Gwent And Its Current State

[Archpriest]

Gwent And Its Current State

Stopped playing about a week ago for several reasons, one of them is the current state of the game. It looks to me that, with every patch, the game is getting dumbed down more and more.

This has few layers to it:
-Constant cries for unnecessary nerfs is the first. I don't know why, pardom my French, "gid gud" isn't a proper answer to many of that? At what point player needs to stop mindlessly copying the decks from the net and start thinking? There were too many examples of "my deck doesn't work against this deck or/and I don't know how to counter this card so nerf it!" to ignore this.

-What's worse, the devs actually respond to that by axing everything without really fixing anything. Wrong "problems" have been addressed in the latest two patches: like nerfing QG when it's was absolutely obvious that Axeman was a bigger issue. And I'm not talking just about the card itself. Can anyone explain me, why Elven Mercenary had to be bound to one row? I mean, you already nerfed it by making the card relentless, why piling up? Btw, that nerf was "needed" only because First Light was introduced in the first place. Now, weather has been nerfed even more and First Light again remains untouched - that one row thing means nothing. One card caused quite a lot of stuff and yet, it wasn't addressed. Instead, some baffling changes to the factions were introduced.... So, again, wrong issues were addressed with the wrong approach.

-Decks lose their uniqueness. I don't think I need to expand on this one.

This is my personal view at the moment. You may or may not agree with it. I completely understand the devs' wish to bring as many players as they can. But is the current approach of doing so the right one?

Cheers

 

[LadyAly]

Fact = I see more different decks since the last patch ( and I do not mean NG decks )
But I agree with you on the ST/ Weather nerfs - it was the wrong way. But as you can read a lot of people still whining about.

 

[Archpriest]

Fact = I see more different decks since the last patch ( and I do not mean NG decks )

I genuinely want to ask where do you see more different decks? In casual? Probably. Ranked play though... And it's not just the number of played decks. It's the fact that those decks require very little imagination to play... At least, one can hope that positioning changes will improve the game.

But I agree with you on the ST/ Weather nerfs - it was the wrong way. But as you can read a lot of people still whining about.

Oh, yeah. How could I miss it

The devs though need a more thoughtful approach to the balancing. I love Gwent and I like CDPR and the way they treat their customers and community. But this is a MP game and they need to be very careful when applying changes.

 

[pl91]

i wish i could tell you to "git gud",but sadly i agree with some of the things you say so i wont.

the devs when it comes to nerfs,do seem to listen too much to the whining posts(pure speculation,we dont know the actual decision process for the nerfing though).the queensguard deck was completely fine and the nerf to it was uncalled for.so was the change to many of the ST cards,from being agile to being restricted to one lane.this killed their unique identity.

the way it goes,i see quick nerfs to borkh and yencon,and probably even more nerfs for the ST.When i said a while back that the ST will still bee the strongest and the most interesting of the factions no one believed me,but ST whine threads have begun rising again,no nerf will change the fact that they are the most interesting and versatile faction to play.

to say the truth i do see quite a lot of decks at my rank(rank 11),but that is the case since the nerf to PFI,so its been quite a while.i dont know the situation in higher ranks though.

lastly,to be fair to the developers,they have made some exceptional,in my opinion,changes to the game.the nerf to clear weather was pretty much needed(it was dumb that so easily a bronze could counter a gold card).the lock mechanic is one of my favourite ones so far,and the nilfgard faction seems to be quite balanced(may need a few changes here and there,but overall quite balanced).i just wish that all of their changes were like,lets say,the ciri nerf a couple of months back(that was pretty much on the spot),and absolutely not like the change,lets say, of the clear weather card to include an effect as powerful as rally.

anyway thats just my opinion,i really have trust in CDPR to fix the game as best as they can until the official release.one thing i would suggest to them is to close their ears to the whining threads,trust the data they gather daily,and change the game in the way THEY want,not the way whiners want.HAVE FAITH IN YOUR SKILLS GUYS!

PS:haters feel free to hate!

HenryGrosmont sorry for hijacking your thread mate,but i had to say some things,and didnt want to open another thread :/.

 

[Archpriest]

i wish i could tell you to "git gud",but sadly i agree with some of the things you say so i wont.

