Base Strength Remove Units - Is This The Time?

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Base Strength Remove Units - Is This The Time?

With all the buffs surviving weather and whatnot, is this the time to introduce the base strength removing units. Think about it.. no more "Nekkers are OP" or "Morkvarg is annoying" threads.
Will demand a better timing from both sides...

Your thoughts?
 
NG has a silver card that resets a unit to base strength and I can hardly imagine playing it over aeromancy or dbomb, that said I dont think it resets the base strength itself
 
Don't really get how this should work. I mean you remove base strength of a unit, would it then die, if the remaining strength would come from buffs? By the current logic is would, because you can't e.g. snipe a Nekker with Maerdrome afaik.
And even if so, this wouldn't help much with Nekkers. Even if you could still snipe a buffed nekker, you would just make the next one reappear, in most cases with the same buff. There's other ways that hurt consume monster much more.
And if the snipe-nekkers logic would apply, these units would in the case of bronze units only do very small dmg levels (~2) as base dmg would need to be rated higher than regular dmg, highest dmg removal of bronze cards is 3 atm - or their own power level would be rather small. And having this whole thing just for gold and silver would kinda ruin the idea.

If the devs think those cards are OP they should rather nerf the specific cards - not add counters to them. Would be as pointless as blizz potion - great counter against weather and dead against all others.

Personally I just think the game needs more tweaking, we will always have stronger and weaker decks and Gwent with just 5 factions and not the full card pool yet (?) is bound to see a more limited set of decks in competitive play esp. in a closed beta environment.
What is bothering me more is that the recent nerfs killed strong decks, but lead to a more narrow environment, not a wider one. Regardless of how OP weather and consume were/are, at least both could be played before the last patch, now just consume is tier 1 - and the introduced cards hardly get picked up as a deck theme.


 
I mean an archer or arbalester unit of 4 strength removing 3 base.
If you Maerdroeme a Nekker it doesn't trigger the chain, correct?
There are precedents of base buff units like Shieldsmith and, by remove, Nauzikaa Brigade.
You could solve a lot of problems. Indirectly as well...
 
HenryGrosmont;n8069760 said:
There are precedents of base buff units like Shieldsmith and, by remove, Nauzikaa Brigade.

Brigade doesn't actually remove base strength, it removes 5 'normal' strength. It gains 4 base strength if it kills a spying unit.

I would mind seeing a spores effect with a body, and tbh its probably already being considered by the devs (most likely)
 
Lim3zer0;n8069840 said:
Brigade doesn't actually remove base strength, it removes 5 'normal' strength. It gains 4 base strength if it kills a spying unit.
I would mind seeing a spores effect with a body, and tbh its probably already being considered by the devs (most likely)

Buff by remove... Nauzikaa removes a unit form the board, gets base buff.

My point is, if there are base buff units there should be base remove units - logically and, most importantly, game-wise.
 
HenryGrosmont;n8069760 said:
You could solve a lot of problems. Indirectly as well...

My question was genuine, I simply don't understand what you suggest in the way it impacts the game.
I don't know about Nekker/Maerdrome, have never encountered the situation, but assume that it doesn't kill the Nekker, because he still has buff strength left, which is enough to keep him on the board or am I mistaken?

If I am right - do you suggest that 0-base, but buffed units would leave the board?
And if so, could you elaborate which situations this would help with? On Nekkers it would only help if theres no nekker ready to replace the killed one. I mean it can help to bleed out the monster player, but feels like a solution designed for just this one deck type or not?
I guess Nekkers will get nerfed to 2 strength, and that might be a better balancing move.

On Morkvarg you would need a lot base dmg to kill him - and would just start one cycle for him. Otherwise it feels like the Poor Infantry Maerdrome back and forth, which wasn't a stellar moment of gameplay to me ;)

As a little pun, I like Morkvarg a lot, he is the preferred dish for my katakan!
 
