The Witcher Setting: Religion and the Witcher???

[ezane]

The Witcher Setting: Religion and the Witcher???

Ok, I'm finished the first game and I'm playing the second game (just got through the prologue), and something has been bothering me for awhile. I like the witcher, I do, but for a game that very much tries to be realistic and dark, it really had a confused and jumbled. Setting. Maybe this is just because I didn't read the Polish novels, but their are some things about the world that just don't make any sense to me, and the formost of them is religion in the games. Ok so Termaria which is sort of a fantasy early medieval Poland, worships a sort of Catholic Stand in the Church of Melitele, who one god made up of three parts, except instead of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, its the classic trope of the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone. Ok, I got that. Except in the first game, with the exception of some nurses and one church/hospital, the church doesn't make an appearence. Instead the most prominent faith is the Cult of the Eternal Fire, which is more like an analog to German Lutheran Protestant faith, being a foreign faith from the West (or was it south?) Ok, I get that, still fitting the whole Medieval Poland theme. But then, why are they so powerful, they are described as being extremely fanatical, calling the Water Lord Worshipers and nonhumans "pagans/heathens" which implies they aren't tolerant, so why does the majority faith of Melitele tolerate these people? Wouldn't they also be persecuted by the main faith? Wouldn't they in turn be violitile towards the Melite Cult? They certainly are against the Cult of the Lionheaded Spider? Why do they have so much authority, enough to have an armed guard within Vivemia, one strong enough to give the king pause. Does the church of Melitele have an armed guard? I'd understand that the king wouldn't want the church having its own army, but why does the Eternal fire have one. Is the King a convert? No he makes no mention of that when you meet him. I don't understand. Also, why is the Church of the Eternal Flame against nonhumans, its never really properly explained. Also, what is the Church of the Lionheaded Spider. Abigail is a member it seems, and a book mentions they evil. Apperently they are outlawed, as I found them hiding out in the sewers, and they attacked me on sight when I went in, even though I was just going in to say hi. Are they just a creepy demon cult?


Finally, things get even more confusing in the second game, on the attack on the La Valette, the guards their sometimes yell out that we are heretics and hethens. Now maybe they are just refering to Geralt becuase he is is a Witcher, but it seems to be a weird thing to yell, do they worship a different god. And when the King (spoilers alert for those who haven't played the Witcher 2 prologue) you get to the temple, which its unclear who the temple is dedicated to. However, when the Kingslayer (I haven't gotten further into the game yet, but the Witcher in the intro who kills the king and the same guy who kills Folstest, the muscled bald guy) is pretending to be a priest, he asks King Foltest to pray to "The Forefather", which Foltest then does. Who the hell is the Forefather? Is that yet another faith? Is that another name for the Eternal Fire? If it isn't the main faith of the realm, why is Foltest worshiping him? I'm so confused


is any of this explained in the novels

 

[Blothulfur]

Polytheistic not monotheistic.

 

[ezane]

Correct, he mentions "The Forefather and the Mother Creatrix"

 

[Garrison72]

I can't explain CDPR's motives, but I've always thought there was damning commentary on organized religion in TW1, less so in TW2. It rarely gets mentioned though, and this baffles me. So either it's embedded with remarkable deftness, or I'm reading too much into it.

 

[Corylea.723]

Sapkowski is a strange blend of the medieval and the modern. It's one reason why the books are so compelling -- modern people have trouble understanding a genuinely medieval mindset -- but it also means that the various parts don't always work together that well.

I never thought that Melitele was supposed to have anything to do with the Catholic church; it seems like regular ole Goddess worship to me. A lot of Europe worshiped a three-part Goddess during the early years, until that Jewish carpenter came along, and his religion supplanted the older one. The early church deliberately suppressed Goddess worship as much as possible, and what they couldn't suppress, they took over and Christianized. The whole cult of the Virgin Mary is the Church's effort to get Goddess worshipers into the Church, and it's been a damned successful one.

If you don't think of the cult of Melitele as being Catholics, then the whole religion thing makes more sense.

 

[Eri94_user70]

Ever read anything about Warhammer? This is a great anecdote about the similarity about why you want religious fanatics, and that's because they are efficient and because they are not capable to compete with the dominant religion.

As of such people don't really question The cult of the Eternal fire for several reasons.

