Resilience is... a problem

[Tschjo]

Resilience is... a problem

Lets talk about resilience. First things first i think the idea of the ability is fine and there is nothing inherently wrong with having an ability like that. The problem that happens with it is when the turn order and buffing the unit come into play. The thing with resilince is that if you are on the play you are basically never allowed to pass first if your opponent has that ability in his deck. It doesnt really matter that you are 20-30 power ahead cause your opponent could just play 2 cards that add power to the resilience unit, match your power and then take that power on to the next round beeing 20+ points up already.

What happens then is that you are forced to add to a board if you are the player going first just because your opponent COULD have that effect. The problem here really is just the combination of beeing able to buff up a unit AND having resilience on it. The same thing is true for effects like morkvarg and nekker. Again im not saying these are bad but the combination is just insane... as long as you are on the play. Now sure go argue that you can fight these cards with scorch, blocks and reset effects but those have a higher playing cost and you are always forced to show them to your opponent before he (and you) passes. That also means that he could just answer them. The problem in this situation is that the player on the play gets punished no matter what even when playing correctly. If he passes the opponent just adds more resilience power to the board if he doesnt they are down a card even though they were up 20+ power points.

The feelsbad moment then ofc is when your opponent at the end of the game never had a resilience card and you lose cause of 1 or 2 power that you lost by having to play around it.
Whats the solution? Dont know. Something along the lines of adding reset to resilience adding cards and having resilience units beeing unbuffable could be the way to go. In its current state the ability is just way to brutal if you are on the play to justify its existence.

 

[shroudb]

for starters, 10 points ahead is not that great of a lead, it can easily be toppled with a single card and so you never want to pass with just 10 point lead either way.

edit: duh... just realized that you saying "20-30 points ahead" actually meant that, not that the score is "20-30"... easy mistake to make... if you're stupid like me^^

for a realistic conv ersation let's say that you are 20 points ahead and you are afraid that opponent will buff the resilient unit and pass you with that over 2 cards.

the correct play here is to "slow down the tempo"

this can be done usually with cards that either give you card advantage (spies) or with cards that carry over (harpies, your own resilient units, quen signs, shieldsmiths, etc)

even if you don't, and take the risk of opponent going 2 cards down to buff the resilient unit and pass you over, then on next round, you should always win over him with your own "2 cards down" combo, be it scorch+unit, shrroms, peter, raw stats/tempo plays, etc

thing is, in the end, all resilient units are very low tempo: dwarves are 5s, engineers are 2, rush is 0, etc Couple tht with the fact that the inherent gamble with buffing cards in general is high end removal like scorches, igni, btm, etc you basically gamble that you won't lose 2 cards to 1 card of your opponent, for a carryover giving you an extra card or two, which is resonable (imo)

 

[DanielSens]

I think Resilience is a good thing also I am not playing this cards with this ability. But I see your problem with passing and then the enemy changes everything with one or more cards including a resilience-effect.

What would be the problem in making the toggle-resilience to a Clash-ability? So there will be no new resilience-units after you have passed.

 

[Tschjo]

for a realistic conv ersation let's say that you are 20 points ahead and you are afraid that opponent will buff the resilient unit and pass you with that over 2 cards.

the correct play here is to "slow down the tempo"

this can be done usually with cards that either give you card advantage (spies) or with cards that carry over (harpies, your own resilient units, quen signs, shieldsmiths, etc)

And that slowing down is exactly the problem. Now you are spending cards on a round that you are already winning. Nilfgard has a unit that can just give resilience so you dont know it in advance, Scoiatel can play tutors for the resilience adding spell and monsters got that 6 power rider that they can just play one or two leaving you in this weird spot. At least with them you get to see it much like ciri and its not too bad letting them win the round to get rid of them.
My problem is specifically that you cannot target the resilience unit yet because it wasnt played yet and you are that far ahead. In dwarfs use leader (deploying saskia) and yarpen zigrin closing out that lead and second passing with yarpen zigrin on like 8-10 power. You end up loosing the round and its a huge feelsbad and can easily trigger a gameloss.

 

[Jackal00]

Resilience is completely unbalanced.

Scoiatel can end up with 2 units, both resilient, that have 15 or more power each. The next round is a lost cause. It's infuriating. Scorch is useless in that scenario because it's incredibly rare that 2 resilient cards will have the exact same power.

Monsters are the same problem. Able to consume and transfer a ridiculous amount of power into a single unit and make it resilient.

These are lost cause matches. There is absolutely no coming back. Serious re-balancing needs to be looked at. Northern Realms can't compete.

 

[Tschjo]

Resilience is completely unbalanced.

Scoiatel can end up with 2 units, both resilient, that have 15 or more power each. The next round is a lost cause. It's infuriating. Scorch is useless in that scenario because it's incredibly rare that 2 resilient cards will have the exact same power.

Monsters are the same problem. Able to consume and transfer a ridiculous amount of power into a single unit and make it resilient.

These are lost cause matches. There is absolutely no coming back. Serious re-balancing needs to be looked at. Northern Realms can't compete.

