that... grind.

[tropit9]

that... grind.

do you like grind? do you grind is nice? i don't. i recently quit shadow of war because of a bugs but also the game is grindy as fuck. it makes me think just how well cdpr games thus far were designed: minimum grind, maximum quest exp. want to become bad ass fine, explore off the beaten path, talk to more characters.

don't just rid the continent of drowners, (at least get paid for it) see what lurks is in this old tower, or talk to that shady guy, he looks intersting.

never once i felt the grind in their games. which begs the question: do you think grind will work in cp77? would you like it? i think the quest based approach to exp is best. but then again cp is probably not your typical rpg with all that reinventing the wheel stuff.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Grind is cool if it is opitional.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Ground beef is nice and can be made cool stuff from. There is also a certain satisfaction in witnessing the results appear out of the grinder as you revolve the lever.

MMMmmmm...


->




Grinding in a cRPG is not cool, though, unless the game is specifically built for it. There can be lots of fun in it if it's made the right way, but it's not really a suitable ingredient to an RPG that aims for higher levels of versatility as it tends to drown everything else under the systemic weight it requires to keep it fun.

Diablo was good back in the day, Grim Dawn is fun in small dozes, M&M games and Wizardries are awesome inspite of grind. But yeah, grinding the trashmobs hurt PST, would've hurt Fallout (and did later on as the game became an unfun Serious Sam knockoff), Wasteland 2 was hurt by it even when the game was meant to be combat heavy (there was just too much, and there were other issues building for it too).

Certain games are suited for it, others are not. I never considered CP2020 to be such. It was too lethal. And I hope that aspect carries over to CP2077 too; combat is there, it's fun both systemically and mechanically, but it is there for the same reasons other forms of world interactions are, not because it's the point and purpose. And as such, I would hope, combat, how ever grindy it can get for characters specifically seeking for it, is allowed to work a bit differently than a dedicated combat game.

 

[Eltyris]

"Good grind" is based on addictive interlocking systems of loot, experience and upgrades, character or equipment.. with no limitations to player power in sight. Blizzard is king here, especially how they condition the player through audio/visual design, and itemization.

Cyberpunk...should be kind of opposite of this. Conflict should be more considerate and more realistic limitations ( from inventory, progression, etc) should make choices more relevant, instead of "just one more step" on a power rush.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Come to think of it. Most games revolve around killing dozens and dozens of mobs all around, all over and all the time. It could be neat if Cyberpunk 2077, against all odds, took a thematic sidestep and made a point from the significance of taking life. Inspite of it seemingly being cheap or even righteous (within a biased context), there's almost always more victims than just the guy who's brains now decorate the wall.

In a sense a somewhat similiar approach as History of Violence. The act looks cool and might feel just, but the results are horrifying.

Peopole are not pretty with their insides out, especially if they still live.

 

[4meg]

Life in CP2077 may be cheap, but you should have to seriously think twice about taking one. If you do there should be consequences. Serious and probably lethal ones. I want cyberpunk, not a twitch shooter.

 

[Suhiira]

Life in CP2077 may be cheap, but you should have to seriously think twice about taking one. If you do there should be consequences. Serious and probably lethal ones. I want cyberpunk, not a twitch shooter.

If nothing else the combat system in CP2020 makes you do so because it's so realistic, you can't shrug off getting hit, nor do you have any magical way to heal.
As said by others, the last thing I want to see be CP2077 be just another shooter (even tho some here are lobbying for it to be just that).

 

[4meg]

If nothing else the combat system in CP2020 makes you do so because it's so realistic, you can't shrug off getting hit, nor do you have any magical way to heal.
As said by others, the last thing I want to see be CP2077 be just another shooter (even tho some here are lobbying for it to be just that).

Then leave them in the lobby where they belong.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Just write a quest for it, give a purpose for a player to actually play and explore the goddamn game. Harsh world we live in, I know. With that out of the way:

I don't mind radiant quests in Shadowrun (1994, Genesis) when I have to level up and grind for cash (a true cyberpunk is always poor, spend earned in danger cash on latest cyberware and gizmos, at least in my view), where scenarios were written by hand and absolutely fitting the world. CP2077 can have content gated out based on player's rank, lvl, skill number, any other important criteria to meet and fill the blanks with these mentioned job quests. Before kofeiiniturpa ruins everything by deep monologues about handcrafted content and how Morrowind is handcraft and great(if you have such thoughts, just leave please), the number of handcrafted quests with actual story is always limited, very limited. If you don't fill up the blanks, you end up with several guild-related storylines that can be completed in two to five hours each, which from player's perspective is short and anticlimatic. Jobs done right is whole new layer of immersion.

 

[asheram]

do you like grind? do you grind is nice? i don't. i recently quit shadow of war because of a bugs but also the game is grindy as fuck.

Is Shadow of War more grindy than its predecessor Shadow of Mordor or did they make it more grindy so they can sell lootboxes?

 

[eraser7278]

...unless you spend money on our loot-boxes

 

[Rawls]

do you like grind? do you grind is nice? i don't. i recently quit shadow of war because of a bugs but also the game is grindy as fuck. it makes me think just how well cdpr games thus far were designed: minimum grind, maximum quest exp. want to become bad ass fine, explore off the beaten path, talk to more characters.

