Make Weather Tick at the End of the Turn

[kaalev]

Make Weather Tick at the End of the Turn

Simply make the damage tick at the end of turn instead of at the start. That way the player who has his rows weathered would have a turn to react to the situation and use clear skies or move his units. Essentially trading a bronze card for a bronze card.

As for silver (except white frost as it simply puts bronze weather on 2 rows) and gold weather cards they should maintain their damage dealt at the start of turn so that they wouldn't be completely countered by a bronze card. As long as the damage is reasonable.

 

[valcat]

Weather can't be countered because it activates at Turn Start

What do I mean by 'Weather can't be countered'?

The main problem with Weather as I see it are the units that proc it which offer it extra value while also allowing deck thinning. Take Wild Hunt Hound for example. Let's say you use it on a row with 3 minions. Even if your opponent plays a Griffin to clear the frost from that row, you've already gained a 8 strength advantage against your enemy's 7. You're coming out on top while trading against a card that's supposed to counter your deck, while thinning your deck at the same time! And this doesn't even touch on having to save Clear Skies to clear multiple weather rows because otherwise it'd be a net loss of value, forcing you to wait some turns while your units are damaged...

Bronze units that pull weather from your deck or vice versa are too strong for their bronze value while also providing deck thinning. So what's the solution?

I think making Weather proc at the End of the turn rather than at it's Start will go a long way to making Weather counter-able. Playing a Griffin or a Blue Stripes Scout will actually offer counter-play to Weather rather than being desperate stop gaps that still end up losing you more stats than you gain.

 

[Xantaro]

Remove overpowered special weather cards imediately, they break the game inferno and other bullshit.. I win cards.

 

[kaalev]

Exactly what I suggested earlier but you voiced it out better. So have a point.

Although my point about gold and silver (apart from white frost as it's essentially 2 bronze cards in one) weather cards stands: they should still deal damage at start of turn as completely countering them with a single bronze card doesn't sound right. But of course, their damage shouldn't be that overbearing az it is now. Imo, skellige storm should deal 2,1,1 damage and gold cards 2 dmg per row (as was noted in last stream).

 

[4RM3D]

What do I mean by 'Weather can't be countered'?

You know what else cannot be countered? Pretty much every (other) damage and removal spell. Okay, okay, that's not entirely true. Sometimes you can play around it, just like with weather. Point being, with all the weather troubles going on, this is not one of them.

 

[valcat]

You know what else cannot be countered? Pretty much every (other) damage and removal spell. Okay, okay, that's not entirely true. Sometimes you can play around it, just like with weather. Point being, with all the weather troubles going on, this is not one of them.

I don't understand your point. If you Alzur's thunder a Longship you trade a bronze card for a bronze card. If you scorch a Katakan you trade silver for silver. When you play an anti-weather card you are always in a losing position since the weather cards are played by a bronze unit, or summon foglets. So when you get weathered, even if you play an anti-weather card, which is -only- in your deck because of weather being a thing, you are -still- losing on stats from the trade while your opponent thins his deck. Moving the weather timer to turn end will help mitigate that. And sure as kaalev mentioned above if the weather proc on turn end would be limited to bronze weather that would be fine. Frost, Fog and rain are balanced, it's the monsters that pull them out and thin your deck or get pulled out of your deck that make weather always a net positive even when your opponent has 6 anti-weather cards in their decks.

Let's use your example of special cards with a card that used to be utterly busted for a long time: Elven Mercenary. You could use Elven Mercenary to cast special cards while also gaining 4 stats and the card was completely busted even though the special card played was random. Elven Merc would still be busted if Rally wasn't a thing. A 4 strength unit that pulls an Alzur's thunder from your deck and plays it is a broken bronze unit, yet we have units like those for weather who are 5 strength. And Elven Mercenary? It's a spy now.

 

[Skryba86]

Yeah, I don't think this is the way to "fix" it. If weather really didn't have some sort of immediate payback, it'd simply become too bad to use standalone weather cards.

​​​​​Although, I really really dislike how weather's working right now.

 

[4RM3D]

So when you get weathered, even if you play an anti-weather card, [...] you are -still- losing on stats from the trade while your opponent thins his deck.

