Non-Randomized Expansions, Avoiding RNG, and learning from Hearthstone's Mistakes

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Non-Randomized Expansions, Avoiding RNG, and learning from Hearthstone's Mistakes

Short Version:

Consider making your expansions non-randomized as much as possible. Keep up the good work not falling prey to Hearthstone-style RNG.

I’m a currently shopping around for a new strategy game and I think that Gwent has potential to be it.
CDProjektRed can expect between $60 and $100 out of me each year—a fair price for video games in my view—if they learn from the two things that plagued Hearthstone:
  1. The high price of competitive decks, and
  2. A gameplay shift that moved into pure RNG
First, regarding the high price of competitive decks, what happened in Hearthstone was that after much grinding and money spent over a year (around $180 that I regret spending) I still was only able to put together a couple truly competitive-related decks (Oil Rogue, Handlock, and Aggro decks, to be specific, with a couple off-meta surprise decks). Then, Blizzard changed the text on key cards in these decks to make the archetypes impossible, and unleashed randomized expansions rapidly. I felt like I was back at square one, I could not keep up and realized that this pattern existed even prior to me starting to play Hearthstone.

By contrast, I liked Hearthstone’s Adventure-based expansions, because you knew exactly what cards you were getting, as opposed to their booster-pack-style expansions that relied on RNG to get the right cards. The downside of an Adventure-only approach is that after your second expansion, the apparent cost of entry to new Gwent players goes up because inevitably two-to-five key cards from each expansion remain essential years in the future. But this can be avoided, if every time you release an Adventure expansion, you incorporate the previous Adventure’s cards into the standard randomized set (keggable, craftable, and millable.)

Regarding RNG, I’m encouraged by what I’ve seen so far in Gwent. There are limits on how many Golds and Silvers you can have in a deck overall, which addresses both the high-price and RNG concerns. It’s a mechanic that encourages smaller decks. I like it. The ability to make progress towards a daily reward by winning just one round is great too.

The generous mulligan phase and lack of card draw removes much RNG from the system too, and I haven’t seen Gwent cards that turn the entire game into a coin flip like Hearthstone’s “Unstable Portal” or “Yogg-Saron”. It’s not satisfying for me to watch my opponent outplay me and then have me still get a victory I don’t feel I deserved just because I had RNG go my way. It’s even worse to lose to RNG. Some randomness is fun but I want it to come from my opponent being clever. I want the players to be the Wild Card.

The worst possible thing to do would be to rapidly release randomized expansions with many scarce, essential and “strictly better” cards, or to shake up the meta or by seasonally changing the text on cornerstone cards archetypes people will come up with. I’m actually afraid to spend money on any of these microtransaction-based card games after my experience with Hearthstone, but Gwent might get me to crack open my wallet and dig in!
 
Gwent should indeed not follow Hearthstones' bad example. And I am confident that CDPR will avoid such mistakes. However, one issue still remains which is difficult to solve. With every expansion, the game becomes more saturated. There is no way around it. But at the very least, the power creep should be minimized.
 
4RM3D;n8199680 said:
However, one issue still remains which is difficult to solve. With every expansion, the game becomes more saturated. There is no way around it. But at the very least, the power creep should be minimized.

MTG figured out that problem a long time ago by rotating sets in the official format... it's either that or follow the yugioh route with powercreep, which is in essence the same thing (only new stuff gets played)
 
I can't think of any way to avoid power creep, except for one thing. What if the game collection gets to a point where they say, "Okay, it's complete." *insert that meme where guy gets thrown out of office window*
 
I came here to say Avoiding RNG should be across the spectrum. Remove all 'random' effects from all cards. There's is no strategy or way to plan around this broken feature. You should NOT be killing your own units unaware that it could happen, it's just bad design and the opposite of strategy.
 
fodare;n8328520 said:
I came here to say Avoiding RNG should be across the spectrum. Remove all 'random' effects from all cards. There's is no strategy or way to plan around this broken feature. You should NOT be killing your own units unaware that it could happen, it's just bad design and the opposite of strategy.

What "random" effects do you mean?

Are we talking about Elven Mercs into Scorch? Or Priscilla into a Thunder or Manticore Venom when the enemy has no units? Because that would be a strategic misplay. Just like you don't Rally into an Ambassador for NG when you have no creatures on your side of the board. That's not "random". And you should be aware that it could happen, simply by reading the card description.
 
The problem with HS is that they apply RNG to absolutely everything. So far Gwent has avoided this with only a few cards having a truly random on-board effect, like the targets of Mangonels, Trebuchets, Nithral etc. But in their case it's justified considering the amount of damage they can dish out. It would be ridiculous to force the player into choosing each target.
 
