Morkvarg Value?

[UnknownEternity]

Really, stop using the faction ability in the calculation.
"Morkvarg" is obviously better against destruction, but he is far worse in keeping high value buffs intact; so he has no guaranteed Persistance because he cannot keep a single non-base buff. The game is about value not about pumping all removals on that one annoying card. You don't have to destroy "Morkvarg" because all high buffs applied to him vanish after he gets revived - you can just ignore and outpower him (similiar tactic as against for example high-strength gold cards).
The statement against "green" strength buffs in high tier skellige decks is just wrong (Axeman?, Commander's Horn?).


Again some calculations (without faction abilities (please...)) - played round 1/2/3:

"Mahakam Defender" (bronze) & 1x "Mahakam Guard" (which also has Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 31/22/13 over the rounds.
"Yarpen Zigrin" (silver) & 1x "Mahakam Guard" (which also has Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 26/26/16 over the rounds.
"Morkvarg" (silver) & 1x "Clan Tordarroch Shieldsmith" (no Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 27/22/14 over the rounds.

"Mahakam Defender" (bronze) & 2x "Mahakam Guard" (which also have Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 50/36/22 over the rounds.
"Yarpen Zigrin" (silver) & 2x "Mahakam Guard" (which also have Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 42/42/25 over the rounds.
"Morkvarg" (silver) & 2x "Clan Tordarroch Shieldsmith" (no Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 37/30/21 over the rounds.

...

If you consider the "Mahakam Guard" as +1 base power (then no Weather Immunity) or without considering the body of the buffing units (as in "Swallow Potion" against "Mardroeme" as buffing card) the difference is even higher.

 

[isnadtochiev]

Really, stop using the faction ability in the calculation.
If you consider the "Mahakam Guard" as +1 base power (then no Weather Immunity) or without considering the body of the buffing units (as in "Swallow Potion" against "Mardroeme" as buffing card) the difference is even higher.

As i said, card shall be balanced around top tier players and decks they use. You obviously have little to no idea what those decks are, and what they run. Or why they run that, for that matter. You wont see axemen above 3k MMR, its a scrub-stomping card. CH is not there either, not in SK deck. And yes, high level meta IS about removal and control.

 

[Ugralitan]

Again some calculations (without faction abilities (please...)) - played round 1/2/3:
"Mahakam Defender" (bronze) & 1x "Mahakam Guard" (which also has Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 31/22/13 over the rounds. "Yarpen Zigrin" (silver) & 1x "Mahakam Guard" (which also has Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 26/26/16 over the rounds. "Morkvarg" (silver) & 1x "Clan Tordarroch Shieldsmith" (no Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 27/22/14 over the rounds.
"Mahakam Defender" (bronze) & 2x "Mahakam Guard" (which also have Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 50/36/22 over the rounds. "Yarpen Zigrin" (silver) & 2x "Mahakam Guard" (which also have Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 42/42/25 over the rounds. "Morkvarg" (silver) & 2x "Clan Tordarroch Shieldsmith" (no Weather Immunity) together give a total strength value of 37/30/21 over the rounds.

You are combining cards in calculation. That does not give the "guaranteed value of a singular card" we are trying to discuss here. It gives the "situational value" What I was trying to say through whole thread is that Morkvarg provides a very high guaranteed value. I do not believe it is healthy to disregard the faction bonus which massively increases survivability of Morkvarg. If this was an Olgierd discussion, I would definitely disregard faction bonus, but this is a faction card and should be considered in conjunction with its faction bonus which directly halves its disadvantage between rounds.

Mahakam Defender: Provides 4 guaranteed initial value and 4 + 4 conditional value for other turns in raw form.

Yarpen Zigrin: Provides 7 guaranteed initial value and 7 conditional value for the next turn in raw form.

Morkvarg: Provides 7 guaranteed initial value and 6 + 5 guaranteed value for other turns in raw form. On top of that Morkvarg cannot be stolen from graveyard. He can be played by Discard and he cannot be locked.