1. They are not a threat to compete with the Temple of Melitele due to its size.
2. They initially are helping the temple of Melitele by "cleaning out the trash" and also being looked upon as the bad guys. This means that the temple of Melitele don't have to worry themselves by dealing with any problems that might occur. Just let the Eternal Fire deal with them as they get results.
3. They are not theoretically opposing the temple of Melitele. They essentially have the same belief (just a more extreme version of it) and of such isn't as large of a problem to the Temple of Melitele as the Cult of Lionhead spiders.

The temple of Melitele have no real connection to the Waterlords as this is a very small religious belief. Melitele doesn't also promote violence per se and as of such unless the Eternal fire find it in their interest to "purge the unclean" they are merely looked upon as a nuisance. Which of course the Eternal fire does not since they still consider the biggest threat in the game at least to be the Cult of the Lionhead Spider.

The reason they are against the Lionhead Cult is because this is another religion all together. The Lionhead is more of a pagan religion, using old methods (sacrifices, curses etc) which are methods prohibited by the Temple of Melitele. Though again, why get your hand dirty when you can have a small bunch of fanatics to do it for you, so here again comes the Eternal Fire into use for The Temple of Melitele.

The church of Eternal Fire is against nonhumans because they are portrayed in the game solely during circumstances when they are fighting nonhumans which have driven the church of Eternal fire in the game at the very least to be portrayed as racists thinking all nonhumans are a freedom fighter and fight against human ideals and the well being of human lives.

Witchers have no religion. Only thing that have been talked about is destiny. Granted though, based on what we've seen and heard in books and the game most Witchers don't really give a rats arse about religion.

About the Forefather thing, in war it has always have been a valid thing to yell at your enemies because religion fuels your soldiers in battle. Calling your enemy as heretic although they both worship the Temple of Melitele is basically a definition that your action is wrong, our is right and the Temple of Melitele support our call + you suck.

Forefathers are the old gods or simply put the people who were here before us, they are not specified that much in the game. In generally I would assume forefathers simply mean the people who lived in the witcher universe from ancient times. I.e the first humans, either that or the old gods which have not been specified that much in the game.

 

[GuyNwah]

Although you cannot push an analogy too far, I think the most fitting analogy for the time and place of the Witcher's world is the Baltics of the 13th Century. The Baltic states were divided and pagan, and the outstanding events of this period were:

* The Northern Crusades, in which the Holy Roman Empire and its allies (Poland (already Christian since the 10th C.) and the Christian kingdoms in Scandinavia) sought to impress Roman Catholicism on the Baltic states.

* The rise of the Teutonic Order, which was successful in the campaign against pagan Prussia and became a power that made trouble in Poland and Lithuania until it was defeated in the 15th C.

Without pushing the analogy too far, I suggest that these events are parallel to the Nilfgaard Wars and the rise of the Order of the Flaming Rose. I don't think, however, that any analogy between real-world pagan belief systems and the cults of Freya, Kreve, or Melitele was intended or is possible.

 

[Sirnaq]

Read your journal.

 

[Garrison72]

So...the grand master, what motivates him?

 

[Sirnaq]

So...the grand master, what motivates him?

Vision of ice age.

 

[Garrison72]

Vision of ice age.

A very personal and unsubstantiated vision. Seems familiar to me.

 

[Eri94_user70]

So...the grand master, what motivates him?

A old prophesy concocted with his own personal delusion that he is the savior of the world. Basically take a person let him read a specific verse in the bible, let him believe that, that verse is meant for him and then watch him walk around believing only that verse and the fact that people who don't join him are doomed.

 

[Garrison72]

A old prophesy concocted with his own personal delusion that he is the savior of the world. Basically take a person let him read a specific verse in the bible, let him believe that, that verse is meant for him and then watch him walk around believing only that verse and the fact that people who don't join him are doomed.

How the hell is that NOT commentary on the religious mindset?

