New Patch; the Good, the Bad and the Ugly - a top 200 perspective

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SkippyHole;n8099990 said:
But things like this are exactly where the uniqueness of card games come from, if everything has the same effect then why bother having factions? Already with the changes to these cards, Kaedweni Sargent seems pretty broken for being another D-shackles for one faction only. So the effect on that is going to have to be changed. Dijkstra's already been changed. Boom, two unique mechanics gone to homogenize the game a bit more.

They didn't remove uniqueness, I don't think you understand why they changed all those Gold killers. I said it before and I'll say it again, they did it because if felt like you were getting punished for playing a Golden against NR/ST and that's not what they intended.
On a side note tho the most value they got was from killing Yencon and now she will be garbage so it's not like you hava a reason to complain about since there was not really another Gold that could be killed (other than with Radovid at least) that was that impactfull. And having Radovid nerfed was needed since otherwise 99% of all NR players were gonna be using the same leader, sadly they didn't anounce any changes to Dagon wich is more broken lmao.
 
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Rykov123;n8100020 said:
Resurrection removes the lock (confirmed by Rethaz on reddit a few times) so Mork isnt *totally* dead, just means you'd have to spend Sig/Renew to actually bring him back - Which is deserved, as he needed a counter and it doesn't make him a "play it and forget" card. Does it make him weaker than before? Absoloutely. Unplayable? Remains to be seen how the meta adapts - Either way something had to be done about Mork and this may or may not be the right answer. (Cleaver / Auckes having their strength values buffered up by +2 each is utterly stupid though and just makes already very powerful cards even stronger in the next patch, especially with the new lock changes on top.)

Defenders weren't the big problem for the ST deck either (imo) the BIG offender was always Hawker Healer being able to generate a utterly obscene amount of value - the fact its seen a HUGE nerf to its power and still remains one of the best bronzes at a 10 strength swing is telling. Personally i think the resialiance change is potentially a harmful move, as its severely weakening one of the most accesable early on f2p decks and forcing more of the other main cheap and viable deck, weather monster, at the lower ranks - which is already majority weather monster. (god knows how weather is still a flat "Set everything in the row to 1 instantly" effect after all these changes.)

Ok so, Mork/Olgierd are busted but Defenders are not although they keep ALL buffs unlike Mork/Olgeir? (other than base str and that is only a max of 6 with all Shieldsmith played and they also deal 2 damage to themselves every time they revive lul). Caretaker steals Olgeird and that's why it isn't played in every Discard deck out there too. And Mork/Olgierd are Silver while Defenders are Bronze.
Also Hawker Healer is broken yes but the one thing that makes it over the top is beeing able to carry that str through all rounds, I think you underestimate the power of Resilience but we will see once the next patch hits who was right :comeatmebro:
 
Shuls02;n8100190 said:
Ok so, Mork/Olgierd are busted but Defenders are not although they keep ALL buffs unlike Mork/Olgeir? (other than base str and that is only a max of 6 with all Shieldsmith played and they also deal 2 damage to themselves every time they revive lul). Caretaker steals Olgeird and that's why it isn't played in every Discard deck out there too. And Mork/Olgierd are Silver while Defenders are Bronze.
Also Hawker Healer is broken yes but the one thing that makes it over the top is beeing able to carry that str through all rounds, I think you underestimate the power of Resilience but we will see once the next patch hits who was right :comeatmebro:

Difference is defenders are removable. Their coming down as a 4 strength card (5 if they play Barclay.) You kill it - they dont come back. Defenders were also countered by D-Bomb, Igni, Scorch, Borkh, locks even Shackles if you really wanted. While Olgierd is countered by Caretaker (or just killing him in general for the round) Mork had NO counterplay at all with his lose 2 strength being balanced out by Skelliges passive + the fact it was pointless to keep killing him.

Honestly with the new changes to lock, I think it'd be fair if Mork got buffed up strength wise to balance out the fact he can now actually be countered.

The Silver/Bronze thing is a valid point and is a ground that seems to be getting more and more muddied by CDPR - Look at the new witchers. 16 strength, 3 silver slots vs Temerian Foot Soldiers, 12 strength, 3 bronze.
 
Rykov123;n8100310 said:
Difference is defenders are removable. Their coming down as a 4 strength card (5 if they play Barclay.) You kill it - they dont come back. Defenders were also countered by D-Bomb, Igni, Scorch, Borkh, locks even Shackles if you really wanted. While Olgierd is countered by Caretaker (or just killing him in general for the round) Mork had NO counterplay at all with his lose 2 strength being balanced out by Skelliges passive + the fact it was pointless to keep killing him.