Sorry, I don't get this one. As you see, I am against unnecessary nerfs so, "git gud" doesn't apply in this case

to say the truth i do see quite a lot of decks at my rank(rank 11),but that is the case since the nerf to PFI,so its been quite a while.i dont know the situation in higher ranks though.

These days, I watch sometimes my wife playing, she's rank 9 and I mostly see 2 decks playing against her.

HenryGrosmont sorry for hijacking your thread mate,but i had to say some things,and didnt want to open another thread :/.

You did not hijack anything. In fact, I appreciate the effort. And this may draw devs' attention.

 

[IAxiiYourMother]

SC:
Though there is more diversity than Ciri: Dash SC garbage I agree that the buffs and nerfs are totally random. Someone high up loves that Rally effect otherwise there is no way it would have hung around for more than a day and caused all the problems with SC. Completely changing SC to keep that out of place Rally effect in the game is totally bizarre. The funny thing is I still run three Mercs and three FL in my Dwarf deck and still get crazy thinning. No reason to run BMC anyway unless you are buffing Ciran in your hand. I wonder what the point of Ethne will be as an SC leader in the future since she has the most resilient cards in her faction. She is still great with Dwarves/healers, but throw another resilient unit in there and you may as well give SC a one turn confetti button.

Monsters:
I do enjoy the monster consume changes. They are taking that faction in a good direction even if there are still some cool cards that aren't usable in serious decks (Harpies). I find myself returning to my consume decks over and over because they are fun to play even if I do not win as much as with other decks.

SK:
The new SK discard thing is funny because that was the problem they wanted to address with SC. The games vs them get stale because it is rare that they don't play the exact same cards with the consistency the deck provides, and empty the deck by round 2. I don't think the deck is really good, it's just boring to see so much of.

NR:
NR is just an odd faction at the moment... what do they do? They have some strong turn one musters, a great leader in Radovid, some medics mixed in there, and I think they are able to promote units... but I've never seen it. They are just a weird combination of the other factions atm.

NG:
Their best deck has nothing to do with the supposed faction flavor of spying, and revealing cards. Most of their wins are through discount Milva cheese that is only useful with the one leader that doesn't interact with revealing cards or spies.

 

[pl91]

You did not hijack anything. In fact, I appreciate the effort. And this may draw devs' attention.

lets hope it will draw at least SOME attention,and makes the developers share the thought process behind of at least the most important changes in each patch.i would appreciate something like that,and i think the entire community would also apreciate it.

 

[LadyAly]

I genuinely want to ask where do you see more different decks? In casual? Probably. Ranked play though... And it's not just the number of played decks. It's the fact that those decks require very little imagination to play... At least, one can hope that positioning changes will improve the game.
.

I play only rank - so there are really a lot of different decks. Since I try always something new I go down the ladder a lot of times - So I see decks in between a rather wide range. Its definitive not like before the patch if you did see ST or especially NR you did know exactly what happens. The most inflexible decks are now NG imo. Always Cow throwing and Cahir abuse if they have CA - so boring.

 

[Archpriest]

IAxiiYourMother
Excellent points, esp on Scoia. Don't forget that Aglais is still relentless...

As for Skellige playing its whole deck, hey they don't use First Light ;p

pl91

That would be most welcome. The dialog between the devs and the testers should be more open to get the best results. One example would be their suspicion and usage rate of the QG combo that was nerfed but then reversed back. Somehow, Ermion and Svanrige got buffed back in the process as well. I, as hell, have no idea what was the thought behind it.

LadyAly
And I bet if the change is coming, IF it's coming (and it should) it will do something as drastic as with Milva and the rest...

 

[4RM3D]

There are two things at play here.

1) The unfocused approach on nerfing/buffing
2) The fractured faction's identity (lack of purpose and variety)

First of all the devs are nerfing things that shouldn't be nerfed and at the same time buffing things that become too strong. I still get the feeling the devs are using us as guinea pigs just to see what happens if they turn a card up to eleven. What we need is a video series wherein the devs explain their current philosophy of the game, so we can understand what they are trying to achieve. (This might actually already exist and I haven't properly searched for it.)

The other issue is the fractured faction's identity with no clear goals as to what it's supposed to do. ST has been destroyed and NG is in a weird spot right now. Monsters are okay but limited to only a few choices. NR is going all over the place and SK getting a makeover after every patch. All this needs to be fixed (which is why we have beta). Even then there is another solution to all this. The devs have to introduce a new expansion ASAP, which should give every faction at least one more (new) archetype/play style.

