The random element: randomized enemies and NPCs

[Decatonkeil]

The random element: randomized enemies and NPCs

Cyberpunk 2020 has the quick and dirty (I think that's how they call it) characters generation for NPCs, which would be mostly used for creating the oposition to the player characters. This generates things like the stats and the kinds of weapons and cybernetics that they have. I also think I remember a video that was posted in these forums that showed one of the features of Witcher 2, which I don't know if it remains in Witcher 3, that allowed the CDPR team to have NPCs attire and features generate randomly according to certain patterns: which included combining parts of the clothing like the sleeves with the torso as long as they matched... we also have games like SR2 in which NPCs are made with the same assets that the player can use at character creation and customization... although I think those weren't completely made at random...

Where I want to get is: wouldn't it be cool if NPCs' random generation went a bit beyond and combined both how this is done in CP2020 and in those videogames?

I personally think it would make it more interesting if, for example, we could come across a cop that combines normal regulation police gear with implanted claws... and if you found a ganger with a laser, or a gang that has gotten their hands on an FBC and now one of their OGs has been transplanted into it, that "tells a story". I'd even go further and have these combined with a kind of system that would determine the kind of personality that NPCs have in how they act or react: imagine the aforementioned laser: in the hands of a brash ganger it wouldn't be very effective, but It would be very dangerous because said ganger would like to show off, but if it's in the hands of someone more level headed, the scenario would change.

Also imagine how cool it would be in what pertains to looting bodies of their gear and implants.

Now I want to hear your ideas about the matter. How do you think the random element should be implemented, if at all, in Cyberpunk 2077s NPCs?

 

[moonknightgog]

So...what you mean is ...randomization not only for the NPC "attire" but even for implants (meaning stats, perks etc...)?

 

[Claylex]

That would be cool.

Like say for example I face these gangsters and I'm like "Oh they look pretty harmless, I'll kill them and take their items" but with this NPC random generation thing that even includes cybernetics, these gangsters can possibly have good gear/cybernetics and I could get in for a big surprise.

That would be most interesting.

 

[Suhiira]

Fairly easily done with a puter game. Really a matter of if the designers think that sort of variety in NPCs in needed/worthwhile. After all ANY feature in a game costs time and money to implement; and will need to be debugged ... costing more time and money.

 

[Decatonkeil]

So...what you mean is ...randomization not only for the NPC "attire" but even for implants (meaning stats, perks etc...)?

Exactly that.

And I chose the examples that I chose to illustrate for some reasons: the laser totting streetganger NPC (which should be an extremely rare occurrence, but possible in my opinion) could of course be a nod to Akira, and when he or any other street thug uses it or any other military grade, ridiculous power weapon (although I hear that lasers are a bit underpowered in CP2020, although the mechanic where you can concentrate the power of the battery in fewer but more powerful shots sounds cool) in a reckless way it could also feel a lot like a nod to scenes like those in Robocop where Bodicker's men try their anti-tank rifles for the first time against parked cars and stores. The FBC or power armor totting could be like a nod to something like Megazone 23 or even Chappie... and in all cases it would be true to Gibson saying "the street finds its own uses for things" and would make the player wonder "how the hell did they get their hands on these?", and not in a way that suspends the disbelief so much, especially if the player is familiar with the tropes of the genre, because he or she will understand that maybe these gangers are dangerous enough that they can loot a stash of a small corporate army or even a weapons research facility or cargo shipment... or maybe they have corporate help from someone that maybe has something like a gentrification project in mind like the Old Detroit - Delta City thing from Robocop.

 

[Hoplite_22]

i would say this has been done with the nemesis system in Shadow of Mordor to an extent, it's also the only thing that made that game playable. so fully supported here. specially for gang members that sort of have the same organisation structure as orcs would.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

i would say this has been done with the nemesis system in Shadow of Mordor to an extent, it's also the only thing that made that game playable. so fully supported here. specially for gang members that sort of have the same organisation structure as orcs would.

I hadn't heard about this system. Just looked it up and checked it out. Looks awesome, something like that would be amazing, providing a huge replayability boost.

 

[Claylex]

Exactly that.