No, to start the Nekker chain, you need to play one, duplicate it with Nekker Warrior ad so on... If you banish the first card (remove 3 base strength) it does not trigger the Nekker for Nekker sequence. You'll have to play another one to start it over. Right now, if you just kill it, it gets replaced by another one from the deck. And on higher levels, using cards like Maerdroeme is less than valuable.

About Morkvarg, you cannot Katakan him. Morkvarg never goes to the graveyard.
 
HenryGrosmont;n8068370 said:
With all the buffs surviving weather and whatnot, is this the time to introduce the base strength removing units. Think about it.. no more "Nekkers are OP" or "Morkvarg is annoying" threads.
Will demand a better timing from both sides...

Your thoughts?

Absolutely. Morkvarg especially and Queensguard also are a pain in the %$§ and there is basically no effective way to deal with them except haing more points on the board... I get that Skellige has problems with monster consume decks because they outpower them but most other decks just plain loose to skellige discard. NR Pavetta decks can deal with the monster consume decks but not with skellige discard. Currently the meta feels far too much like rock, scissors, paper. Of course this looks different for the top 1000 players but I guess the several 10k players that just see exactly the same Skellige, Monster and Nilfgard decks in ranked day-in-day-out would be very happy if this could be changed again.I think units that can remove base strenght would be very good to allow more variation in strategies.

Some ideas:
  • Mage units could remove base strenght instead of damaging a unit: Triss, Yen-Con, Síle de Tansarville ect.
  • Zero-base-strength when removed: A "banish" card that makes (all instances of) a unit on the battlefield be banished when moved to the graveyard (no immediate damage). Bronze for one unit, silver for all units on the field.
  • Of course a normal bronze unit with that ability should also be available. However base strenght removal should be "worth" more than a normal damaging. For example 4 strength + remove 2-3 base strength instead of the 4 damage one would expect. There should not be´too many of these units or skellige would be dead. I could imagine set of 3 neutral units with such an ablity.
  • Change mardroeme such that it allows to increase base strenght by 3 or decrease base strenght by 5 (still worse than thunder but more usefull than right now)
 
Okay, now I get it with the base dmg suggestion, I needed to re-read the banishing thing, not much of it happening in play at the moment. Would indeed kill nekker chains as much outright as that Nilfgard card that is removing all nekkers from the deck.
But then your suggestion sounds like a dedicated solution vs Nekkers and SK discard and would either kill those decks for good, if these cards are good enough to be included against other decks (i.e. only very little less power/dmg vs non-base-dmg archers) as well - or suffer the same fate as blizz potion.
I still prefer if CDPR would better balance nekkers and morkvarg/olgierd than adding a new range of cards to counter them.
Killing deck types doesn't make much sense to me, they need to be brought to the same power level as others to improve the meta - otherwise we will just end up playing mirrormatches with the last remaining powerdeck one day... Weather monsters is the prime example for this, now EVERY monster player plays consume, because theres not much alternatives...

And of course true with Morkvarg, it's actually Olgierd, that my Katakan eats! I always mix those two up and playing mostly Monsters I don't experience either of them to be so much of an issue, they are most times just making the playing field equal since it's not just me retaining units.

 
I'm with the OP. There needs to be a way to counter the increase in base strength. IMO I don't think there should be base strength at all, just have a strength amount - it can get buffed or negated as normal. If the game mechanic of base strength is to continue then it needs to be able to be countered effectively - Mardrome only reduces it by 3 which is ineffective against all the current buffing units that increase base strength and leave resilient units like Markvarg able to grow large over 3 rounds without any ability to counter it.
 
This suggestion is not aimed at Morkvarg or Nekkers directly but it can present counter options without nerfing. If you're not familiar with my stance on nerfing - I hate it! Practically never does it improve things. Introducing new ways to counter, for example, Morkvarg buff is much better because it doesn't come free, you need to adjust your deck too. Also, I'd hate to see Morkvarg reworked or even slightly tweakd. It's a great card, design-wise.
I hope I managed to explain my position on the matter.
 
Reducing base strength is fine and all. The true issue lies with the banish mechanic (as a result of units reaching 0 base strength). I made a thread about that, discussing the impact.
 
