Companions

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I don't think there should be something exactly like VATS, but I think there should be some form of planning-phase. Personally, I'd like something based on the original Rainbow Six games. Really intricate maps, assign your team pathways and orders, then execute them in actual gameplay by hitting the assigned "GO"-codes.

I start taking fire from a blacony, I call in that heli-strike I was smart enough to set up. Sneak in the back door, get overwhelmed by a gun-fight, I signal the assault team I put outside the front door to charge in. I have to arrange it ahead of time, but I can make it happen with a key-press.
 
While something similar to VATS should be available IF your REFLEX (and maybe COMBAT SENSE) are (ungodly) high AND you have the right implants (or goggles) as a basic part of the combat system?
No.

That said, a simple pause option and the ability to use character skills (RPG) vice player skills (FPS) is all that's needed.
Make it a game mode setting you have to set when you start a new game (and also multiplayer sessions) that can't be changed unless you start a whole new game.
Say something as simple as tab targeting IF (and only if) you're using the RPG combat system. The FPS crowd don't get the pause or tab targeting options.
Everyone is happy :smiling2:

Ya know ...
Now that I think about it tab targeting activating character skill use in combat, and that option not being available in FPS mode is actually a rather simple, and elegant, solution to the RPG vs FPS combat issue.

Thoughts?
 
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I can see it working. Both having those things be an option you get when you start a new game, and tab for starting those skills in combat.

Although, I would move it away from the Tab key... since the Tab key is one of those keys where when I try to press it I occationally hit another key instead, mostly Caps Lock... so if possible I move most things away from Tab to somewhere else. Where I move it depends on what the Tab is supposed to do in the game. The only times I don't really move things away from Tab is if it is something I almost never use, or only use in situations where I am not in the middle of a fight or something... if there is a chance I have to use it in combat though, then I am most definitively moving it away from Tab.
 
I hope that companions are available from very early on in the game. A thing that bothers me in Fallout 2 for example is that it's too hard for me to start with a character without syphoning a lot of points in combat oriented characteristics and skills in detriment of charisma or intelligence, because you're going to have to travel quite a bit and do some missions before you can hire Sulik for example... and then again the AI was very defective with companions outright skipping turns.

I get that in a post apocalyptic setting you NEED to be able to fight, but a setting like cyberpunk, even though violent, should allow you to play without having to resort to dirtying your hands... at least that much. Money, influence, persuasion, hacking, stunning, stealth... all those should be available.
 
Decatonkeil;n9317581 said:
I hope that companions are available from very early on in the game. A thing that bothers me in Fallout 2 for example is that it's too hard for me to start with a character without syphoning a lot of points in combat oriented characteristics and skills in detriment of charisma or intelligence, because you're going to have to travel quite a bit and do some missions before you can hire Sulik for example... and then again the AI was very defective with companions outright skipping turns.

I get that in a post apocalyptic setting you NEED to be able to fight, but a setting like cyberpunk, even though violent, should allow you to play without having to resort to dirtying your hands... at least that much. Money, influence, persuasion, hacking, stunning, stealth... all those should be available.

That assuming CP2077 will even have companions and not "companions" that only follow you around during some missions like Witcher 3.

 
Lisbeth_Salander;n9317931 said:
That assuming CP2077 will even have companions and not "companions" that only follow you around during some missions like Witcher 3.
Unless they plan to go the Skyrim route, where you can become "The Expert" at every skill in the game, and leader of every guild/organization then I suspect companions will be necessary in CP2077.
The question are ... will they have minds of their own or be simple "Whatever you say Boss" types?
And while combat shouldn't be the answer to every (or even most) problems in the game, it will happen. How much will your companions contribute to it? If the AI is poor you may have no real choice but to become expert in combat (presumably to the detriment of other skills) thus severely limiting your character build options.

 
kofeiiniturpa;n9307791 said:
Allowing measured movement and other actions, giving the AI the same opportunities, etc. And definitely pause the game to assess the situation and options rather than going for that slo-mo shit.

Wait a second, since VATS with slowmotion is kinda harder gameplay wise than the VATS that stops time, then slo-mo is less terrible, unless you want to be chronos the god of time that has no difficulties because you control the godamm time of the universe.

Slowing time should be one of those one time per battle skills that last 4 seconds. Perhaps stoping time shouldn't exist at all, specially considering CDPR is trully going to do that whole action RPG thing.

Oh yeah, but games like Baldurs Gate we could stop time! Seriously? In that game we had to control 4 to six characters simultaniously, that game needed to have a time-stop mechanic. Will we control that many characters in CP2077? If that's the case, then our "companions" should certainly have a good A.I, making the need to control them useless.