And I chose the examples that I chose to illustrate for some reasons: the laser totting streetganger NPC (which should be an extremely rare occurrence, but possible in my opinion) could of course be a nod to Akira, and when he or any other street thug uses it or any other military grade, ridiculous power weapon (although I hear that lasers are a bit underpowered in CP2020, although the mechanic where you can concentrate the power of the battery in fewer but more powerful shots sounds cool) in a reckless way it could also feel a lot like a nod to scenes like those in Robocop where Bodicker's men try their anti-tank rifles for the first time against parked cars and stores. The FBC or power armor totting could be like a nod to something like Megazone 23 or even Chappie... and in all cases it would be true to Gibson saying "the street finds its own uses for things" and would make the player wonder "how the hell did they get their hands on these?", and not in a way that suspends the disbelief so much, especially if the player is familiar with the tropes of the genre, because he or she will understand that maybe these gangers are dangerous enough that they can loot a stash of a small corporate army or even a weapons research facility or cargo shipment... or maybe they have corporate help from someone that maybe has something like a gentrification project in mind like the Old Detroit - Delta City thing from Robocop.

Yeah I remember watching Robocop 3 and how the corporates were getting gangsters and crazys into their organization to get rid of the cops and how they dealt with weapons and fought in their own ways.

Pretty cool.

Also thanks for friending me.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

The randomness should also apply to enemies' spawn rate and location, since after exploring the same area twice it gets really predictable to what will happen next and who you'll confront.

 

[Eltyris]

They could use some kind of algorythm randomization system to give "life" and backstory to random characters on the streets...similar to scanning function in Satellite Reign mixed with something similar to Nemesis system checks.
After a certain period, game "remembers" result and generates a respective action/event based on generated profile. This would trick the player and add "character" to masses of regular, non descript npcs we have in games like this (that obviously exist exclusively for the sake of creating that feel of dynamic, massive metropolis).

In gameplay/enemies, it can actually be done similar to MGSV...game secretly keeping tabs of player's most used weapon types/implants/etc and after a certain period ( this could depend on difficulty) changing their equipment...enhancing them with bulletproof vests, termal goggles, gas masks, etc.

 

[RLKing1969]

How about running into the clones/ "brats" of the original C.P 2020 "Arch heroes": Morgan Blackhand, Johnny Silverhand, etc? A "Cyberpunk Revolution" posergangs, perhaps?

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

The ramdomization element is what makes the game feel unscripted. In other words, the ramdomness is what gives life to the game.

The non repetition during world exploration is important to replayability.

When everything in the world exploration is scripted to happen only once, or when it repeats it does exactly the same way over and over again (the same amount of enemies spawning in the same location over and over again for example), it makes it hard for players to explore the world more than once.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Randomness is indeed an excellent tool to retain freshness and intrigue through unpredictability.

It can also go far beyond NPC creation (looks, stats, cybergear, loot).

Know those uninteractable doors all over cities in other games? Create a mechanic that lets you interact with them and randomizes what's inside through certain parameters (based on location and building at hand).

- Design a cursor mechanic to - for e.g. - right click on the door and get a few options through a dropdown menu.

- One being the option to evesdrop. If his perception or awareness/notice he migh hear muffled sounds drawn randomly from a pool dedicated to the area. TV being watched, a fighting couple, a couple having sex, someone on the phone, phone ringing but nobody answers, conversation about something relevant to your mission, a conversation you can't make out what it is about, or nothing. Already with a small thing like that a lot of life was added to an otherwise lifeless image of a door.

- Another being the option to enter and examine the apartment through any of the following checks that fit with the context: Lockpicking, Strenght feat, hacking, item (key, keycard, crowbar to help with Strenght feat...). Or the door might even be left unlocked and you just open it. The insides having been randomly drawn from a dedicated pool similiarly with the eavesdropping. Then... Not rendering the room and making it physical, but abstracting it to a window with text prompts: Investigate, search for valuables, vandalize. All self evident, investigating for information (e.g. you might find a hidden safe with a keen eyed character, or some hard evidence about a corporate moneylaundering, or nothing), searching for stuff to steal and use/sell, vandalizing for fun (few options given like break everything, soil the place -- possibility to find a mention of it in a newspaper). And after breaking and entering the appearance of the law would be more likely with each passing minute (though also depending on if you've been quiet or loud).

- Or you could knock on the door and possibly get a small(!) conversation. Maybe you like being a fraud and ask money for charity, maybe you rob the poor bastard at gunpoint when he opens the door (but he might also fight back and the event might end up in you standing in the rain pummeled and possibly having lost some items). This too depicted in abstract.

Lots of little bits of unscripted storytelling through fairly simple gameplay where the characerbuild is the key.

Same could be applied to random pedestrians in some degree, though it would probably be more expensive to produce (with animations and sound).

But...
- Similiar dropdown menu as before by right clicking on an NPC.

- Options being something like pickpocket, pick a fight, rob, chat, persuade.