4RM3D;n8075030 said:
Reducing base strength is fine and all. The true issue lies with the banish mechanic (as a result of units reaching 0 base strength). I made a thread about that, discussing the impact.
Hijacking? :p

Now, seriously... I think my suggestion is different from yours. Banish mechanic is necessary in the game specifically because there are base buffs. It opens a whole new dimension...
 
HenryGrosmont;n8076690 said:
Now, seriously... I think my suggestion is different from yours. Banish mechanic is necessary in the game specifically because there are base buffs. It opens a whole new dimension...

I wasn't suggesting my thread is the same as yours, which was a discussion, not a suggestion. I just mentioned it because it's a consequence of your suggestion. The gravity of the situation lies with the banish mechanic. Though, you can still talk all you want about reducing base strength.

 
4RM3D;n8078390 said:
I wasn't suggesting my thread is the same as yours, which was a discussion, not a suggestion. I just mentioned it because it's a consequence of your suggestion. The gravity of the situation lies with the banish mechanic. Though, you can still talk all you want about reducing base strength.

And I answered that as long as there are base buffs, banishing is a great feature. I do not see any downside from banishing...
 
Hmm, I think it would be interesting.
But in comparison with the "Shieldsmith" and in consideration of the fact that base damage is (often) better than base buff (similar to: dealing damage > buffing units), an example unit should have 4 strength (5 would be very strong imho) and be able to remove 2 base strength. In any case: With higher base strength removal than 2 that unit would just be directly better than typical control units which deal 3 damage.
 
What about a silver neutral special card that reduces the base strength of all instances of one non-gold card in the opponent's deck to 1? So you could play it on a bronze to effect 3. Or on a silver to effect 1 card. Maybe call it "Compression" and have a stone encasing visual effect on the card
(as a reference to when this happened to Yen in the books and Triss in TW2)
. Edit: it would probably have to use the "then banish self" language like Aeromancy ... it might be OP in combo with Aglais.
 
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HenryGrosmont;n8072710 said:
f you're not familiar with my stance on nerfing - I hate it! Practically never does it improve things. Introducing new ways to counter, for example

if every time something is easily abused you decide to create a powerful counter instead of fixing the broken thing, you'll eventually end up with a game where everything is ridiculous and games are decided by who has the proper counter to the random opponent...

as for
HenryGrosmont;n8069980 said:
My point is, if there are base buff units there should be base remove units - logically and, most importantly, game-wise.

the problem is that (currently) all bronze units are faction specif, and i'm guessing they want to keep it that way... so would every faction get a set of bronze units that remove base strength? would the effect be on a neutral silver? if it's the latter, would it be worth using a silver slot for a card whose sole purpose is to counter one specific type of deck, and which you may end up never drawing in your opening hand?

i'm guessing that if there is to be a card which removes base strength, it will be a neutral spell... much like the one we already have. of course, that one currently isn't played for being too weak; and in the previous patch it was only played to counter PFIs anyway... (another deck which abused base strength buffs with resurrections...)

in conclusion: i think it's much better to just fix all the abuses with base buff+resurrection, lest we end up having the same problem every balance patch...

as i mentioned on another thread, a simple way to change morkvarg without screwing his ability would be to add the "when X set base strength to Y" (much like ocvist and kayran)
could be just "when removed from the battlefied, set base strength to X and resurrect"
 
Rawls;n8080220 said:
What about a silver neutral special card that reduces the base strength of all instances of one non-gold card in the opponent's deck to 1? So you could play it on a bronze to effect 3. Or on a silver to effect 1 card. Maybe call it "Compression" and have a stone encasing visual effect on the card

that would be unnecessarily punishing to every non-resurrection deck... if you're going to have such a card, it would have to be target specific. then you run into the question of "will it ever be worth the slot, since most units will not have a base strength higher than ~10, and if they do, they will most likely be golden (kayran)"

if we need a whole new card to counter morkvarg, that means there's a problem with morkvarg... (base buff + res decks in general)
 
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