Itemization in this game

[Eltyris]

Itemization in this game

Looking at Cyberpunk's massive variety of items, this is honestly my No1 concern here...Witcher III itemization, despite being fairly simplistic, ( imo) was disjointed unclear mess.

Too many items with little relevant difference (or use) next to one another, narrowing down most choices to basic stat difference ( like with dps).
Crafting system bloated with too many and often nonsensical ( monster brain for crafting a sword...wut?) requirements.
Massive quantity of items randomly placed in locations without any real context behind it.
Completely linear equipment scaling contrasting more exploration based gameplay of open world: having negative impact on gameplay ( balance) and causing even legendary "relics" to be quickly surpassed by random loot.
Gating items with unintuitive restrictions ( player "level"), which would often clash with other systems ( by the time you reach the requirement, you will likely find something better).

Overall, in my opinion, itemization was something closer to that of mini MMO, but without having anywhere near as wide mechanics and number of options available.

What makes an item "memorable"/valuable? In my opinion, it's a combination of things...process of acquiring it ( difficulty, origin and value: good example Flail of Ages from BG II), where you find it, how it works with other systems( crafting/upgrade/progression), how it's properties impact how you play,

What I would want to see here...tldr: completely the opposite, of what they did previously.

Design weapons and equipment with greater differential between one another, so it's less "which has better basic stats ( dps/armor/etc)" and more "which offers more advantage in a given situation" ( whip: AoE attack, dagger: high speed and backstab, hammer: massive armor penetration, etc)

Instead of crafting/upgrade system consisting of series of linear +++ improvements, use it to offer unique, gameplay changing properties ( where applicable) on equipment.

Handplaced, concealed/rare objects in environment, designed to reward exploration instead of dumping massive amount of junk in "loot chests" across the world..."AAA" developers always overlook the importance of scarcity to give the player sense of reward.

Place them in a proper context, where they make sense in the world, use it to complement (environmental) storytelling ( this is good example: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Survivalist_hidden_cache). (Unique items should have their own mini story to go with it).

Upgrade system designed to extend weapon and armor balancing...the more "unique"/high "tier" item is, the harder and less flexible it is to upgrade. ( on the other hand, standard equipment should offset having lower basic stats, with easier and more rich variety of options).

Keep it simple, intuitive and easy to keep track of...no need for massive amount of diagrams, crafting components, etc. Tone down all the pointless busywork.

No illogical requirements to equip items to keep the game "balanced"...if a player isn't strong enough, the game should directly indicate this with how it plays: recoil, crosshair stability, etc.

I can't think of anything else at the moment, but I'm hoping they will fully re-evaluate their approach ( and why it was criticized) to this, than go with old system "done better".

 

[walkingdarkly]

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see how CDPR handles items and item management for this game. For the pnp games the amount of stuff you could own and even carry just depended on the kind of character sheet you had. That space ranged from 6 to nearly 20 lines. And I think for pnp what you could carry was based on realistic measures, like you couldn't carry around 10 to 50 guns on you, though I did have a GM that tended to ignore that andh the same guy let a player do a full borg conversion into Optimus Prime.

And to add it'll be interesting to see how they'll handle experience and "levels" because Cyberpunk doesn't have either in the traditional sense, this is in consideration to weapons like you said. Like you should be able to use any gun off the bat but how well you handle that weapon should depend on what your skill level is for it. Even certain GTA games did this (GTA: San Andreas mainly), where your shot were wild and inaccurate but as you leveled(yes leveled) your gun skills your shot became more accurate and at one point you could dual wield small guns.

 

[Sirenapples]

Yeah it's going to be interesting to see how CDPR handles items and item management for this game. For the pnp games the amount of stuff you could own and even carry just depended on the kind of character sheet you had. That space ranged from 6 to nearly 20 lines. And I think for pnp what you could carry was based on realistic measures, like you couldn't carry around 10 to 50 guns on you, though I did have a GM that tended to ignore that andh the same guy let a player do a full borg conversion into Optimus Prime.

And to add it'll be interesting to see how they'll handle experience and "levels" because Cyberpunk doesn't have either in the traditional sense, this is in consideration to weapons like you said. Like you should be able to use any gun off the bat but how well you handle that weapon should depend on what your skill level is for it. Even certain GTA games did this (GTA: San Andreas mainly), where your shot were wild and inaccurate but as you leveled(yes leveled) your gun skills your shot became more accurate and at one point you could dual wield small guns.