 

[ezane]

OK, so a few points

1) The Triple goddess Church feels really Catholic. 1 God with three faces, Priests who use incense, wear funny hats, elaborate robes, don't take wives (officially) and nuns who focus on healing the sick and not sleeping around (offically) extremely similiar looking temples. The Scene in Witcher 2 where the warrior on Foltest side are being blessed by their priest feels very much like Catholic rites. The music and prayers heard in the Church in the first game are all very much like the Catholic church. Its like The Maker from Dragon Age, he isn't a direct parall, but he really does seem to be a stand in for Christainity, though with some more Jewish/Orthidox trends. More to the point, the setting is very much reminicent of real life Poland in the Middle Ages, and that creates an monothestic expectation
2) People keep mentioning religious commentary, but in the Games at least, its pretty much "fanatics are bad, oh look how bad they are" which isn't really a massive condemnation of organized religion. Don't get me wrong, i'm not a Church apoligize, i'm just not really seeing this as anti church, if it is anti church or anti religious, its an extremely clumsy and badly thought out version,.
3) I have not read Warhammer, though i briefly played the Fantasy RPG, and i'm a bit confused by that quote. Religious fanatics are something you don't want, because they are more than willing to upset the balance of power for their faith, and they are very much able to compete with other religious, often because their faith will attract people who are looking for beliefs. Fanatical Muslims, Christains, Jews, Zorastrians and Buhhidists all were able to overthrow regional faiths with their zeal. It doesn't always work, somethings they get wiped out (see the various Jewish Wars) but most of the time they present a real danger to the established status que
4) ok, so the LIonhead Spider group is just kinda sick, got it, that is why nobody likes them.
5) Addressing Juuuhan about the Eternal Flame Cult size, if they are so small, why do they seem so powerful in the first game. They have armed soliders numbering at least a few hundred located in the capital city, they have their own church which is larger than the one in Vizemia, the reveren in the outskirts is able to basically run the entire village without any opposition, the Grandmaster has political power to rival the king, and their priests can be seen walking around the town. Clearly they are a powerful political order, and I don't think any faith would ever tolerate such a powerful rival
6) Are they the same as the Melitele? I mean, they don't seem like it, the melitele are going for this female holy trinity deal, while the Eternal Flame is very much unknowable. Going to the Protestant/Catholic metaphor, the Eternal Flame seem very Lutheran, in that their god is singular, unknowable, inhuman, and isn't depicted directly. I don't see how they are similiar except that both faiths seem to use Christain imagry
7) Well according to the in game documents (Which are of course, bias so maybe i'm wrong) the Eternal Flame seems to view purging non humans as a main tennet of the faith, but maybe the writer of the book was bias)
On the hole Heretic thing with the La Vallets, maybe they are just saying you suck, but as this isn't a religious war, it is an odd phrase. Maybe its just insults the same way they yell "Death to the Sisterfucker", but if this Forefather deal is a seperate faith then....
9) Well he specifically says "The Forefather and the Mother Creatrix" and later refers to them as "the Gods" as in "thank the Gods" so they sound like specific beings. Maybe the Mother Creatrix is Melitele, but who is the Forefather?
10) The Grandmasters motives are....unclear, He wants to move all of the people south to avoid an ice age, but he also wants to wipe out nonhumans, and he wants to create an army of mutants, and he doesn't want to just openly try to start a migration, and he wants to control the drug trade and he.......i'm lost

 

[grindif]

I don't think that different religions in The Witcher 1 represent different segments of Christianity, but that instead they show different aspects of the religion in general, and the way it changes people. Religions and their followers in TW1 are based off real-life groups present in most religions (good-doers, ones who use religion to gain influence, and ones driven insane by their cult)

Detailed explanation:

Spoiler

There are few religious groups in TW1: Melitele Cult, Flaming Rose Order, Eternal Flame Church, and Lionhead Spider Cult. Each of the religions acts in different ways: nurses and priestess from Melitele temple are focused on helping others by caring about them, are peaceful, and nice to everyone (the are good); Flaming Rose Order is focused on helping others by fighting what common people fear (Squirrels and monsters) as a way to build status of heroes, and acquire power (Grand Manster sees himself as a leader of all humanity), they are also nice to outsiders who are nice to Order (Order is somewhat good, but selfish as well); Eternal Flame priest also focuses on gaining power, but does so by spreading prejudice and appealing to the fears of villagers - they are just sheep led by one fanatic (potentially harmful and bad); Lionhead Spider cultists are helping only themselves, live in isolation, are brutal and hostile towards outsiders (they are "evil").

Therefore we have different faces of religion: good-doers, monk-knights, blind followers led by extremist, and crazy cultists. Those faces appear in many religions. Christianity can be used as an example, since there are groups within it that: focus on bringing aid to the ones in need (various orders of monks and nuns), fight for faith to gain influence and respect (knight-monk orders and crusaders), stubborn and prejudiced conservatives lead by power hungry leader (mohair berets in Poland), and there probably are/were some dangerous cults.

