What makes an RPG?

[227]

My criterion is still the same - the ability to have an impact on the protagonist's mind, not just the body. A shooter MIGHT also be an RPG, an RPG MIGHT be a shooter.

NOLF lets you choose between snarky responses and polite ones a lot of the time during dialogue, and there's even an entire section of the game that's purely talking. That's really no less than most RPGs can claim these days. It's most definitely a first-person shooter game at heart, though, even despite that and the viability of stealth. Here's a taste of the gameplay: shootershootershooter

What about System Shock / System Shock 2? I think the latter may be next on my playlist. So much history to discover...

It's been a long time since I tried it (and quit early on... because monsters), but I'm pretty sure SS2 has numerical stats that you level up, like strength and your affinity with certain kinds of weapons.

 

[vtmb]

Well, GTAIV had choices. And it was one of the few things I didn't like in that game, as I thought I wasn't given enough information prior to the choice to, well, make the choice. The rewards or consequences weren't well implemented either in my opinion, because there was clearly a good option and a bad option for everything:
- You kill X and you get a friend you can call whenever you like, a new skill and sometimes even a new safehouse. All in one.
- You kill Y and you get a lot of money. In a game where there's nothing to spend money in.

GTA4 was about mixing open world and a cinematic experience. You can easily spot contextual stuff and movie inspired narrative resulting in Niko following 2 scripts: the player's as far as gameplay goes and the one from scripted stuff. Chasing people down looks weird because you can cut whoever's path and yet players just have to get to the point the cutscene is planned to play. In other words these two layers don't support each other as far as choice goes and having multiple endings in any game doesn't mean much when the main character doesn't really exist. It's pretty much taking syndicate ideas and make nothing out of them

 

[wisdom000]

Grand Theft Auto and Saints Row are RPGs now? You people must be taking crazy pills, because your opinions about this subjective topic are objectively wrong. I mean, next you're all going to say that Soul Calibur 3 is an RPG and not just a fighting game with customizable elements.

I stand by my belief that it's all about the numbers. Take strategy RPGs, for example. The only thing that they carry over compared to vanilla strategy games are the numbers and a character progression from weak to strong. This is just math, people: strategy RPG - numbers = normal strategy game, therefore RPG = numbers.

While I disagree completely with your "numbers=rpg" declaration. Even by that token you are wrong. GTA V, Sleeping Dogs, and Saints Row all have these "numbers" you speak of, at least in terms of character progressing at skills and stats.

GTA ain't RPG, 'cause it lack in choices and consequences field. Duuuuuuh.

Um.... GTA 4 and 5 have plenty of choices. GTA V in particular, where every Heist in the game has multiple choices for how to play it out, and choices you make within the game determine the outcome of the story.

 

[Sardukhar]

Um.... GTA 4 and 5 have plenty of choices. GTA V in particular, where every Heist in the game has multiple choices for how to play it out, and choices you make within the game determine the outcome of the story.

I never had that impression. Any more than in, say, Dishonored. GTA 4 and 5 felt very free of consequences to me. I did missions, then I did more missions. Can't recall any major changes from my choices, although I still haven't finished it. The gameplay and missions were just too narrow for me to really feel as if I was in an RPG of any kind. Maybe the lack of dialogue choices...

 

[227]

While I disagree completely with your "numbers=rpg" declaration. Even by that token you are wrong. GTA V, Sleeping Dogs, and Saints Row all have these "numbers" you speak of, at least in terms of character progressing at skills and stats.

Haven't played any of the recent GTA games, but since when have Sleeping Dogs and Saints Row had numbers and stats? SD has skills that you upgrade as your cop and triad scores fill up a numberless meter, but even those skills aren't numerical so much as "reduce the time it takes to steal a car" or new moves. Saints Row is even worse, and the only thing close to numbers in those games is the money you use to upgrade, say, your health, which is represented in equally-vague percentages like "25% more health or damage" that aren't used in any meaningful way, but rather, as abstract indicators for the player that "buying this will make me stronger!"

