My reaction when a CDPR member just pm'd me saying "You're the one posting ironic gay pics in our forums? Well done.":
I want to see this tech among many others for actual stealth gameplay, not just concepts. Seen this years ago and Cp2077 needs to innovate on some cool stealth techniques other then basic hide and seek tactics used in most stealth games. I'd still love to see some camo and invisibility suits as well. Tech demos always have the coolest ideas never to be seen in games.
[video=youtube;-bLOi3mo9NE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bLOi3mo9NE[/video]
Sometimes those random encounters can turn from bad to worse.
[video=youtube;-bLOi3mo9NE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bLOi3mo9NE[/video]
Sometimes those random encounters can turn from bad to worse.
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Stealth System is the most overrated System on Stealth Games until it started. It’s removes the balance of the game sometimes and becomes repetitive. We already have a lot of Games based on Stealth and most of it nothing changes when it comes to gameplay.
I hope Stealth System will be more different towards combat and gameplay that it will not be like any Assassin Creed Type of Combat and Gameplay. It should be something on Sub-Category of Stealth and limits the players to use that it will not be like a 1 Shot 1 Kill.
Stealth is still on the fun way to use to combat. They are the best to use against certain type of Huge Damage Dealers to you. They have this probabilities for them to us to use and that’s great! Someone is Vulnerable on Stealth and Someone doesn’t. Making the game unpredictable to play is the Best Game.
That’s why Sandbox, Open World , Multiplayer PvP & PvE, RPG , Strategy, Fast-paced Games are getting popular nowadays. They do make Games unpredictable.
I hope Stealth System will be more different towards combat and gameplay that it will not be like any Assassin Creed Type of Combat and Gameplay. It should be something on Sub-Category of Stealth and limits the players to use that it will not be like a 1 Shot 1 Kill.
Stealth is still on the fun way to use to combat. They are the best to use against certain type of Huge Damage Dealers to you. They have this probabilities for them to us to use and that’s great! Someone is Vulnerable on Stealth and Someone doesn’t. Making the game unpredictable to play is the Best Game.
That’s why Sandbox, Open World , Multiplayer PvP & PvE, RPG , Strategy, Fast-paced Games are getting popular nowadays. They do make Games unpredictable.
exogenesis09;n9890341 said:
Stealth gameplay is best suited for games that aren't inherently focused around it but offer it as a valuable and useful option in my opinion. When games allow for it, is when the mechanics truly shine and from that, the best experiences. Obviously games like Assassins creed or Hitman, you going to be slipping blades or shooting them in the back for 40 plus hours, and gets old in 2. If you get caught, you're uber screwed as stealth focused games of the past punish hard making it the only play style. Stealth games as of late, Splinter Cell, MGS5, Dishonored have tried to steer in a faced paced action stealth which, call me hard to please but Im not a fan of either.
With 2077, stealth should have various viable options when the player wants or thinks to use it naturally, with various type of stealth mechanics to use that are situational. Hacking and stealth devices, thermal optics, stealth suits, noise dampeners, as well as your position and line of sight. Not because the games level or missions area are built to accommodate stealth gameplay, aka a strangely placed ventilation shaft that just perfectly allows the player to reach the next room over where you now have access to the highly secured data vault that is extremely guarded and locked down.
There's so many ways to implement stealth features and many more ways to go about using them in game. My opinion is they should include many various mechanics in a realistic manner as well as build the world just as realistic without purposely accommodating for any one play style and let the player come up with their own creative ways to use the mechanics to the fullest.
Deus Ex of late looks more like a theme park attraction or fast food play ground area for kids then it does a stealth game. Look a tunnel, oh a slide, hey a box to climb on. Come on. I want some Escape from Butcher Bay man, or classic splinter cell but with more variation. I hope CDPR could bring something new to the stealth genre.