- Pickpocket would check the characters skill during an animation where the PC approaches the NPC from behind and slightly bumbs to him or if you come from frontside, the PC might engage the NPC in a physical conversation for a brief moment. You might succeed, but the what you get would be randomized (and it might also be nothing); and you might also fail, in which case yu might have to fight the guy or he runs away. And police intervention is always possible.

- Pick a fight is self explanatory (why would you do it? For fun, distracting guards or nearby police, gather attention from other bystanders).

- Rob is also selfexplanatory. You might want to have something suitable equipped in a quickslot (like a knife) and the game would put the PC and the NPC in a brief animation sequence (checking your intimidation level plus your tool of trade against the NPC) and you might get a little bonus cash, a fight in your hands or police on your tail.

- Chat to possibly get info about something interesting nearby (like the guy might've seen a body being dumped in the trash two blocks down -- you might find a little something there).

- Persuade to get a temporary follower for a couple of minutes (though not everyone is willing to fight mobs with you, they run away and live to see another day).


And the same could once again be applied to certain items you pass through. Parked cars, firehydrants, lampposts, phonebooths....

Nothing major, just little stuff like that adding a lot of systemic interest and interactivity to the playingfield. And keeping it mostly randomized so that every time you pass "this place", it's different in some way.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Cyberpunk 2020 has the quick and dirty (I think that's how they call it) characters generation for NPCs, which would be mostly used for creating the oposition to the player characters. This generates things like the stats and the kinds of weapons and cybernetics that they have. I also think I remember a video that was posted in these forums that showed one of the features of Witcher 2, which I don't know if it remains in Witcher 3, that allowed the CDPR team to have NPCs attire and features generate randomly according to certain patterns: which included combining parts of the clothing like the sleeves with the torso as long as they matched... we also have games like SR2 in which NPCs are made with the same assets that the player can use at character creation and customization... although I think those weren't completely made at random...

Where I want to get is: wouldn't it be cool if NPCs' random generation went a bit beyond and combined both how this is done in CP2020 and in those videogames?

I haven't played CP2020, but I can simply imagine the man who created it did a lot of testing through trial and error, to determine what was good randomized and what was not.

Randomization is a double edge sword. You would think that it creates unique situations, and you would be right. However, when too much content is randomized, it gives the feeling that everything isn't actually "special", it's just random.

In my opinion when it comes to randomized variables, it's better to actually have groups of predefined setups that are randomly chosen from, as opposed to truly randomizing every variable in a NPC, loot box, enemy weapons, etc.

The reason is balancing and testing.
Ultimately, the developer should be able to test and balance the gameplay, including any possible situations that can occur in the game.
Having defined variable "sets" for a mission, could include different enemy NPC layouts, but having defined "sets" means they all can be tested, while true randomize would be untested because it cant be tested, with all the problems that can generally cause.

Think about the number of times you've had Roach randomly spawn behind a group of trees, behind a impassible fence, on top of a unclimbable hill.
Its not immersive at all. Or interesting.
Now take that problem, and start applying it to NPC spawn locations, weapon chest, etc. And that's just one example of randomness with placement, it gets considerable more difficult when you starting dealing with weapon/skill/loot combinations of those NPCs.

 

[Suhiira]

In CP2020 the randomized NPC are primarily appearance, some weapons, some cyberware, and a couple skills.
Nothing too extensive.

 

[mcflurry928]

It'd be great to see random NPCs become your companion if you decide to help them out. Impromptu companions that are rolled by your own luck stats should have either useful or useless stats and skils. Well, not completely useless. You could still use them as a courier or something along those lines. Companions shouldn't be predetermined at all. It should be given as a reward for allocating into luck stat and for taking the effort and the time to recruit them into your group. Companions can turn RPGs into a cakewalk, but that shouldn't be the case if you're alone. In order to have high chance of success, time should be spent into recruiting companions at the cost of sharing your wealth to make them stay loyal to you. Luck stats should not only be when it comes to looting, but also finding useful companions to match your skills and stats. Nothing should be taken for granted. You gotta work to make your way up.

I really do hope CDPR uses random generator techs for companions and enemies alike to change the monotone atmosphere of story based RPGs where things are predetermined.

 

[0248991]

Hi,
it could be quite hard to do this right;
because if you would generate NPC using some patterns - like location, social status, role, attributes, or really anything;
you may end up with very little combinations - e.g. :
Policeman will always wear same uniform, probably same weapon, will have same AI,...

Basically, by generating you are saying that NPC is not what it is - and the more of combinations of generation - the more "wrong" combinations you could get.

But, of course, it sounds cool to imagine bandits in pink dress shooting lasers on all chickens nearby