Honestly with the new changes to lock, I think it'd be fair if Mork got buffed up strength wise to balance out the fact he can now actually be countered.

The Silver/Bronze thing is a valid point and is a ground that seems to be getting more and more muddied by CDPR - Look at the new witchers. 16 strength, 3 silver slots vs Temerian Foot Soldiers, 12 strength, 3 bronze.

Yeah, Witchers and Cornes should have stayed as they were I think. Also I feel weather is only getting stronger after the positioning patch :geraltsad:
 
Looking at it from being in the bottom 200, every deck I played that was stacking rows already tried to make commander's horn the last card, and I had to hold DB back because of it. The positioning mechanic and changes like making mahakam defenders resilience only last one extra round changes the timing and gives me more flexibility when deciding to lock down a resilient unit or DB a set of cards, but it also makes them much less powerful due to the positioning. This patch seems like a huge nerf to row buffs, debuffs, and stacking, and people exploiting row mechanics was the hardest thing to overcome with my NG deck and lack of experience.
 
LadyAly;n8098200 said:
Some of the upcoming changes are fine - but to take away the ability to hurt gold cards with other gold cards is pretty bad. It will change the game in the wrong direction - the meta decks will be looking probably all the same ( at least 4 - 5 game mechanics ). This is a decision I do not understand - the most complaints never were about this fact...

I happen to like the fact that you can no longer take out three or four of skellige's golds with one card, nothing worse than playing legolas or whoever it is then have them just take him out in third round, not fair.
 
Thanks to OP; I think most of it is a keen anticipation of what is likely coming.
I must admit that I would also like to get more info from the devs why they did particular things - would actually rather have liked the stream yesterday consisting out of the dev talking through the why's of everything than looking at them playing games - I can do that anytime on twitch and get more fun from it while learning something.
This patch feels like they throw up a lot into the air, make sure to kill the current OP decks (not a bad thing, but why do they always need to destroy them completely), but leave a lot of cards underpowered in relation to others, just adding to the pile of dead cards.
And while I get and support the notion of gold cards should feel like powerplays, I don't get why they would leave win conditions unaltered as this might very well lead to autoinclude countercards and less variety as a consequence. key choices were mentioned already and I really hate those cards that basically say "I win in three rounds no matter what".

On the other hand I personally like the idea of positioning and can't wait to see how it impacts the game, but wonder why the didn't include that into weather - e.g. making weather effects more local.
And I am hoping for a fresh experience, given that the current meta was getting stale quite a bit.

I also like that they didn't add new cards, hoping this is a sign, that they want to balance out the card pool we have instead of adding more balancing complexity through even more cards.

Personally I am curious how Monsters will evolve, consume is weakened much, but might still be viable in the shifted environment with a few tweaks. Weather is likely to come back again, but potentially in a different play experience (if just for the weather player...). FL fleeting is obviously making weather more viable again, maybe too much, could lead back to where we were, if I have more weather effects than you counters I win, but I hope that with the card changes it might actually not become so much a choice of the last card played. It will always be important, buffs not applying to full rows anymore and some more synergies to remove weathered cards, it might see a twist in the gameplay?


 
First I'll reply to some comments, then add some additional personal thoughts.


Shuls02;n8099770 said:
The biggest hit to ST was the Resilience balance change and it was more than needed, carrying a Bronze unit through all 3 rounds without having to use extra cards to keep it on board and keeping all the buffs form previous rounds was way too cheap tho I would have changed it so they got reset to base strength after the round ends but they remain on board for all 3 rounds.
And SK Discard got hit hard with Lock now staying on the graveyard (RIP Mork) and Birna/Donar nerfs, and also Vicovaro Medic is unchanged and with Caretaker out there (nice try Olgeird) I don't think we will see a Discard deck after the patch hits.

As others have pointed out, the resillience change was not the culprit. Hawker Healer and the obscene value it gave for a bronze card was the primary problem. Resillience itself was not the main problem, unless your deck did not incorporate any form of anti-buffing or scorching (i.e. Geralt Igni).

gigabomb;n8100770 said:
Looking at it from being in the bottom 200, every deck I played that was stacking rows already tried to make commander's horn the last card, and I had to hold DB back because of it. The positioning mechanic and changes like making mahakam defenders resilience only last one extra round changes the timing and gives me more flexibility when deciding to lock down a resilient unit or DB a set of cards, but it also makes them much less powerful due to the positioning. This patch seems like a huge nerf to row buffs, debuffs, and stacking, and people exploiting row mechanics was the hardest thing to overcome with my NG deck and lack of experience.