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BeastModeIron;n9890741 said:
Basically this. You said it better than I could. We don't need all these conveniently placed "here's an obvious stealth mechanic" entry points or anything like that (Though I'm totally 100% fine with multiple points of entry, just for the sake of variation - just not as easy and obvious as what I mentioned), just give us fun stealth tools to use and make the enemy AI not garbage. Let the players do the rest.
Snowflakez;n9892451 said:
Exactly, build the world to be realistic and inconvenient but still plausible. Give the players the tools, gadgets and gear to figure out how to work with the situation and environment and let the player how to decided to attempt it.
Like the old Thief game where you could shoot a grapple arrow rope and climb it basically anywhere in the world, or a micro bot that can fit into small areas to access a terminal to unlock a door. Cp2077 could use free form concepts to allow environmental traversal but with certain restrictions so there is no one way for every situation. I could give hundreds of examples but its much deeper then that, its the concept and idea behind it that matters.
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awesome. companions, they can carry our burdens
i hope we can customize them and give them cool weapons and gear
i hope we can customize them and give them cool weapons and gear
BeastModeIron;n9892571 said:
Nice one! I was just about to post a response on exactly this track. Of all the "stealth" games I've played (or games with "stealth" options), only Thief 1 and 2 truly nailed it, in my opinion.
+ Rough, incomplete, inaccurate maps, forcing the player to observe closely and figure things out.
+ Tools focused on avoiding or escaping from combat.
+ Environment design that made actual, logical sense. No "conveniently placed air ducts" leading into the most secure areas...no "health packs" found in a random barrel in a random hallway...no "ammunition" left on park benches...no "elite royal guard" standing around outside a vacant bathroom. Everything and everyone was where you would believe them to be.
+ The requirement (at the highest difficulty levels) for players to make it in, get the job done, and make it out without any detection whatsoever. No one even knew you were there...until they noticed a door was unlocked a few hours later...
+ NPCs that reacted very realistically. Make a slight noise, and they look around, then remain relaxed but aware. Make an obvious noise, and they would search thoroughly for 2-3 minutes. Make a loud noise, and they would head straight for you, knowing exactly what was going on. Scare them or wound them, they would shout for help, alert every guard in the area, and someone would sound an alarm throughout the whole compound...switching on lights and rushing to protect important areas. And without any BS, "psychic radar" to let them know where you were. Which means all of the above could be used to the player's advantage (even though it was walking a knife's edge at times).
I think even "assassinations" or "sabotage" could be done with the above systems. The whole point of assassinating or sabotaging a target is to save innocent lives (including innocent enemies). Not wipe out every, single factory worker between yourself and the "boss" / "power generator" on the 5th floor. That's why I feel games like Assassin's Creed and Sniper Elite (while several monkeys-worth of fun), fall really flat in their primary goals.
I want that feeling of pressing my ear against a door for 4 minutes straight, memorizing the patterns of patrols on the other side. Or tucking into a dark corner and watching a guard on patrol pass 1.5 feet away from me without any idea at all. To me, that will always be the standard other games need to live up to.
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SigilFey;n9899621 said:
Totally agree! I'm glad somebody else understands how assassination and stealth SHOULD work. Not every hostile you encounter is evil, and that is certainly the case for low-level corporate grunts. I mean, hey, if you want to kill everyone, go for it - but that shouldn't be a focus, and arguably should actually have negative repercussions of some sort. Maybe a lower payout at the end of the mission for being "too messy", or something to that effect.
Suhiira;n9900581 said:
They're fantastic! Although people will advise against it, I recommend starting with Thief 3. It is -- in my opinion -- the one that has aged the best, and feels the most natural to play for more modern gamers.
Whatever you do, do NOT play the latest abomination of a Thief game, though... *shudders*
The Splinter Cell series (older games - new ones are fine, just very very different and not the same feel) is also great. I recommend starting with Chaos Theory. As with Thief 3, it's the most well-aged, it's the most polished and relatively bug free, and it feels the most natural to play if you're used to modern titles. It still retains the exact feel of the old games, though. It wasn't until Double Agent that they started shifting towards more action, and then Conviction completely threw the classic style out the window.