It should not be very hard to deduce that no matter what happens Morkvarg will give you a good amount of guaranteed value on top of its other utilities.

 

[UnknownEternity]

Well, then we disagree about viable high level decks. But still you are indirectly proving my point, if you believe no high-level Skellige deck is able to use non-base/"green" strength buffs - they cannot reliably use these high value buffs and have to resort to base strength buffs.

Back to topic: So the value calculations are still far better for example for Scoia'tael. Somehow all the typical meta decks are able to win against "Morkvarg" and often they don't even have to remove him - I wonder why...

@Ugralitan:
I already answered that: "'Morkvarg' is obviously better against destruction, but he is far worse in keeping high value buffs intact." Again: His value is harder to remove, but has a much lower potential. Furthermore, if your opponent uses removal against you cards you also gained value - an example is "Alzur's Thunder" against "Yarpen Zigrin" (both players gained 7 value here or in other words: the cards neutralized each other).
Another example: When your opponent plays "Morkvarg" in the second round, you can play "Yarpen Zigrin" to neutralize the value - you effectively "removed" "Morkvarg" with that play (in this case even when calculating with the Skellige faction ability and ignoring other faction abilities).
In general, you partly seem to ignore what others write: If you consider the faction ability for "Morkvarg" you must also consider it for "Yarpen Zigrin" - just because the Skellige faction ability makes numbers higher does not mean it is automatically better then that of Scoia'tael. Hopefully last example: In your way of arguing every monster unit has Resilience - so they are all very overpowered, right?

 

[Ugralitan]

Another example: When your opponent plays "Morkvarg" in the second round, you can play "Yarpen Zigrin" to neutralize the value - you effectively "removed" "Morkvarg" with that play (in this case even when calculating with the Skellige faction ability and ignoring other faction abilities). In general, you partly seem to ignore what others write: If you consider the faction ability for "Morkvarg" you must also consider it for "Yarpen Zigrin" - just because the Skellige faction ability makes numbers higher does not mean it is automatically better then that of Scoia'tael. Hopefully last example: In your way of arguing every monster unit has Resilience - so they are all very overpowered, right?

No, I do not ignore what others write but you deliberately try to downplay reliable/guaranteed value you gain from Morkvarg. You can destroy Yarpen Zigrin, you can destroy Mahakam Defenders, you can circumvent Monster faction ability (even easier when they play low power units such as Foglets) but for Morkvarg, he will remain till the end of the game unless utterly destroyed.

Now perhaps I have not been unclear. This thread is not "I cannot deal with Morkvarg, nerf plz!" or "Let us discuss on how to deal with Morkvarg. Damage and weather? Cool!" thread. What I argue is that Morkvarg provides so much utility and guaranteed raw power to the table, it is a no-brainer to include in a discard deck. Even without discard, his guaranteed value surpasses the expected value of a silver card.

You are truly reaching for straws in defending Morkvarg an obviously overpowered card for what reason I cannot fathom. But I guess we have to agree to disagree.

 

[UnknownEternity]

Now you just ignored what I wrote. You don't argue anymore you just repeat your conclusion. I clearly showed you that "Morkvarg" simply does not always provide higher value - it is very situational.
But I probably should have stopped discussing after you wanted to ignore the interaction with other cards (Quote: "You are combining cards in calculation. That does not give the 'guaranteed value of a singular card' we are trying to discuss here. It gives the 'situational value'.") and then started to argue that "Morkvarg" is harder to remove from the board than a resilient unit - I wonder what removes units from the board...

So even if I repeat myself: Without any interference by other cards or faction abilities, "Morkvarg" provides a value of 15/12/7 and "Yarpen Zigrin" provides a value of 14/14/7 (over the rounds when played in the 1./2./3. round). I also showed some situational/interactive values - this is where you can argue and compare different situations (like "guaranteed value" in different cases) but it seems like there is no point because you just disregard it. The reason why I defend "Morkvarg" (and how I defend him) is in my posts.

