The weakness that is Scoia'tael

[schidzo]

The weakness that is Scoia'tael

Well, as you might have noticed, almost nobody plays Scoia'tael due to how weak it is and I think we all agree that they need some loving. But in order to do so, we need to recognize why the faction is so weak compared to the others. But first let's look at what it's supposed to be good at:
- Persistence through Dwarves
- Removal and trickery
- Utilizing special cards
- Potential creature spam (Commando Neophytes)

All this has great potential, but in practice, they just fall short and are easily countered or outclassed:
- Dwarves: They just get removed easily and are vulnerable to weather.
- Removal and trickery: NR and Skellige generally don't care about the removal because of promote and all the chain rezzing and Monsters only care about mass removal, and the only mass removal Scoia'tael has is through Ambush, and that's easily circumvented. In general, ambush cards are just very easily anticipated. Also, NR control is just better.
- Utilizing special cards: This is the one thing Scoia'tael is great at, but it's also not that reliable when using Elven Mercenaries. And Hawker Supports just get removed through either Scorch, D-bomb, weather or Philippa. Heck, you're lucky if it survives the turn you play it as it's only 2 strength initially.
- Commando Neophytes: The only way to reliably get a lot of Neophytes is through Isengrim, and even then it's only really useful at the end of the match and get easily removed by any AoE. Also, monsters just does it better while also cycling their deck.

But I feel the biggest issue is that generally the Scoia'tael units just are very low on strength, like Monster low. But while Monsters cycle their deck and when they play a unit they generally get 3 in one go, Scoia'tael only gains 1 unit that does something and then sits there being of low value. Dol Blathanna Archer only grants you a total of 7 Strength and is really only useful against a creature that grows or does things while on the field. The golden unit that can gain the highest pure Strength gain is Iorveth, which is 12, and even then he has the same strength as Triss and is lower than Roche (because of the NR passive) A lot of their other cards generally are either just unreliable to get a potential high strength on. So even when they use all their removal and trickery, they are sitting there still with a low total strength count with vulnerable creatures.
And finally, there's the issue that the other decks just have better ways of cycling their deck (NR has reinforcement, Priscilla and Reavers, Monsters have their foglets and muster units, and Skellige has their draw + discard) as they are all creature related (they bring creatures onto the field or in the spot where you want them) while Scoia'tael is so reliant on Special cards, and special cards generally want to be played at the right moments for their maximum effect while the one card that cycles their deck reliably (as it's their only bronze unit that can cycle), Elven Mercenary, does it at random.

So how can we make Scoia'tael better? Well, here are some suggestions:
- Raise the strength of some of their units
- Make their cycling more reliable
- Give them a way to deal with golden cards

Anyways, what does everyone else think? How can we make this faction viable to play and win with?

 

[Maokiel]

I did have some success with a weird Heitne weather / removal oriented deck, but it was really tricky to play. Scoia'Tael are really interesting on paper, but ambush cards are too easy to avoid to be really effective. Hawker support deck may go up for big number but lack the resurection trick of Skellige and NR.

BUT - a big one - I do think that Scoia'Tael are more or less fine as they are.
WAIT - a long one - before screaming, the point is not that Scoia'Tael are bad, it is that NR and Skellige are too good, mostly because of resurection, and that Monster have an easier learning curve.

If Devs are able to bring back NR and Skellige into the balance bracket, and give a bit of love to Scoia'Tael, then they will shine again.

 

[Lytha]

If Scoia are so "weak", then why do I have a win% of 55% with them?


I of course wouldn't say no to some resurrects, or if they had the ability to demote the Northern plague, or something like that. But I think that they, in fact, already are very nice.

 

[Pyrofox]

I tend to agree with the other posters that say Scoia aren't bad, but elements of the other decks are too strong in comparison. I also think they have the weakest starter deck and the highest learning curve, which combined dramatically influences the communities perception of them. Once cards like Philippa, Priscilla, Trebs, Priestesses, Woodland & Caranthir are brought into line, I think Scoia will start to look a lot more attractive to people. They have some monstrously powerful cards of their own like Blue Mountain Commando and Aglais.

 

[devivre]

I'm not sure Scoia is weak. However it doesn't seem as easy to get the hang of it as it is with NR or Monsters. And often when I'm playing against this faction it doesn't feel like there is a real game plan there. But I've met really strong Scoia decks as well! The high flexibility of the units is certainly a huge asset but at some point you have focus on a row otherwise it's difficult to use commander horn. And if you do, you are usually vulnerable.

Haven't played often enough with it myself to really judge the deck (only 4 times... won 3 times though). I do like the aggressiveness of this deck.

 

[Rawls]

I definitely think an opponent graveyard clearing card would do the deck very well. Scoia'tael is really based on disruption. Wounding, weather, special counters and synegizers, etc. A silver card that empties opponents graveyard would be consistent with disruption tactics. Overall it's incredibly fun and if you know what you're doing can be very competitive. The best part about the deck is you don't have to go all in on one strategy to be competitive. I agree that the starter deck is less competitive than others and it takes time to build a good deck. Once you have Eithne and Aglais it's a game changer.

 

[Lytha]

Still working on those scraps for Eithne.

If I only could make myself at least mill the duplicates of "same card, different art" of those factions that I never touch... but hoarder instincts scream "don't you dare!"...


(I can see a problem with me and Eithne though. With the leader clearly not being newbie deck material anymore, my cover will be blown right at the start. No more "look at me, all I got is this harmless little card, I can't hurt a fly" pretension... Being underestimated helps. )

 

[Rufus.255]

I only play Scoia'tael. It is by far my favorite faction. I feel, like many others in this thread, that Scoia'tael should be fine once the other factions are brought into line. There are a few things that would like to see.