I suppose that is a difference with direct damage. However, there is a turn side to this. Gold weather (which is getting nerfed) will soon hit for 2 damage per row up to 6 total if you have units across all rows. If weather would tick at the end of the turn then gold weather would become too much of a gamble because trading a bronze to directly counter a gold is a bad trade-off. Same goes for silver weather to a lesser extend. Also, every faction has bronze and silver units that can remove weather. Playing these will still give you tempo, while countering the opponent.

 

[kaalev]

I suppose that is a difference with direct damage. However, there is a turn side to this. Gold weather (which is getting nerfed) will soon hit for 2 damage per row up to 6 total if you have units across all rows. If weather would tick at the end of the turn then gold weather would become too much of a gamble because trading a bronze to directly counter a gold is a bad trade-off. Same goes for silver weather to a lesser extend. Also, every faction has bronze and silver units that can remove weather. Playing these will still give you tempo, while countering the opponent.

Although my point about gold and silver (apart from white frost as it's essentially 2 bronze cards in one) weather cards stands: they should still deal damage at start of turn as completely countering them with a single bronze card doesn't sound right. But of course, their damage shouldn't be that overbearing az it is now. Imo, skellige storm should deal 2,1,1 damage and gold cards 2 dmg per row (as was noted in last stream).

 

[Skryba86]

It'd be a mess to have weather that damages at the start of the turn and weather that damages at the end of the turn. You don't want that kind of complication in the game, IMO.

Weather damaging at the start of the turn is fine. If weather is going to stay as it is (affecting only the opponent's side or the board when you apply it), IMO what needs to happen is first light needs to be buffed. The bronze and silver units that clear weather are fine, they're not overly good but they do their job very well and together with proper placement of your units (now that RNR and drought are going to be much less oppressive) they're enough to deal with weather spamming.

First light, though, is simply horrendous as it is. You never, ever want to play first light to spawn clear weather. It's essentially wasting a card and a turn just so you won't lose more than you already have lost by the time you use the card. First light needs to either clear weather from 1 row and spawn a random bronze unit, or if they want to keep both effects as separate options then just have clear weather affect the whole board and apply some sort of buff to all units previously affected by weather, so that it isn't an outright tempo and CA loss.

 

[D3giler]

Simply make the damage tick at the end of turn instead of at the start. That way the player who has his rows weathered would have a turn to react to the situation and use clear skies or move his units. Essentially trading a bronze card for a bronze card.

As for silver (except white frost as it simply puts bronze weather on 2 rows) and gold weather cards they should maintain their damage dealt at the start of turn so that they wouldn't be completely countered by a bronze card. As long as the damage is reasonable.

This is the same solution I came to. Having weather activate at the end of the turn encourages you to react instead of pass all the time.

I think weather effects that are the result of Spells(mainly the Gold Weathers) should activate at the Start of the Turn just like Merigold's hail would. For some reason Skellige's Storm still bothers me, perhaps if Skellige's Storm pushed all non-affected units off the row it wouldn't feel so ridiculously powered while still providing some sort of useful utility. It's also thematic and I'm a sucker for thematic Cards.

Nevertheless, that's my 2 cents.

- D3

 

[Sargarth]

I agree that weather should hit at the end of the turn. In the old days of CB rot tossers were different: the cow carcass triggered at the start of the turn instead of turn end, meaning that NG player had the last say before the trigger, what usually led up to lining up a lot of units for the carcass to kill loads of units. It's the same with weather atm: if you have a row with 3x same strength units and it's fogged you play a higher strength unit to tank the damage, yet it's another player who has the last say before the weather triggers, meaning he can easily damage a high str unit and allign your row to take massive damage. I expect to see that changed after the upcoming patch as weather monsters become the only deck you see on the ladder and people start realizing how unfair it is.

 

[Mystikast]

I think i fixed weather! I am hype about this plz read!!!

Hello all,

I have been thinking about weather a lot -- and I think I may have a viable solution.

When a player casts a unit that brings weather in, like Wild Hunt Hound, have it deal damage at the START of that players turn.