 

[DMaster2]

The meta is fairly nice with a lot of decks (mmr 3000). Way better than what it was before the patch.

 

[isnadtochiev]

First of all, this:

-Constant cries for unnecessary nerfs is the first. I don't know why, pardom my French, "gid gud" isn't a proper answer to many of that? At what point player needs to stop mindlessly copying the decks from the net and start thinking? There were too many examples of "my deck doesn't work against this deck or/and I don't know how to counter this card so nerf it!" to ignore this.

is a reasonable question. And i do feel that game shall be balanced around players who actually do know what they are doing. But for that to have any chance of happening they need to provide a usable, constructive feedback.
Gentlemen, im sorry, but this thread so far is not constructive criticism, this is c**p.
It doesnt take much to say something is wrong, or poorly done. Explaining why something is wrong is allready harder. Elven Merc not being agile doesnt make sense? Why? Its a 4 power unit that pulls a random special. Its still in play, still viable. Its actually a good card. Its pretty much an auto-inculde card for any ST deck out there. Weather nerfs were crude, sure, but before calling devs out on how they did it - well, you have to come up with something better. (well, this particular one is bettter covered here: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/forum...r-rework/page3)

Though there is more diversity than Ciri: Dash SC garbage I agree that the buffs and nerfs are totally random. Someone high up loves that Rally effect otherwise there is no way it would have hung around for more than a day and caused all the problems with SC. Completely changing SC to keep that out of place Rally effect in the game is totally bizarre. The funny thing is I still run three Mercs and three FL in my Dwarf deck and still get crazy thinning. No reason to run BMC anyway unless you are buffing Ciran in your hand. I wonder what the point of Ethne will be as an SC leader in the future since she has the most resilient cards in her faction. She is still great with Dwarves/healers, but throw another resilient unit in there and you may as well give SC a one turn confetti button.

Allright, first light and rally. Correct me when i go wrong: 1st - current weather is so strong it needs a viable counter. 2 - a counter card needs to be viable outside of weather matchup to see play (see blizzard potion for more information on useless one). So we need a secodary effect on first light. If you believe it shouldnt be rally, than we need another viable option. Whats your suggestion?
Point on Eithne is.. she is good for now, but might become useless IF future cards inroduced are relentless? We cant really go that far into nostradamus playground. Other changes to ST mostly included removing agile tag. If you think its was a wrong decision, why? And if so, what would be a fair cost for that tag in your opinion and why?

I still get the feeling the devs are using us as guinea pigs just to see what happens if they turn a card up to eleven.

Well, its CBT, so yeah, thats pretty much what we are.

What we need is a video series wherein the devs explain their current philosophy of the game, so we can understand what they are trying to achieve.

That would sure be welcome. To make something clear, i dont "oppose" any of you guys. Im just suggesting we go from "I dont like it" approach to a more constuctive one. A structured feedback: Trouble-> Reasoning-> Discussion -> Proposal. Devs surely go their own way about changing stuff in game, but if we cant really agree on something after a factual-based discussion, how can we expect them to "listen"? Since you guys invest your time here as well, i can assume thats something we all want.

 

[Archpriest]

First of all, this: is a reasonable question. And i do feel that game shall be balanced around players who actually do know what they are doing. But for that to have any chance of happening they need to provide a usable, constructive feedback.

Which has been given on many occasions. Your point?

Gentlemen, im sorry, but this thread so far is not constructive criticism, this is c**p.

Speaking of constructive criticism, the above quote would be a good example in your eyes?

It doesnt take much to say something is wrong, or poorly done. Explaining why something is wrong is allready harder.

The whole forum is full of detailed feedback.

Elven Merc not being agile doesnt make sense? Why? Its a 4 power unit that pulls a random special. Its still in play, still viable. Its actually a good card. Its pretty much an auto-inculde card for any ST deck out there. Weather nerfs were crude, sure, but before calling devs out on how they did it - well, you have to come up with something better. (well, this particular one is bettter covered here: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/forum...r-rework/page3)

It actually was never explained why it was done in the first place. Look into the root of the situation. The whole Scoia agile went down the drain. Keep in mind that scoia does not field the highest strength units and it also added a unique flair to the faction. I thought, and many proved my thoughts being correct, that was a common knowledge. Moving along...
As for weather, there were several interesting proposals. Nothing final but the seeds were there. Yet, as usual lately, the devs brought the axe...

