sund_F;n8203510 said:
you're comparing 2 cards from different factions in a vacuum. factions cards can be slightly more powerful relative to neutral cards simply because they are limited within a certain card pool and rely more heavily on faction synergy. Nilfgaard relies heavily on spy synergy and ambassador doesnt even see lots of play in Nilfgaard
Bronze was an average 8 strength (buffs included). Was it changed? Also, citing Igni as a trend is wrong as it is a single example.Sargarth;n8204360 said:
I'm not arguing that OP is completely right. But saying that he is completely wrong isn't right either.
HenryGrosmont;n8205040 said:
Right now buffing bronzes are 10 str. NG, ST and SK have a 4 str unit that buffs +3 to 2 units next to it, meaning 10 str. Average nonbuffing bronze is 8 str. Some buffing units are 9 str as they either: buff units of your choice (NR) or are weather immune (ST dwarf dude). And all of those unit spread buffs across the board and are not random. Ambassadors concentrate buffs on a single random unit and quite often it's not the unit you want, like of you have a unit with AR toggled, you want buffs on him, but you cant rely on ambassadors to get it, but you can use Standart Bearer for a weaker 4 str buff, but reliably.
Ambassadors almost dont see any play outside John Calveit decks just due to their randomness. Oh and btw, Thunderbolt and Manticore venom are 12 str bronze cards.
If I recall it right, CDPR has always stated that bronze on average equals 8, silver 10 and gold 12 (buffs and removals included). The changes they made might have thrown this notion out of the window...Sargarth;n8205340 said:
Also, many times Ambassador isn't a random buffer, esp in round 2.
I honestly have no idea what game are you playing because Ambassador was always played in NG decks. And if you insist on Calveit, then it's an, at least, 14 strength bronze card.Sargarth;n8205340 said:
Your Thunderbolt and Manticore Venom example is as wrong as that of Igni.
Again, I'm not arguing in favor or against OP. I do not think that Ambassador is overpowered. At least it wasn't before the patch. Now, we'll wait and see because positioning makes him much more than a simple "random" buffer.
it's not ambassador that over performs, it's manticore that under performs, some other under performing silver cards include jutta an dimun, sheldon skaggs, fringilla vigo.
Those are included in the starting decks, I assume.Ruthless95;n8206020 said:
My point wasn't to support op but to have an objective look.
HenryGrosmont;n8208690 said:
i know, i was talking to the topic poster. but jutta an dimun is a silver 10 strength with no ability for 200 scraps (which with skellige ability can get to 12), inferior islanders, even their cards are inferior and over priced.
Ruthless95;n8206020 said:
Rawls;n8210560 said:
Besides it is self-evident that there are some less fancy cards, including those and Geralt (12). You don't need to use them in advanced decks - and you probably won't - but those are decent for starter decks, without having enough cards for great synergy.
Poor Geralt. I'll say it again, I used him brfore the patch and he got me to 4400+ mmr. Do not assume things just because you don't use it.TV_JayArr;n8210730 said:
This is about right. Each faction has an option of a bland 8 Bronze, a 10 Silver, and then Geralt as the 12 Gold. Cards that then fall into each category have varying strength levels based on whether their effect is worth the rough amount of their color's average. The thing is that they all have a drawback of some kind, no matter how little. Ambassador's drawback is that while he offers a 10 strength power swing (only 2 more than average), he creates a 2 strength unit on your opponent's side that can then be manipulated by them, and requires a unit on your side to be played. If you draw him with an empty board, the bland 8 Bronze is 10 points more valuable than your -2 value Ambassador (hope that makes sense). That's the case for every card. The disputable part of every card is whether their effect is worthy of their statline; if an effect is far stronger than its card's strength would suggest, then that card's "overpowered". In this case though, it has a polarizing drawback, so I don't think it's really a problem at all.HenryGrosmont;n8205450 said:
Think of Xarthesius, he's an 11 strength Gold, the closest Gold power swing to Geralt, but he's 1 less because his effect is useless when your opponent's top cards don't matter (like the last round of a game, or if all three cards duplicates, e.t.c.).
Sorry for double post but kinda pertinent - all of these cards being cited, Manticore Venom, Thunderbolt, other faction's buffers... none of their individual stat lines bear any significance outside of balancing around that 8 strength mark. Manticore Venom can deal 12, but require units to be in a certain position for its full effect. Alzur's Thunder by comparison deals 7, almost half, but can be used reliably. Its opposite, Swallow Potion, which grants strength, is balanced the same as well.
Alzur's Thunder is designed so it can't eliminate an equal Bronze unit instantly because removal can't be valued higher than strength in a game like Gwent where both players need to be in the positive strength numbers for a game to resolve (I will say though that even though that was their original intention behind balancing Thunder as such, I think based on the cards that are out now, it may as well be 8, but that's besides the point). So Swallow is 8. It requires a unit to use on, but it can also be stacked on an existing unit rather than a new 8 unit, on both sides of the board for any variety of reasons.
I'm just talking about all these numbers for the sake of stating that there's no difference between "buffers", "vanilla cards" or cards with ongoing effects; Think about YenCon, even in her old state she required 7 hits (now 8) to match Geralt's value in sheer power. Her ability to go beyond that and open new possibilities for players to interact with is why she's not a 12 strength Gold to begin with - that's what card balancing is.
That's why I think at this point it's the utility cards that are seeing the most criticism, Locking, Weather, First Light, e.t.c. because the devs are reaching the point where numbers are easier to balance than broad concepts.
Alzur's Thunder is designed so it can't eliminate an equal Bronze unit instantly because removal can't be valued higher than strength in a game like Gwent where both players need to be in the positive strength numbers for a game to resolve (I will say though that even though that was their original intention behind balancing Thunder as such, I think based on the cards that are out now, it may as well be 8, but that's besides the point). So Swallow is 8. It requires a unit to use on, but it can also be stacked on an existing unit rather than a new 8 unit, on both sides of the board for any variety of reasons.
I'm just talking about all these numbers for the sake of stating that there's no difference between "buffers", "vanilla cards" or cards with ongoing effects; Think about YenCon, even in her old state she required 7 hits (now 8) to match Geralt's value in sheer power. Her ability to go beyond that and open new possibilities for players to interact with is why she's not a 12 strength Gold to begin with - that's what card balancing is.
That's why I think at this point it's the utility cards that are seeing the most criticism, Locking, Weather, First Light, e.t.c. because the devs are reaching the point where numbers are easier to balance than broad concepts.
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Honestly, I just don't see it as a problem. I think the more problematic Bronze card for NG right now is Emissary, due to the fact that it can fairly reliably chain off half your deck in a single play and subsequently cycle through every other bronze in your deck to reach the good cards. Ambassador is just a 10 strength swing, and even though cards like Igni, Weather or Dbomb are 'situational' and don't have any bearing on the card's standalone value, they all DO apply when we're talking about it being played as a card in a given meta. It's not any worse than it was before, but I don't see it being any better. I'd rather run x3 Impera Brigade and have 'em all go to 14-16 once I finish chaining Emissaries.HenryGrosmont;n8213730 said:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I just don't see it.
Positioning, Calveit, Treason, Nauzikaa... pic kanything you want.zantclick;n8214830 said:
Also, Ambassador with Emissary is practically what Elven Mercenary and BMC were before. With different benefits though.