All of those different groups show that religion can affect people in different ways, sometimes good sometimes not that good. Melitele's Priestess are the good and selfless ones, Flaming Rose helps others, because by doing so they also help themselves to gain influence, and Eternal Flame and Cultists are the bad ones. I will agree that some elements of cults in TW1 bare a lot o similarity to the current religions. I would not associate any of the groups from the game with the ones in our world, since outside of few inspiration from Christianity there is really not much connection exclusively to the Catholics and Protestants. As to concept of three/thrinity appears in many religions.

I assume that The Forefather and the Mother Creatrix are probably other old gods that belong to the same pantheon as Melitele, but they are gods of different disciplines.

 

[gab961111.59]

I think your all complicating it too much.

 

[green_abobo]

i glanced @ the topic & instantaneously, i thought of meletele. idkwhy.

well theres also veyopattis. i doubt i spelled that right.

what about the vodianoi? strike two.

lion head spiders.

i give up.

 

[pomor]

1) The Triple goddess Church feels really Catholic. 1 God with three faces, Priests who use incense, wear funny hats, elaborate robes, don't take wives (officially) and nuns who focus on healing the sick and not sleeping around

First of all they do sleep around, Melitele does not forbid her priestesses (almost) anything. I don't remeber if it is stated in game, but only woman can be a priest in that cult. Melitele is mostly a fertility godes, women giving birth usualy screem her name. Male priests/monks are from some other cult, in TW2 it is most probably the cult of Creve, Henselt once mentions that during the begining of chapter 2 he killed the priest of Creve.

As long as a cult does not claim that their god is the only one, (just the most important one ) they can more or less tolerate each other. Appearently one can believe both in Creve and Melitele. The extreme example would be the Roman Empire, and how they incorporated new gods into their belief system all the time.

Melitele cult is definitely based on triple godess from Celtic legends, Sapkowski once have writen a non fiction book explaining arturian myth in detail, he seems facinated by it.

Maybe I also should point out that Andrzej Sapkowski is an atheist, and somewhat anticlerical to the boot, it should explain Geralt's general view of the religions.

 

[nocny.945]

(Google Translator)

Reflections on religion in the world of The Witcher does not make sense.

Religion in the books and games are typically leftist character.

This picture does not show the believers. It is only a picture of leftist bias. Believers are portrayed as morons crowd.

Sapkowski is full of moronic prejudices, not only against religion. He is not a nice guy. It should be admitted that usually he can go beyond their own prejudices in what he writes. However, very rarely applies to a religion ..

Therefore, I do not think that Sapkowski is a good writer who could always go over their prejudices. Sapkowski's book is typically primitive leftist bias. Sapkowski is a leftist. Typical. But I - as a rightist - I have no great expectations. I know what they are leftists, and I know what to expect from them. I can appreciate their works what is good.

The Witcher is a simple story for entertainment. That was the intention of the author. That's why the picture is so much simpler.

 

[FoggyFishburne]

(Google Translator)

Reflections on religion in the world of The Witcher does not make sense.

Religion in the books and games are typically leftist character.

This picture does not show the believers. It is only a picture of leftist bias. Believers are portrayed as morons crowd.

Sapkowski is full of moronic prejudices, not only against religion. He is not a nice guy. It should be admitted that usually he can go beyond their own prejudices in what he writes. However, very rarely applies to a religion ..

Therefore, I do not think that Sapkowski is a good writer who could always go over their prejudices. Sapkowski's book is typically primitive leftist bias. Sapkowski is a leftist. Typical. But I - as a rightist - I have no great expectations. I know what they are leftists, and I know what to expect from them. I can appreciate their works what is good.

The Witcher is a simple story for entertainment. That was the intention of the author. That's why the picture is so much simpler.

Religious people are shown to be morons because to be religious you have to be a moron. Sapkowski portrays the truth. Can't take it? Don't read the book and stay away from the games.

I find it hilarious how many times you mention "leftist". I presume you're either an idiot indoctrinated by some retarded religious dogma or you're a fascist who yearns to one day become a politician and rule over the "leftists". Funny post, gave me a good chuckle, thanks!