The boss level

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The boss level

This is a thread about removing the RPG silliness of the "dungeon crawl". Why on earth would the toughest people be at the bottom of the dungeon, it makes no logical sense, after you take out the initial low rent guards you should be immediately faced with waves of the toughest elite guards/soldiers who will spare no expense to expel you from the dungeon (corporate tower), or expel you from this mortal coil, so you fail to breach to the inner sanctum and threaten the lives of their valuable employers and corporate heads. Once you do breach to the inner sanctum you will likely be faced with the few final bodyguards that are doing their level best to extract their VIPS from the location, they may not actually be the toughest fighters (and probably wont be) as their skills would naturally be focused on extraction rather then damage dealing.

One way to take out a CEO, or "the boss", would be to employ the help of multiple squads of fighters (snipers, etc) that would cover all possible known escape routes. One team takes the roof, several sniper teams cover each side of the building to insure "the boss" isn't escaping through a window, several teams cover the ground level and basement level escape routes, and one team (probably yours) is sweeping through the building (not necessarily starting from the ground floor, you could and probably would want to enter the building several floors up through a window, or possibly enter from the roof).

Naturally that would just be one way to succeed, as a possibly better and cheaper way, would be to infiltrate the corporate network through subterfuge (get a job there), become trusted and allowed close to the boss and then take them out one on one. Then naturally the goal would be to get out as quickly as possible now that the jig is up, avoiding all the now alerted corp guards.

Any further thoughts on this? I know we all love the dungeon crawl, but it just doesn't make sense in a cyberpunk world.
 
I know we all love the dungeon crawl, but it just doesn't make sense in a cyberpunk world.

If you already realized that, then why a discussion in the first place?

PS: A true CEO doesn't flee and run away. He awaits you in the last chamber like the boss he is, talking to you for ten minutes before delivering a boss fight by pulling out the two Uzis he had beneath that cool dress.
 
haha, well played, well played!

Yup, That sounds like a CEO to me, CEO's are never cowards that will do anything or throw anyone else under the bus to escape and live another day.
 
If this game is going to be as brutal as the PnP is, then any prolonged gunfight against anyone will lead to bad things. Any assault like that should be the very last resort. Im a fan of the possibility of setting two companies against each other. and then just cleaning out the weakened winner.
 
quite true Prime, which is part of why I think the dungeon crawl game trope is so absurd. Games like this should focus on doing things smart, even a SOLO will plan out his mission so that he has to deal with the least amount of enemies at a time. Doesn't matter if you have the biggest most bad gun, you still want the least amount of people targeting you as possible. A successful long lived SOLO would be like a real life Navy Seal.
 
This discussion came up before a few time, but it hasn't had a dedicated thread.

Personally, I can see a place for various methods of 'boss fights'.

High end Corporate Executives and CEO's are not going to be bad asses. They pay the bad asses. Taking out their bodyguards should be the closest those situations get to 'boss fights'.

Gangs would probably be the other side of that coin, particuarly combat gangs. The biggest, meanest MOFO is going to be the one calling the shots. (But for the love of God, no QTE's and no 'shoot-him-in-the-random-body-part-to-expose-his-weak-point' bullshit!

I would like as many options as possible for these outcomes. If two corps can be coerced into going head to head, then awesome. If I can plant a bomb or something in the CEO's office, awesome. If I can put an claymore mine in the guys bed, then please let me!
 
Great post Chris. Yes, Gangs would be the exception, as they are modeled more after tribal chief systems of the old days (where the strongest, not necessarily the smartest rules).

Ah yes, creative solutions are a must, I despise the one way to win model (deus ex human revolution where you absolutely need the uber implant to take out the bosses at the end of the levels) so silly.

I also despise the MMO dungeon situation where you get to the lowest room and are fighting all the really tough guys, wouldn't they put their tough heavy hitters at the top of their citadel so no one gets that far down? Yes it doesn't make sense for level based rpg's, but for logical skill based cyberpunk worlds it certainly does.
 
I also despise the MMO dungeon situation where you get to the lowest room and are fighting all the really tough guys, wouldn't they put their tough heavy hitters at the top of their citadel so no one gets that far down? Yes it doesn't make sense for level based rpg's, but for logical skill based cyberpunk worlds it certainly does.

Actually, when you form a defensive formation, you hold back your best troops so that they are fresh and can plug the gaps when you need them most. Keeping your toughest goons till last makes a lot of sense, because the fodder can wear down the attacker so that the elites have the least amount of work. You also never show your hand in a game of poker until you have to, you would not want everyone to know just how string/weak your defenses are.
 
good point, however you also wouldn't let someone just run roughshod over all of your cannon fodder, you would send in your elite troops fairly quickly to finish off your enemy. Eventually even cannon fodder can be tough to find and train, and filling out all that HR paperwork is a nightmare hehe

I assume even in the Cyberpunk future, HR is still a big part of corporations.
 
Yep. The front line are not the elite. They are there to delay attackers long enough for the elite guards to descend on them. If things are bad enough backup troops or the cops will hit the attackers from behind. The corps are the big bad of Cyberpunk 2020. If my players try to go directly at a CEO of one of the major corps they would die quickly.
 
Eventually even cannon fodder can be tough to find and train, and filling out all that HR paperwork is a nightmare hehe

I assume even in the Cyberpunk future, HR is still a big part of corporations.

There is an old Quote I heard when researching pirates "There is no end to the bottom of the barrel" Meaning that Cannon fodder or the lowest dregs are easy and plentiful to find and hire. So a mix of Dregs and a few badass "officers" to bolster the ranks. when starting out. then as you get deeper/higher more skilled and more deadly.