We also disagree on who is "truly reaching for straws" and not substantiating their arguments. So I think that other people should continue the discussion.

 

[GW3NTLORD]

every skellige strategy works only for 1/2 days when it's new as once other players understand what's going on beating skellige is easy. I crafted Morkvarg & i am winning quite nicely but now I am loosing like hell. I dropped from 3700 to 2700 with Morkvarg due to many bad draws / connection problems & few miss plays :/

 

[Knightlon]

I agree with OP. It's not Morkvarg's ability that he suggests to change but the base strength. He is a silver card and he simply always brings at least 18 value, even without any other effort. Compare it to Manticore or Jutta an Dimun. The card's color should matter, not the rarity.

 

[Ugralitan]

So even if I repeat myself: Without any interference by other cards or faction abilities, "Morkvarg" provides a value of 15/12/7 and "Yarpen Zigrin" provides a value of 14/14/7 (over the rounds when played in the 1./2./3. round). I also showed some situational/interactive values - this is where you can argue and compare different situations (like "guaranteed value" in different cases) but it seems like there is no point because you just disregard it. The reason why I defend "Morkvarg" (and how I defend him) is in my posts.

Still you disregard all of the advantages Morkvarg brings and disregard that it is a faction-specific card while calculating. You are deliberately downplaying the obvious advantages of the card.

You say Morkvarg provides 15 value if played first round and compare it to Yarpen Zigrin saying it provides 14 value if played first round. The problem is there is no guarantee that Yarpen Zigrin will survive while it is guaranteed that Morkvarg will. You can deal with Yarpen Zigrin but Morkvarg will not budge. You can play Morkvarg by discarding, you cannot play Yarpen Zigrin by discarding. You are truly comparing apples to oranges.

Now when I said "You are combining cards in calculation." I meant that you are steering off towards tactics discussion rather then discussing the "guaranteed value" and "utilities" of Morkvarg.

A card which is pretty "plug and play" requires further adjustment to become balanced.

 

[Almaron22]

When playing against a deck with Morkvarg, I always try to win the first 2 rounds. That way he won't get the value from him coming back a second time. So Morkvarg does not always get the full value, of being replayed in all 3 rounds.

 

[Ugralitan]

When playing against a deck with Morkvarg, I always try to win the first 2 rounds. That way he won't get the value from him coming back a second time. So Morkvarg does not always get the full value, of being replayed in all 3 rounds.

The problem with Morkvarg is not simply its value but that he requires nothing to protect that value.

Other resilience tactics require additional cards or considerations while you can simply throw Morkvarg and be on your merry way.

Consider a card:

- You can spend no effort to play it due to its ability.
- It cannot be removed easily or locked.
- It will persist throughout the game most of the time.

An average silver card's full value is 10, we could consider Morkvarg as 11-12 due to legendary status. If it is played on turn 1, by next turn you get total of 13 value out of him if we add 1 base strength gain from the faction. He will always outperform itself. Such reliability without any drawback is the very definition of an imbalanced card.

 

[slow_cheeetah]

I totally agree with Ugralitan Morkvarg right now is 7 points (1st round) + 6 points (2nd) + 5 pts (3rd). That makes 18 points out of silver card when you play it 1st round.
I think that Morkvarg would be well-balanced if he had 6 pts + 5 pts +4 pts = 15 pts (it'd be still very good card)

 

[Esmer]

Zoltan Chivay is a gold card and provides 5 + 5 + 5 value over 3 rounds (15 total).

Yarpen Zigrin is a silver card and provides 7 + 7 value over 2 rounds (14 total).

Mahakam Defender is a bronze card and provides 4 + 4 + 4 value over 3 rounds (12 total).

Olgierd is a silver card and provides 6 + 4 + 2 value over 3 rounds (12 total).

Morkvarg is a silver card and provides 7 + 6 + 5 value over 3 rounds (18 total). Moreover, Bran's ability allows to always play Morkvarg round 1 for 6 + 5 + 4 value (15 total). And the only counter to Morkvarg atm is weather.