Play your playset of banner cavalry and you can easily come back... as long as you are on the draw and not play.

 

[shroudb]

And that slowing down is exactly the problem. Now you are spending cards on a round that you are already winning. Nilfgard has a unit that can just give resilience so you dont know it in advance, Scoiatel can play tutors for the resilience adding spell and monsters got that 6 power rider that they can just play one or two leaving you in this weird spot. At least with them you get to see it much like ciri and its not too bad letting them win the round to get rid of them.
My problem is specifically that you cannot target the resilience unit yet because it wasnt played yet and you are that far ahead. In dwarfs use leader (deploying saskia) and yarpen zigrin closing out that lead and second passing with yarpen zigrin on like 8-10 power. You end up loosing the round and its a huge feelsbad and can easily trigger a gameloss.

no, that's not a "problem" that's tactics.

god forbid we play anything other than "play till the highest score, pass"

there ARE tools specifically made for slowing down when you are ahead, use them

 

[QESiriusWolf]

Gwent is not that easy. Like Iorveth said, not bravery but brains, that's how you win. So don't blame the game if you are ahead of the tempo and worrying about resilience. Ask yourself why you are so much ahead if you think your opponent have resilience in hand, or why you didn't bring cards to slow down your tempo like resilience cards or Quen, or why you have not anticipated this.
It's not like getting the biggest number in the 1st round wins the game, you know, or it won't be designed to have 3 rounds. Spare your resources wisely. And don't blame the game unless you think you have already mastered it.

 

[Swifty4]

I play boost Dwarves (so buff the resilience is my game). It's fairly obvious I'm playing this kind of deck in round 1 as I play lots of cards that boosts things, if an opponent can get some card advantage and last card igni/reset then unless I had an amazing hand (all 4 resilience units) I'm screwed.
Against monsters you just hit their biggest stuff - it's generally a good play anyway and it'll weaken the Ekimara if they play it. Same thing with Nilfgard. I feel it's not a problem because one deck can't play that much of it. ST probably end up playing the most because 5 power start is good value and the silver card is great. When I make NG decks I can't afford putting in 3 of resilience guy because he's terrible on his own, this goes same for using rush as it doesn't affect the board at all. There are serious deck considerations that go into using resilience units so, therefore, the deck can be played around and generally you can figure out whether they'll be using them in a few cards (Is it consume monsters, buff ST or a deck that goes all in on a few units).

 

[DannyGuy]

What would be the problem in making the toggle-resilience to a Clash-ability? So there will be no new resilience-units after you have passed.

This is a great idea imo. This shouldn't be on all resilience cards though, Ekkimara and Mahakam Defenders are fine imo, but I think this change would fit nicely for Combat Engineers and maybe Adrenaline Rush.

As for my own opinion, I haven't had any problems with Resilience, not even against Adrenaline Rushed Dol Blathanna Protectors, so I don't think any changes to resilience are necessary. If you pass, and your opponent has a resilient unit on the board, you have to know there is a chance you'll get fucked.

 

[DanielSens]

This is a great idea imo. This shouldn't be on all resilience cards though, Ekkimara and Mahakam Defenders are fine imo, but I think this change would fit nicely for Combat Engineers and maybe Adrenaline Rush.

As for my own opinion, I haven't had any problems with Resilience, not even against Adrenaline Rushed Dol Blathanna Protectors, so I don't think any changes to resilience are necessary. If you pass, and your opponent has a resilient unit on the board, you have to know there is a chance you'll get fucked.

Yes, exactly. Just ad clash to cards/ units that toggle the resilience of another unit.

 

[LDiCesare]

So the problem is you have a lead, want to pass and the opponent is going to play several cards in order to beat you without losing too much card advantage?
Scorch, Bekker's twisted mirror, Geralt:Igni, any of the many cards that reset strength, will all get rid of at least one enemy resilient card which cost 2 cards to play and boost in the first place. So I really miss the point.

 

[RickMelethron]

The problem that happens with it is when the turn order and buffing the unit come into play.

scorch, igni, mardroeme, dimeritium bomb, shackles, silver lock

all of those are made to counter buffed-up resilient units... if you don't run any counters to the strategy, you can't really be bothered by losing to it
i play a dwarf deck myself and i can say for sure that they're not overpowered; same for nilfgaard

 

[Swing9]

I feel like the problem with scoiatel dwarves is the 50 str common units.

 

[Jaudiophile]

This is a great idea imo. This shouldn't be on all resilience cards though, Ekkimara and Mahakam Defenders are fine imo, but I think this change would fit nicely for Combat Engineers and maybe Adrenaline Rush.

As for my own opinion, I haven't had any problems with Resilience, not even against Adrenaline Rushed Dol Blathanna Protectors, so I don't think any changes to resilience are necessary. If you pass, and your opponent has a resilient unit on the board, you have to know there is a chance you'll get fucked.