Allright, first light and rally. Correct me when i go wrong: 1st - current weather is so strong it needs a viable counter. 2 - a counter card needs to be viable outside of weather matchup to see play (see blizzard potion for more information on useless one). So we need a secodary effect on first light. If you believe it shouldnt be rally, than we need another viable option. Whats your suggestion?

As of now, any suggestion that was posted on these forums in the thread dedicated to the problem seems better than the current one.
Look at it this way:
First light was introduced. the card became an auto-include in every deck, Scoia found a way to abuse it. The devs' response? Mercenary is Relelntless (fine) AND bound to one row (wtf?). No explanation was given.
Same happened to Weather cards - silver cards were reduced to First Light 1.5 but without the rally option.
In other words, two factions got screwed because of one card that makes very little sense. Instead of introducing a more elegant solution, like Mages who can tame the weather for example, the axe is here, people...
Bloody Baron - instead of reversing him back to gold, the card was completely reworked. Btw, turning demoted cards back to gold as it is the case with promoted cards would solve more problems. But hey... axe is better.
Can't help to bring it up again: can someone explain the Aelirenn nerf? Was there ever a problem to begin with?

the list goes on...

Point on Eithne is.. she is good for now, but might become useless IF future cards inroduced are relentless? We cant really go that far into nostradamus playground. Other changes to ST mostly included removing agile tag. If you think its was a wrong decision, why? And if so, what would be a fair cost for that tag in your opinion and why?

Eithne is useless to her own faction cards. If that doesn't look odd to you, I don't know what does...

Well, its CBT, so yeah, thats pretty much what we are.

one would assume that human beings are more intelligent than guinea pigs and provide more information.

That would sure be welcome. To make something clear, i dont "oppose" any of you guys. Im just suggesting we go from "I dont like it" approach to a more constuctive one. A structured feedback: Trouble-> Reasoning-> Discussion -> Proposal. Devs surely go their own way about changing stuff in game, but if we cant really agree on something after a factual-based discussion, how can we expect them to "listen"? Since you guys invest your time here as well, i can assume thats something we all want.

Do we really need to cite everything again and again? There are many threads dedicated to many issues. This one was created to underline the general approach.

 

[Lexandre]

funny enough elven mercenaries are still auto-include in any ST deck and not only because of first light, drawing and playing a spell while leaving 4 strength body on the field is worth a lot and while many people were and still are skeptical about numerous ST nerfs unsurprisingly ST are still doing fine and rocking, huh

a lot of nerfs were important for game's functionality because cards were simply too broken to be left alone and as an example its actually more fun to play now knowing that you cant get cheesed by commander's horn after being ahead the whole match just because you dont happen to have any card that can counter it in the last round

the only recent nerf that wasnt quite logical and was evidently blown out of proportion was the previous patch's queensguard deck nerf

but CDPR corrected that fairly quickly with some hefty buffs for discard/graveyard mechanics, probably even before disappointed queensguard fans were able to mill their Cerys

 

[isnadtochiev]

As of now, any suggestion that was posted on these forums in the thread dedicated to the problem seems better than the current one.

Well, perhaps you could provide a links to threads that have viable suggestions? Then we can discuss each particular one in a structured manner in their respective threads. I only found one that i percieve as such, thus i link it every time i can to keep a dicussing on the weather matter in 1 topic. Thats basicly what i suggested you to do as well. It makes it much easier to keep dicussion on 1 topic, as well as easier for devs to keep track of community feedback, if they decide to do so.

 

[IAxiiYourMother]

Allright, first light and rally. Correct me when i go wrong: 1st - current weather is so strong it needs a viable counter. 2 - a counter card needs to be viable outside of weather matchup to see play (see blizzard potion for more information on useless one). So we need a secodary effect on first light. If you believe it shouldnt be rally, than we need another viable option. Whats your suggestion? Point on Eithne is.. she is good for now, but might become useless IF future cards inroduced are relentless? We cant really go that far into nostradamus playground. Other changes to ST mostly included removing agile tag. If you think its was a wrong decision, why? And if so, what would be a fair cost for that tag in your opinion and why?