It would be helpful knowing which level and rank you are playing at. It sounds very much like low-budget if people withhold Commander's Horn as the last card. Anyway, if my assumption is correct, I think it is a symptom of the sad state of the game for new players. Due to the barebones starter decks, the new player experience is simple, binary (last card Commander's Horn vs. D-bomb/weather) rather than engaging and interactive.
I have been where you were - and I don't mean that in a bad way - and I do not think it is representative for "true Gwent." I don't disregard that it is the common experience of new players though, and I would implore CDPR to change that experience dramatically. But it is isolated from many balance related changes, which are and were not needed even at average level.

On a sidenote, starting out with a Nilfgaard deck is, in my opinion, not recommended. Being the newest faction, it only has one viable deck - which, ironically, ignores the two key trademarks of the faction, namely spying and revealing. The "Frankenstein deck" originally made by Mysling is the only viable Nilfgaard option by utilizing Card Advantage into Cahir Cheese and Rot Tosser + Weather/Myrgtebrakke/Arbalest/Cantarella. It is, ironically, is a deck that handles row-stacking very well due to having the option of safely including both D-bomb and Aeromancy, or even a standard Biting Frost. And it completely shuts down the Dwarves and Monsters meta decks due to Auckes/Sweers as well (Nekkers/Priestess of Freya/Hawker Healer or Elven Merc).... But only if you have the scraps for the essential cards.


roundert;n8101260 said:
I happen to like the fact that you can no longer take out three or four of skellige's golds with one card, nothing worse than playing legolas or whoever it is then have them just take him out in third round, not fair.

"Fair" is hardly a good argument when you can easily work around that. Look, Madman Lugos is - and rightfully should be - a gamble IF you don't play him while having massive Card Advantage (which is definitely manageable as Skellige). You can build a deck around him and make him viable, but if you don't, he should not be a default 19 strength powerplay instant win. He is currently used alongside Kambi - often the opponent cannot take out both. I simply don't think your argument has any salience.





Added thoughts after having digested the changes further:

Dimetirium Shackles having a locking function removes even more flavor and uniqueness from cards. We can expect to see at least 2 locks per match on key cards, though I suspect the count is more likely to rise to 4-5, depending on faction. Tournaments will be a mess as sideboards will be littered with locks.

Weather will most definitely become more prevalent. Since weather's binary effect (all or nothing) is unchanged, First Light is Fleeting, and "reset cards" such as Armorsmith is nerfed due to positioning changes, we can expect to see more weather. Furthermore, as I wrote in my OP, Card Advantage and Last Card will become all-important and almost always game-deciding.

The patch fails to address some archetypes remaining unviable. Nilfgaard Spies led by John Calveit will always face severe hard-counters as long as Kayran and Ekimmara sees play. Furthermore, D-shackles and D-bomb's newfound essentialism will make Ambassadors an even stronger liability.

The patch has outright killed some archetypes in spe. Skellige still hasn't got a viable "pirate/raiding"-themed deck. The old Wild Boar of the Sea - horribly clunky and unviable as it was - hinted at a potential archetype revolving around pirates. That has now been definitively buried due to becoming a golden Myrgtebrakke.

I suspect hero discrepancy might also have widened further. Ge'els is +2 to all units on the board. Henselt is essential +2 (and gold) on one row. Ge'els looks to be very competitive and flexible (which is good), but he also makes Henselt look really bad - unless somehow NR Ragh Nar Roog becomes a thing, or NR find a way to reliably swarm the board other than Margarita (who is within Alzur's Thunder range at 6 str., and with the prevalence of Locks she has just become even more unviable). As I wrote in OP, Foltest, Fransesca, Crach an Craite, Emhyr remain unadressed.

Nilfgaard reveal is a sword of Damocles. Too much reveal and it breaks with one of the core concepts of a CCG (in a bad way), namely the battle between two people amidst unknown variables. I think reveal, if limited, is a very interesting flavor, but I sincerely doubt it can and should become a viable archetype.

I like the Radovid change. The 8 damage was way too oppressive for a readily available hero power, and the new one definitely has utility as well, while requiring more thought.

Was LACERATE changed? If so, how? If not, then lacerate will be absolutely horribly powerful in the hands of any weather player.

