I can win even with trash from time to time, I am not complaining about that. Again, buying kegs feels like throwing money down the garbage chute - all that means is paying money for the game is less pleasant than not doing so. Also card games can't be pay to win unless you have premium cards. As long as everyone has access to the same card pool, it's fair. Paying should accelerate your progress, and it barely does with Gwent.

You seem to be arguing both sides of the same arguement. you like the f2p aspect, but you want a better guarantee on what you get when you spend real money anything they do to that end is going to hurt the f2p aspect and shift it more towards pay2win.

yes, it can be frustrating, but its fair.
 
I would not spend real money on a game that is in beta. The devs have not fully tested everything they plan to and have not fixed everything either. Once the game comes out, then that is another story. You are trying the game out, beta is fine for that. The wrinkles with the game shouldn't be taken as personal affronts because obviously they haven't been fixed yet. The daily kegs one gets should be enough. Sure, it's hard for new players. But everyone went through it, so there needs to be a little bit of a grind at first. Nothing you can do about that. If you like the game, it won't be bad. If you don't like the grind, that's not a reason to spend real money while it's in beta just to try and get an advantage. Yeah they will give you the kegs back when the game launches, but then you might as well just pay for them when the game launches and everything is "fixed". By then you'll know if you really like the game and think it's worth it.

Otherwise there's no point in complaining for not being able to ride a broken bike at full speed.
 
Having obtained kegs both by purchasing and by "grinding" for ore, I can tell you that there is a very clear difference in the experience of opening those kegs.
When I'm opening a keg that I got using ore (given as a reward for playing), I'm pretty satisfied no matter what I find in the keg. It's just icing on the cake if there is an epic or legendary etc. So that's good.

When I open kegs that I got by purchasing them through the in game store (with real world moneys), I am somewhat disappointed if a keg only houses a rare and 4 commons (particularly if it's a duplicate rare). It's better, of course, when I see an epic or an additional rare/epic/leg in the first four but less so than the kegs opened via ore.

I'm pretty sure I know why I feel that way, having thought about it recently. The price per keg (in real money) is too high for the amount of cards in the keg. Or, the number of cards in each keg is too low for the money you spend. Either way you say it, same thing.
So, my instinct is to keep the pricing the same but increase the number of cards in the keg (say, 5 or 6 randoms instead of 4, total of 7 cards per keg). This would increase the scrap you get if you do end up milling a whole pack of dupes and would go a long way toward making the keg worth the current real money price.
However, that would mean that the number of cards for kegs bought with ore would go up too. Which would be problematic for the current economy in game (much easier for people to get all the legendary cards they want, etc)

I think the better solution is to lower the pricing (real world money) for kegs while keeping the same number and distribution of cards. Right now, each keg is $1.99 US with a slight discount when bought in quantity. I feel like the correct price would be somewhere between $0.99 and $1.25 per keg. Probably more on the $1.25 side so that you can keep the quantity discount set up.

Anyway, that's my contribution. Hope somebody finds it worthwhile.
 
See above. Besides it's virtual goods which means technically you're hiring them and don't really own anything. There is no value for money.
 
bburnham37 gets me, that's exactly what the problem is.

Honestly my favorite model for card games is LCG - when you get to pay a fixed price for each card set and get it all in one neat package. But that seems kinda unlikely to happen with Gwent.

So instead I would love to see a system with keg packs containing guaranteed copies of certain legendary cards, as well as some kegs, or maybe premium kegs for like 10 bucks which are guaranteed to have a legendary.

I get why the drop rate on kegs is what it is - CDPR need to keep the f2p crowd interested for a significant span of time to keep the playerbase alive. However the existing droprates are pretty awful for the "whales", whom I would expect to get disappointed pretty quickly. That why it's bad from the business standpoint. From the player standpoint, it just harms my experience. So I think creating some deals for the people who are actually paying is a good idea from both points of view.
 
idomyownstunts;n7368000 said:
See above. Besides it's virtual goods which means technically you're hiring them and don't really own anything. There is no value for money.

If you follow that line of reasoning you get chinese mobile f2p models. If you want that for Gwent...

BenDav;n7367870 said:
Otherwise there's no point in complaining for not being able to ride a broken bike at full speed.

Aren't we all here to ensure that the bike's not broken for the rest of the world? I did not create this thread just to complain (though I admit, I do feel a bit salty), I want the devs to know my point of view and see how many people agree with me.
 
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ThuleD;n7368040 said:
If you follow that line of reasoning you get chinese mobile f2p models. If you want that for Gwent...

Merely stating a fact. I've brought kegs too but I know that there isn't much difference between that and pissing and spewing it all over a wall. If the game's gone I won't be taking them with me and I can't cash out.
 