Suhiira;n9900581 said:
Don't hesitate! Even the clunky, older graphics will be quickly drowned in the ambiance.
Snowflakez;n9900771 said:
There is a lot of truth here. I've played it a number of times. It made me miss certain things, but the only thing I disliked was how easy they made combat.
Thief: The Dark Project -- Starts strong...gets a little weird for the sake of "variety". Definitely a freaking awesome story. (I wouldn't blame someone for getting to a point, then shooting me me a dry look, and dropping the game.) Just be sure you hit Youtube, get the whole story, and watch all the cutscenes!
Thief II: The Metal Age -- Best of the bunch in my opinion. Starts strong...gets better and better...and has a phenomenal ending. Story, level design, gameplay, and ambiance. I think this is the defining Thief game.
Thief: Deadly Shadows -- Simplifies a whole lot of stuff, but still feels absolutely great. Also a fantastic story (but it does require a solid understanding of the first 2 games). The "open-world" part is awesome in its own right, but its repetitiveness and simplicity makes the overall experience feel somewhat "disjointed", odd as that may sound. (However, the Shalebridge Cradle mission is worth the purchase of the whole game.)
Thief (2014) -- :confusion:... :thinking: ... :what3: ... :scared: ... :surprise:... ... :facepalm2: ... :eredinfacepalm:
Thief II: The Metal Age -- Best of the bunch in my opinion. Starts strong...gets better and better...and has a phenomenal ending. Story, level design, gameplay, and ambiance. I think this is the defining Thief game.
Thief: Deadly Shadows -- Simplifies a whole lot of stuff, but still feels absolutely great. Also a fantastic story (but it does require a solid understanding of the first 2 games). The "open-world" part is awesome in its own right, but its repetitiveness and simplicity makes the overall experience feel somewhat "disjointed", odd as that may sound. (However, the Shalebridge Cradle mission is worth the purchase of the whole game.)
Thief (2014) -- :confusion:... :thinking: ... :what3: ... :scared: ... :surprise:...
... :facepalm2: ... :eredinfacepalm:SigilFey;n9899621 said:
On the topic of talking about the actual stealth features from those of us who actually want it in Cp2077, I agree, All of these are great points.
There are also very different approaches to stealth in games of pre and post technological era, games like Thief, Skyrim, Assassins Creed vs Dues Ex, MGS or Splinter Cell, and I'd like to see 2077 use a variety of both era of methods.
In a world like Night City, not everything will be high tech security and some situations might call for some old classic stealth while other situations might make great use for stealth tech. We've established AI should be realistic and cohesive so they remember what's going on, rather then forgetting.
I'm most anticipating the tech side of none combat stealth, no weapons and pure stealth, going in getting out and no one knows, you're a ghost.
Things like...
+Pro... Various stealth wear. Optic invisibility suits to hide from human sight/surveillance. Octo camo allows blending into environment. Thermal camo with body heat dampeners to hide from thermal optics.
-Cons... Stealth wear only hides the body, not the weapons or gear you're holding, unless sidearm holsters are built into the suits stealth system, additional coverage or additional stealth devices assist the user from detection. Rain/water might also effect certain suits system unless built with water proofing, but while rainfall still physically hits the invisibility suit, it could allow you to be detected under the right circumstances. Any damage the suit sustains would deactivate its optic camouflage capabilities leaving you completely detectable.
+Pro... Various Stealth Tech. Illusionary hologram projector device, allows the user to project a hologram image of what's behind them, to in front of them to appear as invisible from the front perspective. Remote micro cameras, placed by the user. Noise dampeners, muffles user sounds. Motion detection devices, alerts user to incoming enemies. Climbing gloves to adhere to surfaces/ceilings. Nano bots, access small areas. Drones, multipurpose/ scouting/surveillance. Environmental enhancement optics, allows the user to see in thermal, xray, night vision. Grapple mechanism to access other areas.