Concluding Remarks
Overall, I must confess I have become even more pessimistic towards the patch these past days. I will be happy to test it and hopefully contribute to the game (if only by stresstesting the servers :)), but like many others, I feel the game is taking a turn for the worse towards homogenization. The oscillating stance on the meta - killing off archetypes completely after a period of success (see upcoming Discard Skellige - hell, Morkvarg can be stolen from Graveyard now) and buffing others immensely that were hitherto unused (I suspect Ge'els will become a powerhouse) - reminds me too much of Blizzard's schizophrenic approach to balance in Hearthstone (and all their other games). It reeks of money grabs so that people will spend time, effort and money on rebuilding new decks rather than creating a diverse, long-lasting environment with many different, viable and competitive deck types. I hope CDPR will refrain from "killing" successful archetypes outright, focusing instead of creating a foundation in which mechanics and metas can evolve organically and adjust itself - at least most of the time.


 

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Nimraphel;n8108460 said:
Tournaments will be a mess as sideboards will be littered with locks.
Sorry, what is a sideboard? You keep referring to some tournaments - where and how do they take place?

Great analysis, thanks.
 
IMO they should restrict gold slots to just 3, since they have made them so untouchable. Bump Silver slots to 7, I think that would create more diversity
 
xiong2mao;n8108600 said:
Sorry, what is a sideboard? You keep referring to some tournaments - where and how do they take place?

Great analysis, thanks.

For Tournaments, check Gwentify and Gwentdb regularly, they usually post tournaments and sign-up guides there. Discord is also a good source in the proper channels (Passiflora, SevenCatsBrawl, Gwentlemen's).

In tournaments, you post your decklist in advance (minimum 25 cards, just like in the game) - but you also post a sideboard consisting of 9 cards usually. You can rotate any of these cards into your deck prior to a match. Before a match, you are told which faction you will face. Therefore, let's say I am facing Scoia'tael, and I have Dimetirium Bomb, Aeromancy and Cleaver in my sideboard (all tech cards). I will rotate them into my deck because they all present good counters vs. Dwarves.

Sideboarding is an art in itself - and sometimes you can use it to your advantage if your deck deviates from the metagame, since opponents will sideboard wrong against you, believing you will run a different deck type than you do. Sideboarding correctly can make or break a match. Imagine a consume monster vs. Skellige - and the Consume player sideboarded in Succubus to steal Morkvarg. More often than not Succubus is a dead card, especially on ladder, but having it in sideboard can be game deciding if used wisely.

In sum, tournaments are - in my opinion - much more tactical... And in my personal opinion much more "pure Gwent" than the random ladder experience (although also hugely enjoyable) simply because they showcase the game's unique, strong points - mind games and finesse - so much better. They also bring "dead" and rarely used cards more into play (see above-stated Succubus example).
 
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Knightlon;n8110210 said:
The bad: Everyone has their own opinion before the patch was yet released.

The ugly: People not theorycrafting, discussing and having an opinion about proposed changes to the game while it is in closed beta.
 
Nimraphel;n8108460 said:
As others have pointed out, the resillience change was not the culprit. Hawker Healer and the obscene value it gave for a bronze card was the primary problem. Resillience itself was not the main problem, unless your deck did not incorporate any form of anti-buffing or scorching (i.e. Geralt Igni).

So let's see how this works: you play Hawker Healer and you have only 2 Defenders and a Mercenary so now you gain 11 str from a bronze card (wich is a bit too much) but thats not all because now the Defenders "carry" that str into the next round and the next turning 11 into 23 str.
I hope you see what I'm saying about Resilience beeing overlooked by some when it not only generates CA because you start with units on the board (like Mork or Olgierd) but it also comes with the bonus of keeping any buffs (making them better than those 2 silvers I mentioned).
And that's why I said earlier that to me the better nerf to Defenders was making them get their str reset to base after every round ends making them last for all 3 rounds but not carry over any previous buffs.
 
JoachimDeWett;n8097720 said:
Have we heard the rationale behind the nerf to gold removal units ? I'd like to hear why the devs did this. I personally do not understand it and I cannot endorse it.

any sk player can tell you very quickly why this makes sense. Currently before said patch, I cant put out lugos, he gets sniped immediately, same with kambi, being that two or three of the others are strictly discard golds, this only leaves a couple golds to play, which are niche plays. Very frustrating to have no golds worth playing, while other factions have excellent golds, many of which don't require turns and stand alone as good power swings right after they are played. if they didn't make it harder to target them, I would say just scrap them and give skellige new ones, I'm not happy with them anyway they are boring.
 
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