I wouldn't mind if there weren't levels at all, but you could progress through acquiring influence, wealth, skills, ect. If you find any weapon, you can pick it up and attempt to use it whether 20 hours in or you happened to stumble across it in your first hour.

Attempt, being the operative word. Some tech might be too alien / intuitive to understand. Some weapons might have significant kick back or quirks to them. It'd be neat if Animations played a part, like if you had low gun skills your handling of firearms might be poor and show in the animations, but then the animations would reflect your eventual mastery (if you chose to develop it). For example if there's a megalaser heavy weapon sort of shtick, you might handle it clumsily and fire it without knowing what you're doing resulting in dropping the weapon and/or taking damage from the force of firing it, but then when you learn to handle it it might show you properly bracing for it (Perhaps depending on Strength as well) and flicking switches on the side to properly calibrate the device before firing.

 

[Suhiira]

Looking at Cyberpunk's massive variety of items, this is honestly my No1 concern here...Witcher III itemization, despite being fairly simplistic, ( imo) was disjointed unclear mess.
Too many items with little relevant difference (or use) next to one another, narrowing down most choices to basic stat difference ( like with dps).
Crafting system bloated with too many and often nonsensical ( monster brain for crafting a sword...wut?) requirements.

Well, assuming CDPR used CP2020 items the differences in items will be about the same.
But let's face it, look at the CP2020 item category "Medium Handguns", they are all pretty much the same ... amazingly enough just like they are in real life

Same goes for the "crafting system", CDPR has CP2020 to light the way.

Gating items with unintuitive restrictions ( player "level"), which would often clash with other systems ( by the time you reach the requirement, you will likely find something better).

Overall, in my opinion, itemization was something closer to that of mini MMO, but without having anywhere near as wide mechanics and number of options available.

Again, assuming CDPR uses CP2020 as their basis, character and item levels are a non-issue as neither exist in CP2020.

Personally I've always found the entire concept of level restrictions on items absurd in the extreme.
If you want to restrict when a players character can get their hands on an item place it somewhere they won't (reasonably) be able to get to till later in the game.

Design weapons and equipment with greater differential between one another, so it's less "which has better basic stats ( dps/armor/etc)" and more "which offers more advantage in a given situation" ( whip: AoE attack, dagger: high speed and backstab, hammer: massive armor penetration, etc)

Instead of crafting/upgrade system consisting of series of linear +++ improvements, use it to offer unique, gameplay changing properties ( where applicable) on equipment.

Again, a mid caliber handgun is a mid caliber handgun is a mid caliber handgun.
Adding some (frankly unrealistic) special ability to one just to make it unique is exactly the sort of crap I'd expect from an MMO and has no place in CP2077.

 

[RLKing1969]

I think the idea should be kept as realistic as possible. By that, I mean think about what a reasonable, normal person could and would carry on their person. Add to this dynamic the fact that, by it's very nature, the cyberpunk society is, by and large, an armed one and use a couple of real life examples of occupations who "Pack heat" on a regular basis: A soldier and a cop. (The first example, I am intimately familiar with. I was in the U.S Army for 6 years. The second, I am only familiar with on a second hand basis as I have several acquaintances who represent the law enforcement community.) In the example of an average soldier, a "Basic load" would be composed of an assault rifle (perhaps with an under barrel grenade launcher, perhaps not.), six extra magazines of ammo (Typically 20 or 30 rounds each), 6 grenades, a bayonette/survival knife and approximately six grenades (exact number and type vary depending on mission and the like) and perhaps a sidearm ( for officers) and MAYBE a crew served weapon such as a S.A.W (Squad Automatic Weapon for you civilians out there. In such a case, your rifle is probably either being carried by a buddy or slung across your shoulder.). any other, extemporaneous gear (within reason) could be carried in a rucksack, though these are usually stowed/stashed before any SERIOUS action is undertaken. Why? Because the additional gear is too bloody heavy to be lugged around, especially when your on the run. Most of the time, unless you REALLY expect some serious excrement to hit the oscillator, the heavier crap like RPG's and the like are kept close at hand (In a vehicle, perhaps?), but not generally lugged around. As far as armor, a flack vest, but only if you are expecting serious doo-doo to occur. A cop gears up in a similar way. A sidearm, a truncheon, some extra ammo, perhaps a "holdout" and the "heavy artillery" is locked in the cruiser. (Yes, SWAT is an exception, but consider that they usually only get called when the Shit IS going or inevitably WILL go down.). Your average "civvie" wont be used to lugging around all of that crap and will, more than likely, pack as lightly as they think they can get away with. As far as non weapon items? Ask the question: Does the character have a gym back, pack or purse? If not, what can they carry in hand or in their pockets? The rest of the crap will have to be stashed somewhere, left at home or in the trunk. As a good general rule: " One mag in the gun and two extras in the socks."