Minimum grind. I feel like RPGs are at their best when they aren't combat all the time. Plus I hope the combat is much more lethal than your average game like CP2020. Make combat something you're afraid of, not bored of.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Before kofeiiniturpa ruins everything by deep monologues about handcrafted content and how Morrowind is handcraft and great(if you have such thoughts, just leave please), the number of handcrafted quests with actual story is always limited, very limited. If you don't fill up the blanks, you end up with several guild-related storylines that can be completed in two to five hours each, which from player's perspective is short and anticlimatic. Jobs done right is whole new layer of immersion.

Wasn't going to say anything. I like there to be a certain random element in the content. What I've been against is that those things are pouring from doors and windows and chimneys and have no cautionary (and otherwise) connections to anywhere. Pacing of their offering and the actual amount at a time, and the interconnectivity to make them feel like they have more weight. That kind of stuff.

I could well see the player getting fairly simplistic randomized runnerjobs from a faceless phoneconversations or some such, but it just needs to tie into something somehow and be limited at least in its pacing, lest it just becomes the sort of grind it so easily can.

I don't like the name "radiant quest" because it straight rips from Betehsda's tidalwave of inanity and inconsequence.

 

[Suhiira]

Make combat something you're afraid of, not bored of.

:cheers:

 

[BjornTheBandit]

Ground beef is nice and can be made cool stuff from. There is also a certain satisfaction in witnessing the results appear out of the grinder as you revolve the lever.

MMMmmmm...


->

I too enjoy the grinding and preparation and the following consumption of meatzes

 

[BjornTheBandit]

Minimum grind. I feel like RPGs are at their best when they aren't combat all the time. Plus I hope the combat is much more lethal than your average game like CP2020. Make combat something you're afraid of, not bored of.

That combat fear reminds me of my first time playing through resident evil 2... Got on that train elevator. I had barely any ammo left, and even less health. When I saw eyeball arm guy tear through the metal, and it was time to go out there, I honestly sat there in suspense trying to decide if it was worth it for about 5 minutes real time.

 

[tropit9]

Minimum grind. I feel like RPGs are at their best when they aren't combat all the time. Plus I hope the combat is much more lethal than your average game like CP2020. Make combat something you're afraid of, not bored of.

afraid off,maybe a little, more like stresed off. this is game is dclared as an"action rpg" so probably will contain lots of combat encaounters. but like souls or evil within, combat should feel tense, edgy and make your heart beat. very cyberpunky.

also there is definetaly gonna be lots of non combat missons too, as this is set in cyberpunk tabletop universe-but also this will not be a tabletop game. mike already said it will be different, but he also said what he saw was really cool. so i guess will just have to wait and see.

Is Shadow of War more grindy than its predecessor Shadow of Mordor or did they make it more grindy so they can sell lootboxes?

the game is nice. not worth the 75 i paid for gold edition.

the loot boxes are not forced on you, but they can cut you some very time consuming grind. sort of pay to win but you got to know how to utilize talion skills in combat.

but the end game grind to get the extra ending is on a jrpg level, grindy as fuck in the least.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

That combat fear reminds me of my first time playing through resident evil 2... Got on that train elevator. I had barely any ammo left, and even less health. When I saw eyeball arm guy tear through the metal, and it was time to go out there, I honestly sat there in suspense trying to decide if it was worth it for about 5 minutes real time.

The original Operation Flashpoint (from where Arma continued) had this extreme strive for realism where you were likely to drop from one round. You might get scratched to your hands and you couldn't hit anything with your weapon anymore, or you could get hit to your legs and not walk again during the rest of the mission; but all those were lucky saves, usually you'd hear "snap" and watch how the view drops to the ground as you die (and get a famous quote about war: "War is not nice. -Barbara Bush-" for one example.

I had this situation there where the squad was supposed to do some recon, but ran into a squad of Spetznatz. Everyone died in the combat but me, and grenade shrapnel disabled my legs. I couldn't walk anymore and the nearest extraction point was 3 kilometers through enemy infested territory. Before I even got to thinking what I should do, there was already another enemy patrol jogging there and I had to hide in a bush and hope they wouldn't see me, that the AI could be fooled that way (luckily it could). And I knew that next time someone ponts a gun at me, that's it.

I did manage the mission finally after quite some time, but it was damn tense. In hindsight, I could've reloaded, but that didn't even cross my mind, the last few tries I had died in that fight already. And reloading would've ruined a damn good experience.

Now, I wouldn't want combat in CP2077 to work like it does in OFP or Arma (not in the slightest), but I'd hope combat would always be a cause for concern. Even if the was a cakewalk. By that I mean that there should be outside elements that the game checks when ever the player fights that need to be kept in mind, lest things get really hairy. Something to discourage and even prevent grinding and killingsprees. Not just fear of dying, that goes away with a reload. But something(s) that will carry with the player regardless of the fights results.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

(snip...) But something(s) that will carry with the player regardless of the fights results.

Good idea. And something more meaningful than a useless K/D ratio on some meaningless stat screen somewhere. Now, to brainstorm about it... I'll be back