Resurrection is da key

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Resurrection is da key

Now that the patch is not a newborn anymore (I'm among those satisfied by it), I wanted to share some thoughts.

Right now weather has been nerfed and nekkers cannot be breeded anymore, so MS lost their two most powerful decks.

Foltest, Harald, Henselt and Brouver Ambush are the new strong suit.
Why?

Ambush is strong only because you can pump Sappers, so let's put them aside for now.

My theory is simple: NR and SK have superior strength because of their ability to resurrect key units vastly outnumber whatever counters the enemy has.

Let's start with Foltest.
Right now ppl are just spamming Trebuchets, ressing them if Alzured, using Kaedw.Siege -or Promote- if Torrential Rained (Str 4 is beyond Lacerate), using Reinforcement and Foltest's ability if locked.
Anything goes as long as the Treb is on the board, no matter if Str is 1 or 8, it will still remove 1 point per turn, which is more than enough if used en masse.
It means that the raw Str they bring to the board becomes a decisive factor in no time.
Let's compare Treb with Arachas Behemot+Vran.
Treb is 1 point each turn.
Arachas+1 Vran is 3 points every 2 turns, meaning 1.5.
To achieve 1:1 with MS, you need 1 Vran+2Arachas (6 points avery 2 turns), but it's not as simple as it is for NR.
Behemots are only 3 in the deck, and once dead there is no card in MS who can bring them back to the board, unlike NR who has 3 ress bronze units, Nenneke and Shani, not to mention they can simply cloned an existing Treb with Reinforcement and Foltest.
Furthermore, unless you have 3 working units on the board MS won't work, while with NR every Treb is operative independently to other cards, so MS is incredibly easier to disrupt in comparison.
It's like pre-patch Weather, where Weather-generating cards' number was quite bigger than the 3 First Light, so weather cound not be truly countered.

Henselt uses the ress to bring back Siege Towers or 3-copies units like Poor. Inf and shot the Gold row, almost as effective as Foltest since Towers require Gold while Trebs are independent.

SK has 3 ress bronze units and 1 Silver nanny, plus Restore.
They do not have the promote/cloning skill of NR, but that is offset by the fact their units become more powerful as round passes.
There is little point in locking/killing a Axeman in round 1 if he'll be back more healthy in round 2 or 3.
Ofc, if you leave an Axeman undisturbed in round 1, he will get to 25+ Str, so you'll probably won't even reach round 3.
Again, the problem is that the Str brought to the board is too much for MS, NF or ST to keep up, and counter cards are too few even if the stars align and you get a strong hand.

NF has ress units as well, but the Vicovaro resses from the enemy's graveyard, so there are little to no synergies for them to use a A.Behemoth or an Axeman.
MS has just 1 Gold Caretaker in all the arsenal, again with no useful synergies.

I mean, everyone know how nice is to ress the enemy's KoB, but sometimes you want a card that will work with your set strategy.

Conclusion: Resurrection is the strongest strategy and it's not counterable, so factions without it are inherently weaker.
 
Interesting note, but a Milfguard Control deck with Auckes+Cleaver+DShackles+ Dbomb can counter SK wounding pretty hard. Locked units stay locked in the graveyard. Even if you rez them they will not trigger. Milfguard Control is less effective versus NR Trebuchets+buffing spam. too many great units that pump out buffs.
 
TheAnhsor;n8335330 said:
Interesting note, but a Milfguard Control deck with Auckes+Cleaver+DShackles+ Dbomb can counter SK wounding pretty hard. Locked units stay locked in the graveyard. Even if you rez them they will not trigger. Milfguard Control is less effective versus NR Trebuchets+buffing spam. too many great units that pump out buffs.

If you resurrect a locked unit, the lock is removed though.
 
if the lock is removed when resurrected then whats the point of it staying locked in the graveyard? I wonder if this is a bug or working as intended......
 
TheAnhsor;n8336020 said:
if the lock is removed when resurrected then whats the point of it staying locked in the graveyard? I wonder if this is a bug or working as intended......

I.E. Morkvarg, foglet, Roach, they come back to the board from the graveyard under some circumstances.

A unit locked in the graveyard cannot use their ability until resurrected.


 
Whilst a lot of your observations are correct and resurrection is certainly a strong mechanic, I believe that the conclusion you draw is incorrect. At least, it doesn't match my own experiences. You correctly identified the new top dogs (Foltest, Harald, Brouver) and try to blame reanimation for it.

First of, Brouver has no reanimation and is still arguably one of the best if not the best deck currently around (you put it aside at the beginning and never pick it up again...). Whilst, the other factions don't have comparable reanimation which is good to define faction identity, they certainly don't struggle to keep up in power.

Secondly, NR had reanimation even before the patch but was nowhere near top tier. Reanimation on its own seems to be worthless without a good payoff target like treb. or axeman. Post patch SK was also not dull because of priestess, but because of morkvarg who in its past state was actually uncounterable.

Furthermore, you state that reanimation is uncounterable, but especially MS and NG have plenty of counter options (vicovaro medic, Griffin, caretaker, katakan, ghoul etc).

TLDR resurrection is only a piece of the engine that on its own doesn't divide all factions in good and bad ones
 
I kept Brouver out because his strength is due to a simple exploit about the use of Sappers.
A simple hotfix might make ST normal-tier again.
Also, ST's post-patch exploit was clear to everyone long before I wrote my post.

My aim was to discuss NR and SK's exploit, namely resurrection galore.

Of course pre-patch it was not top-tier, but the new Trebuchet made a previously standard mechanic OP.

Countering with vicovaro, griffin, caretaker?
Are you serious?
No amount of ressing enemy graveyard or moving dead units into yours can prevent the resurrection tactic to use all the units they need, too many will remain no matter your efforts.