 

[Suhiira]

But a soldier (retired USMC here) doesn't carry that basic load unless they're in combat. It's not something you walk the streets with.

As to the cop (yeah, I was also a cop for 12 years) it depends. Are you a Patrol Officer? SWAT? Detective? Each carries different equipment.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

I want it to be a really difficult decision when you choose what to bring on a mission (or shopping.) There need to be tradeoffs for EVERYTHING, because that will inevitably bring out people's personalities and make it so you don't see 15 people with the same weapon standing on a corner. And you MUST be able to attempt to use anything. I loved how the first Fable did this, you could wield a huge axe no matter your strength level, but you'd be stuck dragging it along the ground and swinging it took forever and was generally ineffective if you didn't have the gusto you needed. I mean, how are you supposed to get experience with something unless you're allowed to do it? Along the same line of thought, it's always pissed me off when a job application for an ENTRY level position requires experience. How the hell does one get the experience required for the job if you can't get the job to get the experience that the job requires? Just stupid

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Personally I've always found the entire concept of level restrictions on items absurd in the extreme.
If you want to restrict when a players character can get their hands on an item place it somewhere they won't (reasonably) be able to get to till later in the game.

Agreed. The exception being that if you have 0 skill, your character is simply ignorant in the use of the weapon (does not know how to).

Now, I’m not opposed to some soft (non-preventing) restrictions where, for example, a heavier or more technical weapon needs higher skill to be used properly (and the usage penalties are heavy enough to seriously encourage using ”lesser” weapon), I’d even endorse that, but I think the pricetag and availability of better equipement should be the first things to start limiting the obtaining and use of ”the better” gear.

 

[Suhiira]

Agreed. The exception being that if you have 0 skill, your character is simply ignorant in the use of the weapon (does not know how to).

Now, I’m not opposed to some soft (non-preventing) restrictions where, for example, a heavier or more technical weapon needs higher skill to be used properly (and the usage penalties are heavy enough to seriously encourage using ”lesser” weapon), I’d even endorse that, but I think the pricetag and availability of better equipement should be the first things to start limiting the obtaining and use of ”the better” gear.

I'd be OK with some skill level restrictions on gear.
NOT that you couldn't use it at zero skill, but your chances of using it correctly are ... well ... zero. So you may break it and will have a MUCH MUCH higher then normal chance of a malfunction.

 

[4meg]

I'd be OK with some skill level restrictions on gear.
NOT that you couldn't use it at zero skill, but your chances of using it correctly are ... well ... zero. So you may break it and will have a MUCH MUCH higher then normal chance of a malfunction.

Plus a very good chance you may injure or kill either yourself or an ally I would think.

 

[SigilFey]

I want it to be a really difficult decision when you choose what to bring on a mission (or shopping.) There need to be tradeoffs for EVERYTHING, because that will inevitably bring out people's personalities and make it so you don't see 15 people with the same weapon standing on a corner.

Agreed! In a sense, I don't care for the "habit" of making a thousand different versions of a weapon that slowly ramp up in power as I play. I, mean...a sword is a sword. Yes, there are drastically different techniques that can be used in the forging process...the shape of the blade...the type of cross-section...the balance point...the type of guard... But most of these considerations are such tiny nuances that a game can't possibly imitate them meaningfully. Instead, we get a "normal sword" that causes really bad paper-cuts, a "level 10" sword that looks shinier and causes much more damage for some reason, and eventually a "level 50" sword that's got spikes and red, glow-y stuff all over it and can kill rhinos in one hit. It's good system for constant reward and ever increasing power, but I don't think it fits well into immersive game design.

Conversely, when games go to excruciating length to create weapons with, like, +/- 0.15 points of damage difference between each other...what's the point, really?

I prefer weapons to be an extension of character. For example, I would argue that all "pistols" in Cyberpunk should inherently be exactly the same...but they could be aesthetically diverse. The pistols don't get better. I get better with pistols. In that regard, my character becomes sort of defined by his pistol. And I don't want to give that pistol up.