Totally not the same thing as something like this:

Spoiler

 

[wisdom000]

Haven't played any of the recent GTA games, but since when have Sleeping Dogs and Saints Row had numbers and stats? SD has skills that you upgrade as your cop and triad scores fill up a numberless meter, but even those skills aren't numerical so much as "reduce the time it takes to steal a car" or new moves. Saints Row is even worse, and the only thing close to numbers in those games is the money you use to upgrade, say, your health, which is represented in equally-vague percentages like "25% more health or damage" that aren't used in any meaningful way, but rather, as abstract indicators for the player that "buying this will make me stronger!"

Totally not the same thing as something like this:

Spoiler

The numbers may be invisible, but you are adding value to a stat or skill, there is not difference between a section of a bar and a section of numbers on a scale...

So yeah, totally the same thing.

 

[wisdom000]

I never had that impression. Any more than in, say, Dishonored. GTA 4 and 5 felt very free of consequences to me. I did missions, then I did more missions. Can't recall any major changes from my choices, although I still haven't finished it. The gameplay and missions were just too narrow for me to really feel as if I was in an RPG of any kind. Maybe the lack of dialogue choices...

No video game is going to have the character say what I actually want him to say, and it seems the more money they throw at the problem the further away from it they get, which is why I am for non voiced protagonists.

 

[Sardukhar]

No video game is going to have the character say what I actually want him to say, and it seems the more money they throw at the problem the further away from it they get, which is why I am for non voiced protagonists.

Okay, but a) I think unless you are a GENIUS with dialogue, they will at some point say what you want to say, "Fuck Off, Villain!" is pretty clear and obvious in a lot of situations. What were you gonna do, write them a dissertation?
b) I mean dialogue -choices-. I didn't see a lot of those in GTA or Sleeping Dogs and I don't recall those non-existent choices changing my game play, like in, say, the Witcher.

227...you are just nuts. Numbers do NOT make an RPG. Let's play an RPG without numbers! totally doable. Nobilis is pretty close and you can change the 1-4 range of powers to names easily. Instead of Domain 4 we'll use Domain Maximum.

Hell, all you really need is a sense of "better" or "worse" in terms of character change and chance of success. A GM can just tell you that.

 

[227]

The numbers may be invisible, but you are adding value to a stat or skill

If invisible numbers working behind the scenes counted, then wouldn't Call of Duty and all of those other games where you get more powerful weapons late in the game qualify as RPGs? After all, you can't see it, but those late-game weapons definitely do more damage because of invisible numbers.

Numbers do NOT make an RPG. Let's play an RPG without numbers! totally doable. Nobilis is pretty close and you can change the 1-4 range of powers to names easily. Instead of Domain 4 we'll use Domain Maximum. Hell, all you really need is a sense of "better" or "worse" in terms of character change and chance of success. A GM can just tell you that.

I thought we were focused specifically on defining "RPG" in video game terms? I don't know anything about pen and paper games, but it makes sense that their more flexible and open-ended nature allows them to play by a different set of rules.

And "better or worse with a chance of success" sounds like a lot of interactive novels, yet those aren't automatically considered to be RPGs because "better" isn't quantified outside of the ones that mix in numerical RPG elements.

 

[Sardukhar]

And "better or worse with a chance of success" sounds like a lot of interactive novels, yet those aren't automatically considered to be RPGs because "better" isn't quantified outside of the ones that mix in numerical RPG elements.

No-o..I think just because you quantify a result or can statistically break down some otherwise nebulous value like Drive Car and show it to a player, that hardly makes it role-playing. What part of that is you playing a Role? Are you trying to think like your character because your charisma is 8 but your strength is only 3? Wouldn't, "strong" and "weak" work just as well?

For that matter, if you let someone build their character based on different aptitudes and training categories, then select equipment from a list of which army provided what, then put them in a military setting with multiple plot lines, dialogue choices, alternate methods of success other than shoot it shoot it, ( or even gasp allowed them to fail and STILL continued the story), had their character pick up scars, trauma, allies and history from these choices...

would that version of Call of Duty not be an RPG? Even if you never saw a single number outside things like weapon calibre, phone numbers and whatnot?

Pretty sure it would be, since I have played PnP games like that and the only thing stopping that from happening in video game world is..what?

Witcher was very close. Very few stats or skills, just magic or duelling proficiencies, really. everything else was choice and consequence.