1) I like the idea of a silver card that removes cards from grave yards. However, I feel like this should actually be a neutral card.
2) Mahakam Defenders and Guards should be frost immune, they live in the Mountains.
3) Something to deal with weather along the lines of Archgriffin. However, it should be different.
4) A neutral special card is needed for all factions that turns all golds to silver. Moon Dust?
5) Ambush is currently week. Add a new card like Elven Mercenary that plays two random Ambush cards face down.

 

[Rawls]

Still working on those scraps for Eithne.

If I only could make myself at least mill the duplicates of "same card, different art" of those factions that I never touch... but hoarder instincts scream "don't you dare!"...


(I can see a problem with me and Eithne though. With the leader clearly not being newbie deck material anymore, my cover will be blown right at the start. No more "look at me, all I got is this harmless little card, I can't hurt a fly" pretension... Being underestimated helps. )

It's worth it. Also the skill is pretty useful multiple ways. I've even used it to replay on something as low as a dol blathana archer to win a round 2 (and the game) before. Or move a mobile unit that was hit with weather to get the few extra points in a different row. Or if you played Yarpen in round 1 you can use Eithne to replay Yarpen in round 2 to get an extra turn out of him. It's not like the monster weather leader card that when you see it you immediately know "weather deck." Aglais or Geralt: Igni are generally the best uses, but definitely not the only options.

 

[Lytha]

Rawls I can imagine. I am already in love with Blue Mountain Commandos, and Eithne is the same thing in shinier.

It just ... makes it so obvious that this Scoia is not going to be a lovely little derp doing harmless things. Well, at least, I always go on red alert if I see that opponent does not run one of the starter leaders.

 

[april6e]

If Scoia are so "weak", then why do I have a win% of 55% with them?

Because you are playing weak players. Anyone can have a 90% win rate if they run even a halfway decent NR deck with Phillipa or a Monster weather deck because almost nobody at a lower level has anything to counter those cards.

 

[Rawls]

Because you are playing weak players. Anyone can have a 90% win rate if they run even a halfway decent NR deck with Phillipa or a Monster weather deck because almost nobody at a lower level has anything to counter those cards.

I have a very good success rate against NR duplicate promote decks with Philippa, Medics, Shani, Priscilla, Reavers, Trebuches and all the rest. I also do well against monster weather decks with Caranthir, Woodland Spirit, Avallach, etc etc. I would say it's 50/50 or better. Now I won't lie, if I get a crap draw against one of those decks its 9/10 times game over. But if I get the draw I'm looking for it's 9/10 times my way. The rest of the time it's more mixed obviously.

 

[LordOcampo]

If you believe Scoia'tael are weak, you haven't run into players spamming the "hawker support" and Special cards tactic. That card is in need of serious nerfing.

 

[schidzo]

If you believe Scoia'tael are weak, you haven't run into players spamming the "hawker support" and Special cards tactic. That card is in need of serious nerfing.

I'm level 54 right now, and trust me, that deck is very easily countered with cards you should run anyway, like Geralt Igni, D-bomb and Scorch.

And I'm a bit miffed that people here think Scoia'tael is good. Are they fun? Yeah, they're great fun, but they ain't good, as even in the control area they get outshined by the others (ever met a Radovid control deck? That has hurt me way more than any Scoia'tael I've ever met) Now, it could be that if they toned down the other 3 factions that Scoia'tael can become viable, but I still have the feeling they are missing something.

 

[Lytha]

Because you are playing weak players. Anyone can have a 90% win rate if they run even a halfway decent NR deck with Phillipa or a Monster weather deck because almost nobody at a lower level has anything to counter those cards.

Interesting. So you say that all those 160 players that form my sample are "bad players"?



Ah, I also need to correct the number. Win rate is now 59%. Yeah, that includes 10 newbies yesterday afternoon; but also a lot more normal opponents in the evening when I decided to go after the 3rd level up after all. I expect the win rate to be higher now that I got Eithne, too. The starting sample of 13 matches with that new Eithne deck look very promising (85% win rate, but let's not get too cocky yet; 8 opponents without too advanced cards, 5 very advanced opponents; the two losses happened against 1 advanced opponent, 1 guy without shiny gold cards but who knew what he was doing.)

 

[devivre]

I think the only important thing is that you have fun playing with Scoia, no matter what the winning percentage is (with Skellige I've tried out a few setups that didn't work but it was still fun to try it out... despite losing a lot... losing too often can be boring too ). And I'm sure this deck will get a slight boost up with the next patch. Hopefully that makes it more attractive for other players. Anyway I'd love to play more against this faction (or Skellige) - whoever wants to play a match feel free to add me (devivre).

 

[Sunsibar]

I had fun with elves yesterday. I don't know how to play with that deck and mostly I just keep loosing, but it's fun! I have gotten few better cards in it, but it's not the deck that I can use if I want to win. Still it was fun to do experiments with it I love that trap system. Need to do more experiments with that deck once I get new and better cards.

 

[Exentryk]

SCO aren't weak. They just lack weather protection just like NR, but those counters are coming. SCO can potentially have the highest amount of turn advantage cards, so basically have a way to always be the last to play. And then they can use two or three commander's horns and get to whatever score they need to beat.

The number of SCO players currently being lower is more due to that deck needing a lot more investment than other decks.

 

[Ouderkirkj]

I actually find Scoia'tael to be the toughest faction in the game to beat when a strategist is behind it. They have some crazy combos and insane tricks up their sleeve.

 

[Noela]

I play mostly Scoia; they are not weak, they are like...a difficult child XD
It's not an easy deck, there is not super effective and easy strategy, but it is not weak. You have to invest on the deck, as Exentryk has said, and Scoia doesn't allow for carefree playing, you need to be attentive and shrewd...the faction is heavily underrated because is not so "obvious" as other factions.