I also loved a mod that I played for (I think) Temple of Elemental Evil (yes, I actually played that...[...no, I never finished it]). It introduced "weapon affinity"...which I've loved forever more. Basically, the longer I used one particular weapon, the better and better it became. And I don't mean a "type of weapon", I mean that exact, particular weapon. So, as I used a particular shortsword, then I would gain bonuses over time, but only for that, exact shortsword. I'd get a +1 to attack at level 2, +1 to maximum damage at level 3, +1 to minimum damage at level 4, an extra attack every 3 rounds at level 5...you get the idea, and it just reflected my character's intimate familiarity with that one, unique weapon. ("This is my rifle! There are many like it, but this one is mine...!" If I remember right, it was actually a hatchet that my ranger used in his off-hand that I kept forever. And it was eventually eaten by a giant frog. I was devastated!)

I think a system like that would be really cool.

And you MUST be able to attempt to use anything. I loved how the first Fable did this, you could wield a huge axe no matter your strength level, but you'd be stuck dragging it along the ground and swinging it took forever and was generally ineffective if you didn't have the gusto you needed.

Agreed. The exception being that if you have 0 skill, your character is simply ignorant in the use of the weapon (does not know how to).

I think this should be the case. More than just camera-wobble for aiming, too. Like, watching a trained character pull a mean-looking assault weapon off his shoulder: he automatically "flicks" open the shoulder-stock, presses a button, ratchets a lever, there's a sound of a serious "powering up", the chamber begins to glow with a faint light, he aims, and -- CHINGA-CHENGA-CHONGA-CHUNGA-CHANG! -- serious lead heading downrange.

If an inexperienced character grabs the weapon...there's a mini-game or something where you have to manually ready the weapon to fire. They have to fiddle with the stock to get it out...they press one of the buttons, and the ammo clip slips free...jam the clip back in and push the other one and the lever releases...button-mashing to get the lever cranked (Man, that's hard!)...power-up sound starts...then fizzles...(What the hell did I...!?)...

...tosses the assault weapon aside and pulls out a pistol.

 

[Suhiira]

If an inexperienced character grabs the weapon...there's a mini-game or something where you have to manually ready the weapon to fire. They have to fiddle with the stock to get it out...they press one of the buttons, and the ammo clip slips free...jam the clip back in and push the other one and the lever releases...button-mashing to get the lever cranked (Man, that's hard!)...power-up sound starts...then fizzles...(What the hell did I...!?)...

...tosses the assault weapon aside and pulls out a pistol.

I like the way you think.
Not sure implementing this for every item in a game would be practical, but I like the concept.

The point is, weapons/ammo don't change. OK, various types of 9mm's hold more/less ammo, may have an inherent (dis)advantage in accuracy (based on barrel length and manufacturing quality), are more/less bulky (concealment), and other minor factors. But the 9x19mm round they fire is the exact same round for each, and unless it's a really short barrel (i.e. derringer size) it's going to do the same damage regardless of what fires it.

P.S.
And for those curious, the reason a derringer length barrel is an issue is because such a short barrel means all the propellant (i.e. gunpowder) hasn't burned when the projectile (i.e. bullet) leaves the end of the barrel, thus it hasn't achieved it's maximum velocity. And Einstein said it best, E=MC[SUP]2[/SUP].

P.P.S.S.
It's REALLY easy to look up the number of joules of energy every currently existing ammo type imparts on it's target, all you need to do is convert that into the damage system of your choice, apply some factors for hollow point (reduced penetration, increased damage) or armor piercing (increased penetration, reduced damage) ammo, and walla!

 

[SigilFey]

I like the way you think.
Not sure implementing this for every item in a game would be practical, but I like the concept.

The point is, weapons/ammo don't change. OK, various types of 9mm's hold more/less ammo, may have an inherent (dis)advantage in accuracy (based on barrel length and manufacturing quality), are more/less bulky (concealment), and other minor factors. But the 9x19mm round they fire is the exact same round for each, and unless it's a really short barrel (i.e. derringer size) it's going to do the same damage regardless of what fires it.

P.S.
And for those curious, the reason a derringer length barrel is an issue is because such a short barrel means all the propellant (i.e. gunpowder) hasn't burned when the projectile (i.e. bullet) leaves the end of the barrel, thus it hasn't achieved it's maximum velocity. And Einstein said it best, E=MC[sup]2[/sup].

I'm partially playing. But whenever the creative process is involved, I'm a strong proponent of, "It's always easier to pull back than push ahead."