It's either a game that gives players ability to control their companions, or a game with a great A.I. Or a game with both, but in this case, stopping time would be important, unless we had a magnificent A.I, but then again, stopping time would make a lot of things easy. My arguments are in deffense of CP2077 being a chalenging game. Dark Souls is a great game.

Suhiira;n9318011 said:
Unless they plan to go the Skyrim route, where you can become "The Expert" at every skill in the game, and leader of every guild/organization then I suspect companions will be necessary in CP2077.

Those are great things. Not making the Main Character "The Expert", and not having slave companions with numb personalities and also not having shitty A.I.

But what if the creation of a Main Character that knows how to do everything, is not caused by shitty/lazy developers, but by the fact that the majority of gamers are attracted to being that kind of character?

Perhaps developers like Bethesda just like to please the majority cause of the money. If that's true, there's a chance of CDPR doing the same.

It's that whole "people want to play video games to escape their reality, so they don't want anything that resembles themselves while still immersing their persona into the game and being able to do things they could never do in real life" thing. Of course CP2077 can do this without using the "Expert" trope.
 
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Lisbeth_Salander;n9318101 said:
Wait a second, since VATS with slowmotion is kinda harder gameplay wise than the VATS that stops time, then slo-mo is less terrible

It's not really easier or harder since there are only three options to pick from: shoot/critically shoot/cancel, it just has motion in it. Add more options and features to make it more comprehensive and it turns more cumbersome unless it pauses the game and lets you assess the situation. Slowing time is a -crutch- for picking headshots in a game that's at the same time too cumbersome and too fast for how cumbersome it is; tactical pause/mode with tactical options based on character aptitude and the situation at hand is a gameplay feature that adds variety and cosideration.

unless you want to be chronos the god of time that has no difficulties because you control the godamm time of the universe.

It's also not "really" stopping time in the gameworld, just like how turnbased combat isn't really representing people patiently waiting their turns while being shot at. That's misunderstanding it.
 
kofeiiniturpa;n9318261 said:
It's also not "really" stopping time in the gameworld, just like how turnbased combat isn't really representing people patiently waiting their turns while being shot at. That's misunderstanding it.

"But it's not really stopping time so it doens't affect the game's difficulty"

Really sir? Come on.

The difficulty aspects that make the game more chalenging do matter, specially considering that CP2077 will be a action RPG with hints that it will focus on players' skills.


That if CDPR wants to please that portion of the gaming community who likes chalenging games, and not the casuals who love being gods AKA "The Expert", that knows how to do everything without any difficulties or chalenges.
 
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RE VATS - Have any of you played Horizon Zero Dawn and how it handled enemies and weak points and time slow and all that. It was really good IMO. I do prefer something more like slow time than an actual pause that lets you select the sport and then gives a % chance you hit it. It's more fun when the challenge is mostly in the players hands (I know we have a difference in taste about that Kofe). Granted it will have to be different since Horizon was bows and arrows and such. The combat in that game was intense, challenging, fairly in depth with enemy weaknesses and weapon types etc, and most importantly fun. Not perfect ... but very good third person combat. Plus it has a lot of conceptual similarities to TW3 so I think it would be realistic to adopt some aspects of it in Red Engine.

If they mixed that (Horizon) with companions a la bioware games, and made it so you were the only one who got spotted for stealth purposes (a bit of a cheat but much easier solution than trying to account for AI stealth), I think that's a realistic balance in TP combat and companion balance.

If it's something else I'll be fine ... I have no demands it be this way and am generally open minded to how these mechanics get implemented. However, this seems like the natural progression of prior CDPR games, mixed with accounting for CP2020 source material play styles & companion reliance, as well as just practical feasibility. It's not perfect, but I think it would be very satisfying for me.
 
Lisbeth_Salander;n9318281 said:
"But it's not really stopping time so it doens't affect the game's difficulty" Really sir? Come on.

That's not what I said.

The part you quoted was responding to the notion about "controlling time", which I've seen so many times in this context that I can't be sure anymore if it's sincere or in jest.

Lisbeth_Salander;n9318281 said:
specially considering that CP2077 will be a action RPG with hints that it will focus on players' skills.

There are also hints about a "tactical mode". What ever it might mean (if anything anymore).

But no point in calling a slow-mo headshot generator a "mode" (nor "tactical" for that matter); for example VATS was not a mode, just a brief magic spell that used mana for extra projectiles and gave extra damage resistance so the player would not die while casting.

I can't even begin to describe how much a conventional slow-mo feature bores me. It's an instant "all excitement gone" showstopper.
 
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Wasn't the Witcher games (or just one of them?) ment to have had some kind of a V.A.T.S like system? I seem to recall having read that somewhere, that there was going to be some kind of V.A.T.S-like system, but was eventually cut for reasons I do not remember (not sure if a reason was given either).

