Movement ST still bad and reaver hunters still OP

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StrykerxS77x;n8945660 said:
I thought I would love the trappers but they are countered far too often and you only get three of them. Skellige will usually just make them bears and say thanks.

skellige doesn't actually have that many counters to them, usually only the mage, and sometimes a single roar is run, often not even 1.

"only 3" is more than enough imo, that's like saying that rot tossers are weak because you only run 3 of them, and from my experience with NG, tossers get a lot less value compared to trappers, since opponent will just throw a single weak unit to them usually.

hitting just 3 targets, which isn't hard, already makes the trappers a 14str bronz, which is plenty enough, no need to go overboard with like 10 targets or something.
 
shroudb;n8945750 said:
skellige doesn't actually have that many counters to them, usually only the mage, and sometimes a single roar is run, often not even 1.

"only 3" is more than enough imo, that's like saying that rot tossers are weak because you only run 3 of them, and from my experience with NG, tossers get a lot less value compared to trappers, since opponent will just throw a single weak unit to them usually.

hitting just 3 targets, which isn't hard, already makes the trappers a 14str bronz, which is plenty enough, no need to go overboard with like 10 targets or something.

You also need two trappers in hand during the round. Which is not guaranteed and usually requires running Mulligan deck which is simply weak. Skellige is obviously the weakest against them as they do not have (as far as I know) cards with movement effect. But they still have lock (shackes or Domar), Gremist and they usually run at least one roar card to use on Priestess. So even they have more counters to trappers than ST deck could run them. And of course SK can replay most of their important units through resses anyway and as they aren't relying on boosts, they loose nothing. You can damage the row of QGs but they will still be back next round.

And yes, Trappers are harder to counter than Tossers but in the same time, Tossers could remove any unit if not countered. So it is a fair trade off. Also NG have ways to replay tossers while ST have precisely two ways to replay Trappers - Decoy (which is neutral card and accessible to everyone) and Milva which relies on them being most powerful card at your side of the board. But how often do you see Milva in game?

Trappers have the most value against Consume monster spam but Monsters also have plenty of ways to eat them.
 
Crueldwarf;n8946750 said:
You also need two trappers in hand during the round. Which is not guaranteed and usually requires running Mulligan deck which is simply weak. Skellige is obviously the weakest against them as they do not have (as far as I know) cards with movement effect. But they still have lock (shackes or Domar), Gremist and they usually run at least one roar card to use on Priestess. So even they have more counters to trappers than ST deck could run them. And of course SK can replay most of their important units through resses anyway and as they aren't relying on boosts, they loose nothing. You can damage the row of QGs but they will still be back next round.

And yes, Trappers are harder to counter than Tossers but in the same time, Tossers could remove any unit if not countered. So it is a fair trade off. Also NG have ways to replay tossers while ST have precisely two ways to replay Trappers - Decoy (which is neutral card and accessible to everyone) and Milva which relies on them being most powerful card at your side of the board. But how often do you see Milva in game?

Trappers have the most value against Consume monster spam but Monsters also have plenty of ways to eat them.

well... NG also have the same two ways to replay tossers, decoy, which is the same, and Emhyr instead of Milva (and Emhyr is the weakest NG leader atm)

what i want to actually point out, is that the very fact that people have to play around Trappers (and similary tossers) and the akwards plays to actually counter those units with (usually) subpar plays, is part of their strength.

Saying that "trappers are no good cause you only have 3" is basically wrong, every good bronze you can only run 3 off, that's not a weakness, that's the core design of the game.
 
Jotun35;n8944910 said:
Hunters are fine the way they are ATM.
Sure they can be removed by Triss and Thunder, but baiting these out before putting down reavers is NR 101.

If on top of that, if you play Operator and Dandelion in your decks, you're pretty much assured to have 3 solid Reavers on round 3 and you'll most likely be able to have 3 out of 4 on the board (not necessarily lined up on the same row to play around G:Igni, but that's ok), with Foltest.

That was the case before anyway for triss and thunder, the problem is that now they are too weak, susceptible to too many counters and attacks, demotes and locks won't even get the full potential that the reavers can achieve. The problem was that they were fine before but just people didn't know how to deal with them like the trio horsemen that MD has (which might aswell be nerfed since the trio is now far better than reavers). For any deck in the game you can have a good enough deck to counter them.
 
The problem with Reaver Hunters is the way Bond works. Triggering all the units bond ability each time one hits the board results in exponential increase in power which usually results in a ~40 pt swing. reducing the base str is marginal at best as RH's power was never there to begin with, and the adjustment to graveyard interaction is also insignificant as they rarely spend much time in the GY, usually being immediately reshuffled via Nenneke. What's worse is that on top of the snowbally effect they have via the Bond ability they have a pretty insane Trio ability as well.
What's interesting is that the Trio ability actually is the one that makes sense, crippling the biggest an enemy because they're big game hunters etc.
If Bond is reworked to function similar to the old Blue Stripes Commando text, Reaver Hunters will be easier to balance, will not have an insane swing but still will could be usable in certain decks/metas. Right now they're aut-oinclude in any non-machine NR deck, only because machines is super tight on bronzes.
 
shroudb;n8945750 said:
skellige doesn't actually have that many counters to them, usually only the mage, and sometimes a single roar is run, often not even 1.