But if I'm to be 100% serious about it, your argument about ammo above is exactly the crux. Performance, range, and precision are all effected by the gun itself, but the ammo is what determines what will happen to the target if they're hit. For the sake of gameplay, I'd like to see combat "difficulty" determined by something other than how much damage the player can give vs. receive. Ideally, I'd prefer the bulk of the difficulty to derive mostly from how familiar I am with my chosen weapon, rather than "dice rolls" or "hitpoint pools".

 

[Suhiira]

Dual post ...

 

[Rawls]

I would definitely agree with the main thrust of the OP. I would say crafting in general is one of the two things CDPR can greatly improve on (the other being choices and consequences from one game to the next in a series).

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Crafting might work if it wasn't about scavenging tons of trash to make a weapon you will buy or loot soon enough anyway.

A limited set of very special items for unique purpose and for which you have to buy the parts to build and eventually upgrade to their final form.

And specifically "buy" the parts, not scavenge from trash and corpses. You need to acquire the funds and find the retailer and build up the skill to even craft the item. Or perhaps, if you search carefully enough, you can find a specialist NPC that can craft for you for not at all modest fee to not make it a cheap pass compared to the Techie who needs the skill and all (and craft better than the PC ever could... for being a "specialist" who's dedicated his life for the job).

 

[Suhiira]

Yeah, as much as I miss my Warden, that's one thing Dragon Age got right. Those games are a series of related events and your actions in previous game have consequence.

 

[RLKing1969]

But a soldier (retired USMC here) doesn't carry that basic load unless they're in combat. It's not something you walk the streets with.

As to the cop (yeah, I was also a cop for 12 years) it depends. Are you a Patrol Officer? SWAT? Detective? Each carries different equipment.

I was using this as an analogy. Many games get bloody ridiculous on what a character can and does carry on a regular basis. I was using this to illustrate the point that a basic load should be as light as possible and that most folks won't be carrying some of the larger pieces in their potential inventory. I was attempting to provide a logical and manageable "load plan" to try and suggest that most folks, even those who are expecting major crapola, wouldn't carry enough ordinance to equip a small army. I fully realize that there are variances as far as police go and the average G.I won't be carrying anything unless combat ensues. I was simply trying to illustrate a point...No more, no less. Thank you for your service, btw , from one vet to another.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

snip- Temple of Elemental Evil - snip

!!!!! I thought I was the only person in the world who played that! You just hit me with a mighty crashing tsunami of nostalgia... Anyways, yep. pistols are pistols, and a .44 is a .44 ( a couple details notwithstanding.) I like big handguns, and if someone chooses a large caliber, there should be upsides and downsides to it. Yeah, S&W 500 Magnum will mess about anything's day up, but (from experience here) it sucks to shoot more than a few rounds from it unless you have LOADS of practice to keep your muscles from becoming twitchy and getting limpwristed. That's alot of wear and tear on your own body (i guess having chrome arms would help with that, though)

 

[Suhiira]

I was using this as an analogy. Many games get bloody ridiculous on what a character can and does carry on a regular basis. I was using this to illustrate the point that a basic load should be as light as possible and that most folks won't be carrying some of the larger pieces in their potential inventory. I was attempting to provide a logical and manageable "load plan" to try and suggest that most folks, even those who are expecting major crapola, wouldn't carry enough ordinance to equip a small army. I fully realize that there are variances as far as police go and the average G.I won't be carrying anything unless combat ensues. I was simply trying to illustrate a point...No more, no less. Thank you for your service, btw , from one vet to another.

Yeah, I'd love to see realistic carry and encumbrance penalties in CP2077.

Thanks, and right back at ya!
*salute*

!!!!! I thought I was the only person in the world who played that! You just hit me with a mighty crashing tsunami of nostalgia... Anyways, yep. pistols are pistols, and a .44 is a .44 ( a couple details notwithstanding.) I like big handguns, and if someone chooses a large caliber, there should be upsides and downsides to it. Yeah, S&W 500 Magnum will mess about anything's day up, but (from experience here) it sucks to shoot more than a few rounds from it unless you have LOADS of practice to keep your muscles from becoming twitchy and getting limpwristed. That's alot of wear and tear on your own body (i guess having chrome arms would help with that, though)

I played Temple of EE ... when it first came out ... is it fixed and playable now?

This is one of the reasons I stick to my .357 ... also practice ammo is MUCH cheaper, just use .38s.