It's still a card game and there is quite a lot of RNG and this can't really be avoided. Hell without any RNG it would basically come down to "the strongest deck wins", you can tell by turn 1 who's going to win.
I mean we still have similar situations in game right now and i'm not sure how it could be solved. As example i played a game against Dagon, round 3 starts and we both have 8 cards in hand, pretty balanced game but even though i held a Clear Skies we both knew that whoever starts the round loses the game, EIGHT TURNS AHEAD.
 
4RM3D;n8199680 said:
Gwent should indeed not follow Hearthstones' bad example. And I am confident that CDPR will avoid such mistakes. However, one issue still remains which is difficult to solve. With every expansion, the game becomes more saturated. There is no way around it. But at the very least, the power creep should be minimized.

The trick is always to optimize a fractions weakest spots. Not the main Features.
It is always the same fault. Devs come up with new Expansions with alot crap like Nekkers and Blue Stripe Commandos (Im not speakinf of the Card-Features, im speaking of fillstuff to dilute the Card-Pool) and then put a few Cards between wich supports common and most played Decktypes, so Peolpe will buy it. This is the fastest way to powercreep and furchter nessessary Nerfs.

The best way to always keep the Balance - Always focus on Cards and Technices wich are possible, but not used because they are too weak. Once a Fraction doesnt have blindspots anymore, you can start releasing new Fractions.
 
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Nomaly;n8196090 said:
Short Version:
Regarding RNG, I’m encouraged by what I’ve seen so far in Gwent. There are limits on how many Golds and Silvers you can have in a deck overall, which addresses both the high-price and RNG concerns. It’s a mechanic that encourages smaller decks. I like it. The ability to make progress towards a daily reward by winning just one round is great too.
True, gwents approach to rounds and draw is indeed very welocme. It is actually the best part of the game, also might be its biggest problem however. People like to win, and most dont care if it comes from an absolutely random effect, avoiding those essentially limit the audience. Big plus of Gwent in my book anyway.
Nomaly;n8196090 said:
The worst possible thing to do would be to rapidly release randomized expansions with many scarce, essential and “strictly better” cards, or to shake up the meta or by seasonally changing the text on cornerstone cards archetypes people will come up with. I’m actually afraid to spend money on any of these microtransaction-based card games after my experience with Hearthstone, but Gwent might get me to crack open my wallet and dig in!
This part however is... problematic. Lets take a look at this chap:

Hes 11 power leader ability, silver, weather immune.
And then we have this dude:

Hes a bronze, his ability reads: transforms into 11 power weather immune if you play wounding Skellige.
We are allready at the stage where new (or like in this case, "patched" old) cards are "strictly better", to a point where a bronze card outperforms decent silvers, and is clearly out of its bronze collegues league. And its not a singular card problem, thats a persistent trend. Powercreeps are allready here, and we havent even left CBT.
 
I was always confused why Eredin suck that much.
So far, he is the worst Hero in the Game.
You can Build whole Decks and Stradegys on every single Leader Card, but Eredin?
I think the Ability should be changed to "Play any Member of the Wild Hunt from you Deck, including Gold and Silver".
(Imerlith, Nithral, Caranthir and so on). You still need these Cards, wich means this wouldnt be OP in lower Rankings and would become more and more Handy the more Cards you have.
 
Faustus800;n8342970 said:
I was always confused why Eredin suck that much.
Not the point. 11 power WI used to be powefull. This statline was really good for silver card. Wich made him in-line with Dagon and his aeromancy at will ability. Sure, latter was more powerfull, but not allways reliable etc etc. Now we have that in a bronze slot.
 
Faustus800;n8337790 said:
The trick is always to optimize a fractions weakest spots. Not the main Features.
It is always the same fault. Devs come up with new Expansions with alot crap like Nekkers and Blue Stripe Commandos (Im not speakinf of the Card-Features, im speaking of fillstuff to dilute the Card-Pool) and then put a few Cards between wich supports common and most played Decktypes, so Peolpe will buy it. This is the fastest way to powercreep and furchter nessessary Nerfs.

The best way to always keep the Balance - Always focus on Cards and Technices wich are possible, but not used because they are too weak. Once a Fraction doesnt have blindspots anymore, you can start releasing new Fractions.

then every faction will be the exact same and people will complain about every faction being the same...

nhk3;n8332400 said:
The problem with HS is that they apply RNG to absolutely everything.

not really... the problem is that RNG effects vary from "lose the game" to "completely destroy your opponent"
 
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Eredin ability need to be changed either by adding more strength to it from 11 to 15 for example or by transforming it to a gold card so it wont be countered or change the ability all by itself.
 
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