1. There are lots of threads on suggested alternates to first light, feel free to search it on the forum, I've discussed suggestions in depth elsewhere and I don't feel like thread jacking here. Rally is just an awful choice for the game as it is too hard to balance. A more passive benefit to the card would be better.

2. Having a leader that bounces cards that can't bounce cards from her faction just doesn't make sense. Pulling an extra special isn't game breaking... unless it's FL in its current state.

3. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I didn't say anything about agile units did I? All agile units is too strong, so I don't really care about this change as It was justified even if it cuts away one of SC's unique mechanics.

I'm finished discussing my specific opinions on this thread though as the focus is on how poor patches are not contributing to the current state of the game, and not on how to fix micro-changes in past patches. If you can't find suggested solutions with a forum search feel free to make threads focused on specific problems and I would be happy to give specific suggestions there.

 

[isnadtochiev]

1. There are lots of threads on suggested alternates to first light, feel free to search it on the forum, I've discussed suggestions in depth elsewhere and I don't feel like thread jacking here. Rally is just an awful choice for the game as it is too hard to balance. A more passive benefit to the card would be better

So we expect CD project to do it to "hear" our opinions, but were too good for it ourselves?(

 

[Archpriest]

funny enough elven mercenaries are still auto-include in any ST deck and not only because of first light, drawing and playing a spell while leaving 4 strength body on the field is worth a lot and while many people were and still are skeptical about numerous ST nerfs unsurprisingly ST are still doing fine and rocking, huh

It isn't an auto-include by any means. Besides, even if that is still true, it doesn't change the fact that the card was overnerfed and more importantly, which was the main point in this case, Scoia is being reduced to "just another" faction. It's like taking away the graveyard play from Skellige... or weather form monsters. Oh wait, they did that...

a lot of nerfs were important for game's functionality because cards were simply too broken to be left alone and as an example its actually more fun to play now knowing that you cant get cheesed by commander's horn after being ahead the whole match just because you dont happen to have any card that can counter it in the last round

True. Some of them are needed but not addressed for whatever reason.

the only recent nerf that wasnt quite logical and was evidently blown out of proportion was the previous patch's queensguard deck nerf but CDPR corrected that fairly quickly with some hefty buffs for discard/graveyard mechanics, probably even before disappointed queensguard fans were able to mill their Cerys

And yet, it took them twice as muc htime to fix the 'buffed from a bad breath" Axeman. They nerfed QG because they thought of doing so before the patch and because it had a high usage rate. I mean nothing from a gameplay standpoint indicated that they should have done that in the first place.
Also, what will be their response now when Skellige literally goes through the whole deck? You know, the same thing that made them nerf Scoia... I'll tell you what, they'll do nothing. Their inconsistency in dealing with issues is another problem.

Well, perhaps you could provide a links to threads that have viable suggestions? Then we can discuss each particular one in a structured manner in their respective threads. I only found one that i percieve as such, thus i link it every time i can to keep a dicussing on the weather matter in 1 topic. Thats basicly what i suggested you to do as well. It makes it much easier to keep dicussion on 1 topic, as well as easier for devs to keep track of community feedback, if they decide to do so.

I'll just quote myself here:

Do we really need to cite everything again and again? There are many threads dedicated to many issues. This one was created to underline the general approach.

Besides, in the rules it clearly states one suggestion per thread, meaning one topic. Which is exactly what I'm trying to do here.

 

[Archpriest]

So we expect CD project to do it to "hear" our opinions, but were too good for it ourselves?(

That is not what he said. I mean, if CDPR has time to answer in a thread like "when it comes to PS4" and such, surely they would take a look at the "Wheather solution" or "How to balance First light" threads. Don't you think?

 

[isnadtochiev]

That is not what he said. I mean, if CDPR has time to answer in a thread like "when it comes to PS4" and such, surely they would take a look at the "Wheather solution" or "How to balance First light" threads. Don't you think?

Id wish so surely, but lets be fair here, there is like, a million threads on each of those topics. So looking for suggestions that have any arguments or analysis behind them is... a challenging task. As i said, i do not seek an argument, merely trying to bring a structure to the mess that is balance dicussions. You know as well as i do that for every constructive thread or suggestion there is around 20 "Its OP nerf plox" threads. And they all named more or less the same.