ThuleD;n7368020 said:
So instead I would love to see a system with keg packs containing guaranteed copies of certain legendary cards, as well as some kegs, or maybe premium kegs for like 10 bucks which are guaranteed to have a legendary.

So, after all these discussions, it still comes down to pay2win after all.
 
ThuleD;n7368040 said:
Aren't we all here to ensure that the bike's not broken for the rest of the world? I did not create this thread just to complain (though I admit, I do feel a bit salty), I want the devs to know my point of view and see how many people agree with me.

Yes, but normal keg openings should show the same results as paid keg openings. At least I think that's what it is, unless it's different for paid kegs which would essentially make it a pay2win at that point. Don't need to buy kegs for the devs to see how the keg turnout is and whether there are issues with it. Unless I am wrong, but who knows. All I know is I wouldn't pay for in-game purchases unless the game is finished.
 
4RM3D;n7368080 said:
So, after all these discussions, it still comes down to pay2win after all.

Can you explain me how this is pay2win? The system I propose does not mean a paying player gets some "premium" cards anattainable to f2p players. It merely means that you can choose to pay for a lower ammount of higher quality cards, giving you more options as a consumer. Yes, that will mean that some players will buy a lot of cards from the get-go and stomp lower ranks of ladder. But ultimately that can happen in any case. And that will only be an issue for a week or so until they rank up and play with their equals.

Hearthstone has a system like this - you can get a starter pack with a guaranteed legendary and you can buy adventures which give you fixed rewards. Duelyst has a system like this - you can buy "division packs" which contain guaranteed legendaries and the last expansion follows the LCG model - you can get it all for a fixed price or buy it in boosters with no duplicates dropping from them. Will you call those games pay to win? I sure as hell won't. Damn, Duelyst has a budget deck which is Tier-1 competetive, and you can win with almost anything through pure skill. Gwent is also heavily skill-based, but with how the game is set up it is a torture playing a deck without cards like Decoy, Last Wish and lately Aeromancy+Aard. Hearthstone... well it's an awful game but you can experiment and budget decks can be fun.

Maybe introducing more powerful commons and rares is a solution, but that won't solve the core problem of value proposition.
 
BenDav;n7368130 said:
Yes, but normal keg openings should show the same results as paid keg openings. At least I think that's what it is, unless it's different for paid kegs which would essentially make it a pay2win at that point. Don't need to buy kegs for the devs to see how the keg turnout is and whether there are issues with it. Unless I am wrong, but who knows. All I know is I wouldn't pay for in-game purchases unless the game is finished.

Nah, nah, that's not what I mean. I'm just saying value for money per keg seems awful right now. And as a result the experience of buying kegs is awful. That is why I am speaking out in favor of special deals or cheaper kegs.

Also, I think it's alright to test the keg-buying since we most likely will see a reset anyway. I just hope that the business model is improved in the future.
 
ThuleD;n7368180 said:
Can you explain me how this is pay2win? [...] Hearthstone has a system like this [...]

Fair enough. I stopped playing Hearthstone before they introduced these starter packs. Anyhow, like I have explained in my original post, legendaries have more of an impact in Gwent because of the smaller deck. So if you can buy them, the impact would be greater; maybe too great. In hindsight I think this is actually the fatal flaw introduced in Gwent. In other CCG's when you get a legendary card you are happy, even though you need a lot more of them than in Gwent. But when you get a legendary in Gwent you aren't 'more' happy, even though it's kinda more of a special thing. Or too put it differently... If the deck size of Gwent would be twice as big, the devs could have given twice as many legendaries, making people twice as happy, because they get more value from their kegs, even though, relatively speaking, the total value is the same. To summarize: the devs could make a starters pack, but it should be limited somehow, e.g. one each week.

ThuleD;n7368180 said:
Gwent is also heavily skill-based, but with how the game is set up it is a torture playing a deck without cards like Decoy, Last Wish and lately Aeromancy+Aard. Hearthstone... well it's an awful game but you can experiment and budget decks can be fun.

On a side note:
  • You get Decoy for free at lvl20
  • The Last Wish is a nice card because most decks can use it. However it changes little in the way of tactics and as such the card isn't essential.
  • Aeromancy is also a card which can be used by a lot of decks. But you don't really need it for Aard. Skellige Storm (fog + rain) will suffice (as the budget option).

 
i did read all the response, but, correct me if i'm wrong, the original complain is about the game being not enough "pay to win" ?

i never buy any Keg (i never spend a dime on a free to play) i gladly buy gmae, but if i have the possibility of not paying, i will not pay. i started the beta 3 week after the start, i now have 198 card on the 250+ that are actually on the game.
i play the daily only. sometime 3, most of the time only 2, because i dont have more time.

the ratio is perfect for me, not to fast, so i want to play, not too low so i'm not discouraged.
 
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