 

[dragonbird]

No-o..I think just because you quantify a result or can statistically break down some otherwise nebulous value like Drive Car and show it to a player, that hardly makes it role-playing.

This, totally. They can have as many numbers crunching away in the background as they want, but they don't tell me about them, and they don't need to let me fine-tune how they'll change during the course of the game.

 

[227]

For that matter, if you let someone build their character based on different aptitudes and training categories, then select equipment from a list of which army provided what, then put them in a military setting with multiple plot lines, dialogue choices, alternate methods of success other than shoot it shoot it, ( or even gasp allowed them to fail and STILL continued the story), had their character pick up scars, trauma, allies and history from these choices...

would that version of Call of Duty not be an RPG? Even if you never saw a single number outside things like weapon calibre, phone numbers and whatnot?

Hm, good question. How would your character's chosen aptitude be represented if gameplay comes down to player skill rather than numbers, though? If you started with, say, a pistol instead of a sniper rifle and ended up finding a sniper rifle later in the game, would it be artificially difficult to use because of your original choice, or would that initial decision be little more than something that determines your starting equipment?

If the latter, I wouldn't call that an RPG so much as an awesome shooter, and if the former, that seems like the kind of game that would necessitate numbers in order to represent to the player why it would be more difficult to use the sniper rifle, probably ending up resembling something like the original Mass Effect because of it. In fact, that sounds like a hypothetical, non-futuristic ME, and I can't imagine that if the leveling screen was taken out of the game that it would still qualify as an RPG.

 

[Sardukhar]

Hm, good question. How would your character's chosen aptitude be represented if gameplay comes down to player skill rather than numbers, though? If you started with, say, a pistol instead of a sniper rifle and ended up finding a sniper rifle later in the game, would it be artificially difficult to use because of your original choice, or would that initial decision be little more than something that determines your starting equipment?.

It would be harder, yeah, unless your starting character took an MOI that included sniper training or at least rifle training. And even if so, you would be slower to aim, reload and so forth than someone with that training would be. This whole pick-up-any-weapon-and-be-great thing s not very role-like. In this case, literally, as it is a military value to put the right personnel with the right skills in the right place at the right time. Demo guy is not assault troop guy and for good reason.
But these numbers would be wholly engine-specific, as would your improvement over time. You'd notice you were getting better because, well, you'd be doing better. The numbers are only there so the software can talk to you, not so you can numerically quantify yourself.

If the latter, I wouldn't call that an RPG so much as an awesome shooter, and if the former, that seems like the kind of game that would necessitate numbers in order to represent to the player why it would be more difficult to use the sniper rifle, probably ending up resembling something like the original Mass Effect because of it. In fact, that sounds like a hypothetical, non-futuristic ME, and I can't imagine that if the leveling screen was taken out of the game that it would still qualify as an RPG.

I think it would absolutely qualify as an RPG - choice, consequence and role are all present.

 

[227]

But these numbers would be wholly engine-specific, as would your improvement over time. You'd notice you were getting better because, well, you'd be doing better.

Sounds like an awesome shooter, but still just a shooter. I remember playing through a FPS awhile back (can't remember which one) where the game became harder the less you died, ramping up the difficulty to always try and challenge you by spawning more enemies who have more health the better you do. What you're suggesting almost sounds like an inverted version of that where you become faster and stronger the further you go, and while it's an interesting idea, I wouldn't personally consider that to be an RPG.

I think it would absolutely qualify as an RPG - choice, consequence and role are all present.

Sticking to the Mass Effect example, think of the jump from the first to the second. Virtually everything remained the same, but the detailed upgrade screen of the original and all of the numbers were replaced by simple upgrade trees. Still, a lot of fans complained that they had turned it into a generic third-person shooter by removing the RPG elements.

You seem to be arguing what RPG should mean, but I'm arguing what it's come to mean to a lot of people after being morphed over time by hardware limitations.

 

[Sardukhar]

Sounds like an awesome shooter, but still just a shooter. I remember playing through a FPS awhile back (can't remember which one) where the game became harder the less you died, ramping up the difficulty to always try and challenge you by spawning more enemies who have more health the better you do. What you're suggesting almost sounds like an inverted version of that where you become faster and stronger the further you go, and while it's an interesting idea, I wouldn't personally consider that to be an RPG.