"only 3" is more than enough imo, that's like saying that rot tossers are weak because you only run 3 of them, and from my experience with NG, tossers get a lot less value compared to trappers, since opponent will just throw a single weak unit to them usually.

hitting just 3 targets, which isn't hard, already makes the trappers a 14str bronz, which is plenty enough, no need to go overboard with like 10 targets or something.

Except NG has more ways to reuse rot tossers. I have seen them used 6-7 times in a single game. How is that possible with trappers? When I used trappers I not only had issues with getting countered but also matches where there weren't that many targets.
 
StrykerxS77x;n8950540 said:
Except NG has more ways to reuse rot tossers. I have seen them used 6-7 times in a single game. How is that possible with trappers? When I used trappers I not only had issues with getting countered but also matches where there weren't that many targets.

ST can also use trappers up to 8 times in a game. 3 base bronzes (3) + decoy (4) + Eithne decoy (5) + Milva and save it for later rounds where you can play (6) into Renew Milva (7) again. Then there's also Aglais (8) if your opponent played a decoy of his own. Now, is it worth dedicating that many cards to use it eight times is another question altogether.

Next up not really replying to you specifically, but generally since we're talking about Milva uses:
Milva can be used as a bouncer where she bounces the opponent's super boosted cards, you can use her to bounce back Ida for quick fog/quen then to have her for later use to clear weather or apply another fog, she's stellar with Braenn and she can be used on Wardancers + Vrihedd officers for some extra thinning (and you can do this two rounds with Renew - although not too sure if this is a worthwhile play most of the time), also trappers where you can bounce it back to keep for a later round or just play it right away. Imo, Milva is an underappreciated card within the ST player base. The reason it's hated is because in some situations it's impractical to use and that doesn't really befit a gold card where it's supposed to be this powerful play (and Milva absolutely can be that, but not always). Making Milva more practical imo would be to only affect the two rows (your's and your opponent's) she's put on.
 
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StrykerxS77x;n8950540 said:
Except NG has more ways to reuse rot tossers. I have seen them used 6-7 times in a single game. How is that possible with trappers? When I used trappers I not only had issues with getting countered but also matches where there weren't that many targets.

Ehmyr, cahir, decoy, 3 base. That's 6 times for tossers.
milva, decoy, eithne, 3 base. That's 6 times for trappers.

both use 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 leader, 3 bronzes.
 
shroudb;n8951140 said:
Ehmyr, cahir, decoy, 3 base. That's 6 times for tossers.
milva, decoy, eithne, 3 base. That's 6 times for trappers.

both use 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 leader, 3 bronzes.

Errr how about no? Millva returns the highest unit on your side of the board in your hand. Contrary to rot tosser that can be used on rows with only one or few units, you want to use trappers after you created a row with enough targets to be worth it, so at least a few turns of play. Also,n you need to wait for your opponent's highest unit to be a buffed unit that is no harm in being replayed. You don't want to bounce back a non buffed rot tosser, for example. At that time there is NO WAY that all your units are below 5 strength except the previously played trapper.
Except if the opponent is a nice guy that damaged everything except your trapper (how kind of him) you will NOT use your trapper again thanks to Milva. Milva will removed a buffed unit and make you play it again, removing the buff.
Even with the buff from the decoy, that's still only 8 strength. Any unit moved by dwarven mercenaries will be at least 8 or 9. Most silver dwarves as well.
Also Eithne in movement scoia? Really? If you're playing Eithne, you're playing with spells. If you're playing with spells, why are you using trappers instead of lacerate?
Decoy on a trapper is worse than running a lacerate to begin with. it doesn't give a body on the board, and you can have the trap killed before it goes off. For a silver, that's awful. Trappers are interesting because they're bronze just like lacerate.Your decoy here is a play worse than a bronze lacerate. Obviously running Eithne to replay that decoy is even more awful. I don't think I need to comment on the idea of putting Milva in there on top of this.

Also, you conveniently omitted Assire for NG.
 
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RH are fine the way they are now.Yes they got nerfed.But making them 4 power allows them to synergise with the 2nd and 3rd Kaedwani sergeants reaching 6 power.Using Operator with them as well.
 
shroudb;n8951140 said:
Ehmyr, cahir, decoy, 3 base. That's 6 times for tossers.
milva, decoy, eithne, 3 base. That's 6 times for trappers.

both use 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 leader, 3 bronzes.

Ah. Good points. I don't have Milva and considering the affect I was getting from the trappers I wouldn't have considered using the leader with decoy.
 
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