But... if I am remembering this correctly about there maybe having been something V.A.T.S-like in Witcher at one point... then that could partly indicate that CDPR might actually have some interests in creating such kinds of systems... and what better place to do it in then in a videogame based on a pen and paper roleplaying game.
 
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Lisbeth_Salander;n9318101 said:
But what if the creation of a Main Character that knows how to do everything, is not caused by shitty/lazy developers, but by the fact that the majority of gamers are attracted to being that kind of character?

Perhaps developers like Bethesda just like to please the majority cause of the money. If that's true, there's a chance of CDPR doing the same.
Depends, if CDPR is serious about making CP2077 an RPG no single character can "do it all".
If they go the route Skyrim/Fallout 4 did (as opposed to many older Elder Scrolls titles) and make a shooter with lite RPG elements, then yeah, cater to the mass market.


 
Calistarius;n9320711 said:
Wasn't the Witcher games (or just one of them?) ment to have had some kind of a V.A.T.S like system?

Something like that was in talks for Witcher 3. If I remember correctly it was just some simple slow-time-choose-a-limb thing. Can't remember why exactly it was dropped. possibly animation issues or something like that.
 
Splitting the path a bit, but I wouldn't mind a VATS-like system that worked in tandem with "team plays". Meaning, it would slow time to let you set up a double- or triple-team move using your companions. Sort of like leap in the air with your character, hit the "VATS" button, swap to companion 1 and sweep-kick the enemy while drawing a pistol, launching him into the air, swap to the next companion and fire a round that shoots the enemy's weapon out of his hand, then swap back to your original character (now mid-leap), and slam-tackle the disarmed enemy into the ground. You wind up pinning the enemy to the floor, while both companions advance with weapons drawn.

A limited "VATS" that lets you pull off team combos on-the-fly, and certain companions could be more suited to certain combos.
 
While I do like that idea, of a system like that... I am not sure if it fits CP2077... feels a bit to... maybe arcady and/or to JRPG-like?

I do like JRPG's though, JRPG's on console is after all where my love for videogame RPG's started... but I don't think this would work for CP2077.
 
Trouble is it's basically impossible to implement any sort of pause or time slowing function in a multi-player game.
The FPS crowd would hate it and I doubt anyone else would be terribly fond of it.
Imagine a 4-player game where the action suddenly stops or slows every 1-5 seconds? You'd actually be FAR better off with a turn-based game.
 
The problem with companions is companions are a novelty and novelty degrades over time.
The way TW3 did companions, except for the horrible path finding, was perfect.

During certain missions, they would accompany you, have relevant quips about the current situation, engage you in a multi-choice conversation, do something interesting like offer a extra sheild or bonus lightning damage, the mission would end, and then they would go back to leaving you alone, but still be available to talk with somewhere else.

Having companions that follow you everywhere, usually only works well in very controlled environments. Like linear FPS or where the expectation of interaction with NPCs is very low.

In a game where characters have depth, its not possible to demonstrate that depth continually in a open world RPG.
Eventually, they'll say something you've heard before for the hundredth time, and they now seem shallow.

Having them around has lost all its novelty, and if you must drag them along, they are a burden, and a barrier to the suspension of disbelief.
 
NukeTheMoon;n9333311 said:
The way TW3 did companions, except for the horrible path finding

And the way how they were dummies in combat by looking as if fighting but never getting anything done (I sat down to watch Vesemir fight the Griffin from a distance and I'm sure they would've pummeled each other to the worlds end if I hadn't gone in and killed the beast). Same happened with the first WIld Hunt fight, don't remember if it was Triss or someone else who only used a spell to push the enemy away, standing beside her I was safe to go cook something. And there were many more instances where it was clearly the case the companion was only acting and not really fighting.

But I agree. Companions in games like these are better when they're situational.
 
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Coming across companions should be based on trust reputation and luck stats. Trust comes from helping out the person during the time they need help the most. If you help that person out you gain trust from them and if you have high luck stats, you have much higher chance you ended up helping out a worthy companion with high stats and skills. If you have high reputation, they will follow you wherever you go. If your rep is low, they will only assist you in low risk jobs such as a courier. They certainly won't take a bullet for you. That's where loyalty comes in. If their loyalty is low, they end up betraying you. To increase their loyalty, you gotta share the wealth. Give items, consumables, money, whatever is deemed luxury in night city and their loyalty will go up. Actions will speak louder than words. Even romance needs attention. Your loved one will cheat and lie to you if you don't spend quality time with them. Although less severe than a distrustful companion, you still don't want to suffer the consequences. Every action you take is meaningful.
 
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