As a guy who mainly plays Dirty Nilfs, this doesn't affect me much personally because if i'm allowed to play three emissaries and three vicavaro medics in one round, then a scoi'a tel user should also be allowed to play and buff three Mahakam defenders. It's only fair.

apart from adding clash like abilities we could also possibly look at card limiting, or ranked card limiting. Limiting these units, abilities or specials to either one or two full stop could be an answer, much to the detriment of scoi'a tel decks unfortunately, OR we could look at the possibility of ranked limiting.
Ranked limiting could possibly work as follows; cards will be locked and/or limited for purchase until a certain level is attained. For example, 1 mahakam defender unlocked at level 5, 2 unlocked at level 8, 3 at level 10. This could help to slowly introduce these potentially ultra violent strategies at a slower pace allowing for players to be more equipped to dealing with them. Certain card combo's will of course be crippled by such a drastic change but I believe it could possibly help the game be a little more beginner friendly. limiting would stop altogether at a certain level (12 maybe?), as if you're that far into the game then you've probably figured out how to build a deck to defend against such problems.
Aside from this we can almost guarantee that we'll see a lot more cards introduced to gwent in the future and we'll see a huge change in diversity and tactics. I have no doubt CDPR are listening to us and crafting more evil card combos to counter evil card combo's.

 

[Jaudiophile]

I think Resilience is a good thing also I am not playing this cards with this ability. But I see your problem with passing and then the enemy changes everything with one or more cards including a resilience-effect.

What would be the problem in making the toggle-resilience to a Clash-ability? So there will be no new resilience-units after you have passed.

Sorry, wrong quote.

 

[Alpro]

What if units that gain or lose Resilience are also reset to base strength?

 

[halftrolll]

I really like the idea of making resilience a clash ability. It might not be necessary for all cards with the ability, but that would definitely do a lot to reduce the effect of passing and getting rekt by a multiple card resilience play.
On the flip side, cards with resilience are often low-power, so it might actually be balanced in that the opponent will often have to play multiple cards on the resilient unit, which means that even though he wins round one and goes into round two with points on the board, he might end up at a two or even three card disadvantage, which in Gwent is more significant than any other card game I know of.

 

[Skryba86]

This isn't really a problem. Resilience cards are pretty low power. You won't pass and suddenly your opponent drops a 20 power resilient. Only situations that can lead to this are already buffed up units getting awarded resilience by other cards, and in this situation it's on you for knowing that your opponent could do this and not playing around it.

If you know your opponent is likely to put resilience on a unit he so desires, then simply don't let him keep those huge buffed up units to begin with. Play counterplay cards, removal and reset effects, etc. Instead of simply putting numbers on your side of the board to get that 20-30 points advantage you mention, you should probably get it by removing that troublesome unit your opponent has.

Making resilience-awarding cards a clash card totally breaks their usefulness. The whole point of having a card that's basically useless by itself is so you can have that advantage of carrying over strength to the next round. If you make it so it's easy to counter, it becomes rather useless. Think about it, your opponent plays a unit, buffs it up, and then he uses a 3rd card to give it resilience. You play 1 removal/reset card and destroy all of that work. Does that seem fair to you? It's supposed to be a card that you save up for that last play of a round so you can surprise your opponent.

 

[Tschjo]

This isn't really a problem. Resilience cards are pretty low power. You won't pass and suddenly your opponent drops a 20 power resilient. Only situations that can lead to this are already buffed up units getting awarded resilience by other cards, and in this situation it's on you for knowing that your opponent could do this and not playing around it.

If you know your opponent is likely to put resilience on a unit he so desires, then simply don't let him keep those huge buffed up units to begin with. Play counterplay cards, removal and reset effects, etc. Instead of simply putting numbers on your side of the board to get that 20-30 points advantage you mention, you should probably get it by removing that troublesome unit your opponent has.

Making resilience-awarding cards a clash card totally breaks their usefulness. The whole point of having a card that's basically useless by itself is so you can have that advantage of carrying over strength to the next round. If you make it so it's easy to counter, it becomes rather useless. Think about it, your opponent plays a unit, buffs it up, and then he uses a 3rd card to give it resilience. You play 1 removal/reset card and destroy all of that work. Does that seem fair to you? It's supposed to be a card that you save up for that last play of a round so you can surprise your opponent.

You lack experience friend. Dropping 20 + power with one card of which 8-10 are resilient is basically only using your dwarfs leaders ability.

Your playing around it is exactly the problem. Cause that is exactly the problem. Playing around it means adding power to your already ahead board and thats just punishing.

So you want me to kill basically every single Nilfgaard unit? They got 3 10 power knights, they got the defender guy that can grow to 10-16 points with all the spies and dead cows they play no problem. So what are my answers? Weather cards? Every deck is playing around 5-6 anti weather effects so all that ends up happening then is that instead of beeing 20 points ahead you are 8 points ahead but they still just beat that by playing a single card. One scorch? One reset effect? Maybe 2 reset effects if i even have access to them?

You see this is where you didnt get the problem at hand. We are talking about them going second and having a POTENTIAL resilience giving card as backup. Its about how just that dynamic crushes you because you HAVE to play around it but by doing so you hurt yourself.