This will make it so the opponent does not automatically take damage from the weather, giving them a turn to move around, will reduce the OP of SK 'deal 2 damage to an opponent already damaged, if so, summon another and repeat' card -- and generally reduces its power a bit, but not TOO much.

NOTE: This will only apply to units that cast weather; casting a weather card straight up should 100% deal damage immediatly at the start of opponents turn.

Example: Player A casts Wild Hunt Hound w/ Biting Frost on the first row of Player B.
Player B now has the option to move units around etc., to mitigate the biting frost before his next turn begins
Player A's turn comes around: weather damage is dealt at the start.

This will still set the row as 'off limits', but will give the opponent a bit of flexibility.

Now this doesn't need to be a permanent fix, but I think it is a very easy implementable band-aid.

Hopefully that is understandable, I am horrible at explaining things. Please give me your feedback.

Alternatively, instead of having it deal damage at the start of the casters turn, you could have it deal damage at the END of the opponents turn. Roughly same principle applies. The idea is the 1 turn buffer to deal with it before it slams you (especially biting frost).

So instead of weather dealing damage at the START of a turn (like it does now), have it deal damage at the END of a turn.

Player A casts wild Hunt hound w/ biting frost
Player B's turn begins, no weather damage is dealt. Player B can try to mitigate damage.
Player B ends his turn, the weather Player A cast now deals damage.

TL;DR Have weather deal damage at the end of a turn, not the start

 

[WingedEspeon]

I think the end of the player with weather played on them's turn would be better, as it would still give them time to clear but would be a bit better when the weather user had passed.

 

[DannyGuy]

This has already been suggested - weather ticking at the end of the turn rather than the start. I agree with this.

However, I disagree with it ticking differently when the weather is spawned or pulled out of your deck. This would be really confusing, especially for new players. And how could you tell which weather ticks when once its on the board? I don't expect people to remember which weather ticks when... erm... when which weather ticks? Which tick ticks when weather weathers...

I think that weather on your side should generally just tick at the end of your turn. As compensation, cards that have heavy synergies with weather (like Nithral) could be buffed a bit, to have a higher chance of surviving till the end of the turn in order to proc their ability.

 

[devivre]

Well, it's difficult because if you play a card, you want to get at least a bit value from it.
If it doesn't trigger right away, you'll not often get that from these cards, because most players have more than one answer to weather.
So I'm not entirely sure that's the solution.

 

[4RM3D]

Mystikast

Late to the party, unfortunately. I mean, thread merged.

 

[TriforceDragon]

Well, it's difficult because if you play a card, you want to get at least a bit value from it.
If it doesn't trigger right away, you'll not often get that from these cards, because most players have more than one answer to weather.
So I'm not entirely sure that's the solution.

And instead people who play First Light are the one who get no value from it? First Light is a 0 point gain, while the weather it removes has already ticked. First Light will always be a net loss of points to play to clear weather and that is the core of the problem. If weather ticked at the end of the turn, then plain weather against plain First Light would be an even trade as no points were gained on any side.

On the other hand weather spawning minion into first light would still be a gain for the weather player, while weather minion into weather clearing minion leaves a minion for either side. You could tweak the minions to be more in line with each other to balance things out if needed.

Only weather cards I would change would be RnR and Drought, as they are golds. I would attach a minion to them, giving the player some power gain even in the case of a fight light clear.

 

[Starelementpoke]

And instead people who play First Light are the one who get no value from it? First Light is a 0 point gain, while the weather it removes has already ticked. First Light will always be a net loss of points to play to clear weather and that is the core of the problem. If weather ticked at the end of the turn, then plain weather against plain First Light would be an even trade as no points were gained on any side.

On the other hand weather spawning minion into first light would still be a gain for the weather player, while weather minion into weather clearing minion leaves a minion for either side. You could tweak the minions to be more in line with each other to balance things out if needed.

Only weather cards I would change would be RnR and Drought, as they are golds. I would attach a minion to them, giving the player some power gain even in the case of a fight light clear.

This, actually sounds like a way to finally balance the thing out. That being said, the more prominent issue with weather is weather spam, not so much the weather itself.

 

[KingVridank]

weather effects should be applied at the end of turn so that player may have a chance to react (without losing strength).