I agree that it is a paperwork nightmare but that just keeps people employed, and you wouldn't want those nice hard working paper pushers to loose their jobs now. That would just add to the dregs. though they would hate you and go work for your competition.
 
Good points, I guess it is true now, and probably more true in the Cyberpunk future that the dregs are easy to find. After all isn't that the dream of many of the elite in current times? Eliminate the middle class and good paying jobs so that there is a unlimited supply of cheap labor available. I don't see why that would change in the future.
 
I...guess.

In CP2020, no one gets a dodge roll vs bullets. And although you can dodge knives, it's pretty tough with three guys on you - even the best in the world is only a few points better than a mid-range player. That's before we get into traps, gases, counter-hacks, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that levels in CP2020 don't really exist. A Solo with two years play time can still be killed if the other guy manages to get a clean shot in or the Solo blows his roll to avoid suppressive fire.

Elite goons and players are generally a case of goes first and screws up least and runs like hell when odds are against them. One guy with Rifle 5 and Reflexes 6 and a moderately good FN-RAL poses a SERIOUS threat to nearly any player outside of an FBC or heavily armoured player. And even the 25 SP guys only get 12 SP vs AP/API/DP etc.\

You don't really need bosses.
 
Ah, rehashing old arguments, my favorite. CP2020 and by extension CP2077 is a world of bosses, CEOs, gang leaders and the like, and they didn't become bosses by allowing 'boss fights' to occur. Old age and treachery will win over youth and vigor most any day, especially when the old, treacherous, bastards have tons of money and favors owed to them too.

If you do manage to take down a 'boss' you should want to do it through subterfuge and proxies, otherwise you are the newest and weakest member of the 'boss' club and that is a mighty big bullseye to wear around town.

To be able to take down a 'boss' especially a CEO in cyberpunk you need to either have an equal or greater amount of resources to draw on as the person or organization that you are fighting, or you need to be very lucky, sneaky and good, in that order.

Cyberpunk stories work best when told from the jagged edge of society. Taking down one obstacle just leads to more, and when you finally sit upon the unassailable throne of economic and social power, that is the end of the story. If you are very luck, good and sneaky. Most stories end with you being dead or hiding so far underground that you night as well be dead, for all that you can effect the world. And that is cyberpunk; reaching for the brass ring, knowing that you will most likely fail.

These stories are rarely told with boss battles, most end with the protagonist only slightly better off than they were and the climactic fight is fast, ugly, and usually not noticed by the rest of the world.
 
ah precisely the cyberpunk I enjoy Prod Slash, the small story from the jagged edge of society. Of course to get the full immersion it does need to be possible to reach the highest echelon, just incredibly unlikely. Just because you can doesn't mean that you will or even should. Granted that's against popular game theory, but that's the game I'd like to see.

The great stories are those where someone reaches too high gets burned and ends his life in ignominy cursing his perceived unfair lot in life, drowning his sorrows in cheap liquor.
 
There seems to be a rather myopic bullshit view that combat in Cyberpunk must be some stealthy "hitman-eque thing"... and thats simply not true. Cyberpunk has it's share of hard boiled action and ridiculous cinematics as well, and those are every bit as fun to play.

After all, we have films like Robocop, Nemesis, Dredd, etc....
 
Ridiculous cinematics in Friday Night Firefight? You can play that, if you somehow avoid accidentally killing your PCs. FNFF is pretty lethal, you want to A-Team it , go ahead. Jumping around and two-gunning it aren't worth much vs an FN-RAL..

5 moderately-skilled, lightly-cybered bad guys only need about a 3 to hit you with a rifle at up to 100m. If they autofire, well.

But of course you know this.

I'm not against exciting combat and stealth-combat doesn't work well at all since there isn't any "Stealth" power such as in DnD, but those movies you list up there, which are fun, involve 2 FBC, ( or in Nemesis, so heavily borged he might as well have been an FBC) and goddamn Judge Dredd. Who tends to shoot first and shoot fastest and shoot nearly perfectly. And not be facing people with smartlinked battle rifles or heavy handguns loaded with AP.

The FNFF section itself points out a firefight is dangerous and for good reason. If your Ref is using the stun/shock rules, range rules, autofire/ burst rules, critical damage rules, limb loss....anyway. You know what I mean.

I like PCs to be all daring and shit, but I can't blame them if they want to live.
 
Ridiculous cinematics in Friday Night Firefight? You can play that, if you somehow avoid accidentally killing your PCs. FNFF is pretty lethal, you want to A-Team it , go ahead. Jumping around and two-gunning it aren't worth much vs an FN-RAL..

5 moderately-skilled, lightly-cybered bad guys only need about a 3 to hit you with a rifle at up to 100m. If they autofire, well.

But of course you know this.

I'm not against exciting combat and stealth-combat doesn't work well at all since there isn't any "Stealth" power such as in DnD, but those movies you list up there, which are fun, involve 2 FBC, ( or in Nemesis, so heavily borged he might as well have been an FBC) and goddamn Judge Dredd. Who tends to shoot first and shoot fastest and shoot nearly perfectly. And not be facing people with smartlinked battle rifles or heavy handguns loaded with AP.

The FNFF section itself points out a firefight is dangerous and for good reason. If your Ref is using the stun/shock rules, range rules, autofire/ burst rules, critical damage rules, limb loss....anyway. You know what I mean.

I like PCs to be all daring and shit, but I can't blame them if they want to live.


Oh hell yes it's dangerous... but who dares wins you know mate...

And really just aa little tired of all the "one-true-wayism"...

One thing I noticed about Hitman absolution... Stealth is fucking boring.... killing every motherfucker that breathes because they wronged you... infinitely satisfying...
 
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