Okay, why not? Do you consider Witcher 1 and 2 RPGs? The very definition seems clear: role-playing. How is the game i described anything to do with getting just faster or stronger? Or how is that different than what you consider levelling up in an RPG like Baldur's Gate? in my CoD RPG, you could well become weaker and more vulnerable: choice and consequence, remember? That means you have scars, wounds and are vulnerable to betrayal from your allies. Your dialogue and conflict resolve choices could later get you killed or cause you to lose gear, allies and mission choices. Just as in an RPG.

I really don't see where numbers being visible have much to do with it. Role-playing is pretending to be someone else, as much as possible. Doom and CoD aren't, because they are so limited in choice and consequence. you can't sneak around or talk your way out of trouble or hide in a corner or call for backup or make alliances with your enemy, most or all of which you can do in an RPG. Fallout is, because you can play your character according to a personality you choose, with a world that reflects that personality's choices.

You seem to be arguing what RPG should mean, but I'm arguing what it's come to mean to a lot of people after being morphed over time by hardware limitations.

Well, i think that's the topic of the thread. What we consider essential in an RPG. Not what everyone else thinks is an RPG.
I'm trying to differentiate it from non-RPGs like CoD or Minecraft using some clearly delineated examples. What it -does- mean nowadays is pretty contentious and subject to fuzzy data. Lots of people consider Diablo to be an RPG because swords and stats, bro!

One of the clearest definitions for me is, "If you have to ask yourself, what would my character do in this situation, instead of what would I do, that's role-playing."
The more occurrences of this in a game, and the more important those choices are, the more of an RPG it is.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Okay, here's the thing. If you just take stats, then every strategy game ever is also an RPG (each unit has stats, their weapons are effective against certain type of armour, you can upgrade them etc.). So that's bollocks. If you take choice and consequence, then TWD or Spec Ops: The Line are RPGs. So that's inaccurate as well. If you take customization, then Saints Row is an RPG. Again, not the case.

In the broad definition of the term, all video games are RPGs. Even Mario. You are playing the role of a plumber (roleplaying game).If you want to get more technical, you also have level ups and being touched by enemies curses you so you drop a level (think Drain Energy in D&D).

However, the term RPG is used as a genre inside video games, and it is used to described a stat-driven game with inventory management, where you control a single character or a small group. The stats are not hidden, they're actually the focus of the gameplay. How the stats/skills are applied during combat determines if it's an action RPG, a turn-based RPG etc. C&C is irrelevant. If it's there, then we call it a story-driven game. If that story-driven game happens to be an RPG, then it's a story-driven RPG. Most jRPGs lack C&C or character customisation (in terms of looks, gender etc.). Icewind Dale didn't have any C&C. MMORPGs don't have it either. Nor does Diablo. All of those are considered to be part of the RPG genre. GTA, in contrast, is a third-person sandbox action/adventure.

 

[vtmb]

Thank you.
For completeness, some action rpg's don't need stats when it comes to shooter elements but that's it. Because that turns shooting into a complete mess like in the first deus ex. Ofc you' ll find everything else like character progression with the main char starting as an useless shit to develop into the most badass thing ever

 

[Nars]

If you take choice and consequence, then TWD or Spec Ops: The Line are RPGs.

Actually no. It's not like two or three in game C&C will result in RPG. RPG should have emphasis on C&C throughout entire game. Cause it's video game equivalent to GM question: what do you do?

If I could reduce RPG genre to just one component it would be choice and consequence. Lot of it.

E:

In TWD you got choice, but next to zero consequence.

 

[vtmb]

That goes for story driven rpg's.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Actually no. It's not like two or three in game C&C will result in RPG. RPG should have emphasis on C&C throughout entire game. Cause it's video game equivalent to GM question: what do you do?

If I could reduce RPG genre to just one component it would be choice and consequence. Lot of it.

E:

In TWD you got choice, but next to zero consequence.

TWD has no less consequence than DA2 or the ME series did (which, I agree, was very little). And again, there are plenty of games that are RPGs and have 0 C&C.

C&C may be very important to you and me, but that does not make it genre-defining.