If you want agree to disagree be my guest.
 
Well you talk about 2 cards in particular axemen and treb as payout options from which only three per deck can exist. So yes, I am serious when I consider the mentioned cards as potential counter options. MS was and still is also able to compete with SK and NR power swings.
Maybe I misjudged your post for a serious discussion about resurrection in which we present arguments and it is in fact just another "agree or die" thread. In that case, y - lets agree to not agree
 
reliusclover;n8339930 said:
Im currently using monster deck and they got a lots of ways to poke SK graveyard XD

how you do that? are you moving them to your grave with griffin? or eat their corpse with you ghoul or katakan?
but nowdays axeman is the real treat because its spirit whale card (forget name) can be a big boost to their axeman. decreasing one row arachas kids is a nightmare for you.
 
Anen;n8340270 said:
how you do that? are you moving them to your grave with griffin? or eat their corpse with you ghoul or katakan? but nowdays axeman is the real treat because its spirit whale card (forget name) can be a big boost to their axeman. decreasing one row arachas kids is a nightmare for you.

Ekimarra are a wonderful creature to eat whales, so only spend that card unless necessary , and i would advise trying to win round one so your Katakan can eat there winning card, or Griffin to take it away. I never fear there Axeman, as long as you got CA, especially round 3, weather can easily make there axeman useless (im using Dagon, btw, my deck is a arachas+devourer+grave hag tactic) Kayran is also one of my favorite card to use, its also best in devouring Cantarella of Nilfguard and spies.
You just really need to be one step ahead in the playing field, "Expect everything" Doubt Everything" this is whats always running in my head.
 
Ninschi;n8339980 said:
Well you talk about 2 cards in particular axemen and treb as payout options from which only three per deck can exist. So yes, I am serious when I consider the mentioned cards as potential counter options. MS was and still is also able to compete with SK and NR power swings.
Maybe I misjudged your post for a serious discussion about resurrection in which we present arguments and it is in fact just another "agree or die" thread. In that case, y - lets agree to not agree

Lol about the bolded part :scared:...

I am the one who misjudged you as someone who can do the math, it appears.

Even you ran a MS deck with 3 griffins or a NF with 3 Vicovaro, it takes a very lucky hand to have them from round 1, as opposed to the enemy having 1 Treb/Axeman and 1-2 ress cards over the course of the whole match. Can you keep the ress-counters idle in your hand until a chance to use them arrives at the right moment? Isn't sub-par?

More so, you seem to ignore the playing order of cards.
Suppose you start Round 2 with the enemy having 2 Axemen/Trebs in the graveyard.
He will manage to ress one no matter whether he starts the turn or not.
Or just plainly this: Axeman/Treb appears, you Alzur it, enemy resses it immediately.
What do you do with your Griffin/Vicovaro?

Griffins/Vicovaro cannot be effectively used as counters.

If you have a good counterargument be my guest and write it.
 
reliusclover;n8340580 said:
as long as you got CA, especially round 3, weather can easily make there axeman useless (im using Dagon, btw, my deck is a arachas+devourer+grave hag tactic) Kayran is also one of my favorite card to use, its also best in devouring Cantarella of Nilfguard and spies. You just really need to be one step ahead in the playing field, "Expect everything" Doubt Everything" this is whats always running in my head.

CA whats that? playing fog to reduce axeman STR mean reducing your arachas spawn unit. all your tactic is the same with me but weather.
i hope i got geels to boost my devour deck.
another question why ppl say nilfguard instead nilfgaard?
 
Anen;n8342500 said:
CA whats that? playing fog to reduce axeman STR mean reducing your arachas spawn unit. all your tactic is the same with me but weather.
i hope i got geels to boost my devour deck.
another question why ppl say nilfguard instead nilfgaard?

Oh lol, did i say nilfguard, guess its smoother on the tongue even though its pronounce the same, hahahaha. But yey, its actually not painful on my Arachas, but an interesting tactic you can note, sometimes i dont cast fog but i go for rain in this situation, now your like "but why?!" well, i have geralt:aard in my deck and hes pretty nifty in taking out a lot of cards that are buff a lot, but another thing to take not, lets say by now, ive had like 7-10 arachas, maybe even more, and lets say hes got 1-2 axeman with like 20-30 str, when you cast fog, hell be down to 1-2 while i still got... 7-10 XD and CA means, Card Advantage. Im running Grave Hag so its always a must for me to have her be the last card to play in the game. Even if the number of cards in both of your hands are the same, make sure that in Round 3, your opponent plays first, this way, youll get the last play of the game.
 
reliusclover;n8343050 said:
Oh lol, did i say nilfguard, guess its smoother on the tongue even though its pronounce the same, hahahaha. But yey, its actually not painful on my Arachas, but an interesting tactic you can note, sometimes i dont cast fog but i go for rain in this situation, now your like "but why?!" well, i have geralt:aard in my deck and hes pretty nifty in taking out a lot of cards that are buff a lot, but another thing to take not, lets say by now, ive had like 7-10 arachas, maybe even more, and lets say hes got 1-2 axeman with like 20-30 str, when you cast fog, hell be down to 1-2 while i still got... 7-10 XD and CA means, Card Advantage. Im running Grave Hag so its always a must for me to have her be the last card to play in the game. Even if the number of cards in both of your hands are the same, make sure that in Round 3, your opponent plays first, this way, youll get the last play of the game.

wkwkw i thought you were imagining guarding a milf :v
geralt aard and weather is work perfectly
long life weather
 
Checco515;n8341070 said:
If you have a good counterargument be my guest and write it.

Well, I have been your 'guest' already and hopefully made my point clear whilst providing the arguments that led me to my conclusions.
 
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