However, 2 str in Morkvarg's value come from SK ability, so in that regards Morkvarg is not much better than other cards with similar effect.

***

What makes Morkvarg so strong is his ability. Since no one plays Mardroeme now, it's pretty much impossible to remove Morkvarg from the board. Not only he keeps coming back for value, he also protects other units from Gigni and Scorch when you buff him.

Morkvarg is a power creep over Olgierd and having cards like that is always bad for a card game.

I am sure that the problem is Morkvarg's ability, not his stats. Either locking should prohibit him from coming back, or there should be some other way to make it die (actually, in Witcher 3 you could rid of him in two different ways).

 

[Knightlon]

What makes Morkvarg so strong is his ability. Since no one plays Mardroeme now, it's pretty much impossible to remove Morkvarg from the board. Not only he keeps coming back for value, he also protects other units from Gigni and Scorch when you buff him.

Morkvarg is a power creep over Olgierd and having cards like that is always bad for a card game.

I am sure that the problem is Morkvarg's ability, not his stats. Either locking should prohibit him from coming back, or there should be some other way to make it die (actually, in Witcher 3 you could rid of him in two different ways).

I agree. But I think that if the devs were to nerf him, it's better to nerf the strength and keep the ability (like they did to Yencon, Cerys...). It is a problem but only in combination with some basic strength. If he was 3 strength, no one would play him.
Also to the guys comparing him to Yarpen and saying that he is very similar: When you thunder Yarpen, the 7 value for next round is dead. However, if you thunder Morkvarg, he comes back at 5 right away and still grants you 4 for the next round...

 

[slow_cheeetah]

I agree. But I think that if the devs were to nerf him, it's better to nerf the strength and keep the ability (like they did to Yencon, Cerys...). It is a problem but only in combination with some basic strength. If he was 3 strength, no one would play him.
Also to the guys comparing him to Yarpen and saying that he is very similar: When you thunder Yarpen, the 7 value for next round is dead. However, if you thunder Morkvarg, he comes back at 5 right away and still grants you 4 for the next round...

I also think that nerfing strength would be better option, Morkvarg has a nice mechanic. Keep it. But with less strength to make it balanced.

 

[Esmer]

When you thunder Yarpen, the 7 value for next round is dead. However, if you thunder Morkvarg, he comes back at 5 right away and still grants you 4 for the next round...

And that is exactly why I think the issue is his ability, not strength.
Even not the ability itself, but the inability to counter it with existing cards. I think it would be ok if locked units stayed locked even in graveyard.

Even if Morkvarg's strength is nerfed, it is still a very strong card in combination with Shieldsmiths.

 

[Mombamambo]

Just change Morkvarg so it can't recieve basic strenght boosts, only green strenght, right now, this card has no counter whatsoever (I know there are banish cards, but they are unplayable) 18str + a body you can always buff through 3 turns would already be above value of the average silver card,it but it wouldn't be so insanely op as it is right now.

 

[eogard]

Maybe witcher need to interact with Cursed minion, like -x base strength for every witcher on the board or some neutral minions that can reduce base strength a bit

 

[Tamacountry13]

Just change Morkvarg so it can't recieve basic strenght boosts, only green strenght, right now, this card has no counter whatsoever (I know there are banish cards, but they are unplayable) 18str + a body you can always buff through 3 turns would already be above value of the average silver card,it but it wouldn't be so insanely op as it is right now.

Its honestly not a big deal, He always was this way pre patch yet no one complained about him then.
Mardrome isn't used much at all currently so he only gets buffed via the Shieldsmith anywhere between 0-4 times per match. Making him immune to base strength buffs doesn't make sense anyway

 

[Lexandre]

Morkvarg is annoying to deal with but its important to keep in mind that in round 2 his value is neglected since naturally vs SK you win round 1 and play your spies or just empty your hand from bad cards in round 2