-Cons...Stealth tech is very situational and will not allows be applicable to every aspect on every mission. Must be chosen wisely before missions ahead. Small EMP would disable tech from being used temporarily.
This is the Hologram projector tech.
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In spite of some peoples dreams to the contrary I don't foresee any sort of invisibility anytime soon.
While by 2077 that can probably make optical chips small enough, and processors cheap enough to have an affordable (by no means cheap, merely affordable if one is wealthy) man portable holo emitter that would allow slow movement (move to fast and what's behind you can't be projected quickly or accurately enough to make you "invisible"). Plus you really need to take infrared (heat) and probably radar detection into account and shield against those as well because any place really worth breaking into IS going to have multi-spectral security systems. And let's not forget motion detectors, which no sort of "invisibility" can hide you from.
The problem, as with many things, is power. Yes a battery life of even five minutes would be absolutely invaluable, but don't expect to spend an entire mission in stealth/invisibility mode.
While by 2077 that can probably make optical chips small enough, and processors cheap enough to have an affordable (by no means cheap, merely affordable if one is wealthy) man portable holo emitter that would allow slow movement (move to fast and what's behind you can't be projected quickly or accurately enough to make you "invisible"). Plus you really need to take infrared (heat) and probably radar detection into account and shield against those as well because any place really worth breaking into IS going to have multi-spectral security systems. And let's not forget motion detectors, which no sort of "invisibility" can hide you from.
The problem, as with many things, is power. Yes a battery life of even five minutes would be absolutely invaluable, but don't expect to spend an entire mission in stealth/invisibility mode.
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Suhiira;n9913911 said:
Maybe not in 2017
For 2077, sure the tech exists even if in a limited capacity and that's the point, every device will have its pros and cons. In the case of hologram projection, it would only benefit when stationary to work to its full effect, move and it would distort or blur to the perspective of person viewing it, and really exposed on the other side. And this go for everything, will it work, maybe, nothing is for certain.
If you read through my post, I suggested heat dampening suits to hide from infrared or thermal tech. No one peace of equipment or device is full proof or unlimited. Battery life would also be a huge factor on how often the tech should be used and managed carefully. There aren't any expectations, merely suggesting the use of technology.
If this tech is not seen anywhere in 2020, correct me, but my thoughts are what might be available by 2077 theoretically because the world of Cyberpunk isn't all grounded in reality. Regardless of what the 2020 rules are, peoples expectations for the depth of 2077, might be overthinking certain aspects of what the actual game will be.
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Sardukhar;n9918201 said:
This is the point I try to make when these discussions crop up on the forums.
Tech can (and often does) advance at an almost exponential rate once it gets going. We've seen that with the rise of computers. After basic computers comes supercomputers, then AI and lightning fast processing, which will allow us to innovate and develop new tech even more quickly than ever before.
Technological innovation is not linear. It does not move "x notches" up a pole every year, or every decade. There may be a decade where very little happens, but the next decade the industry explodes again. Things that seem completely impossible today could be the norm 10 years from now. Nobody -- no matter how smart they may be -- can predict the future, and 57 years is an awful long time for an awful lot of stuff to happen.
Also, bear in mind that its 57 years after CP2020 not 60 years after real life 2017. Even CP2020 is still futuristic compared to what the real world is now. So its 57 years after an already far future (getting nearer every day, though) setting.
I think all of the pros and cons you highlight are good considerations, and these are the things that I think players would be expecting when they thing "stealth in Cyberpunk". This part...
...is what I would say warrants some real attention. I was also thinking along exactly these lines. Bringing back actual stealth considerations to stealth gameplay. So, fancy hologram toys and therm-optic camo aside -- let's have gameplay focused on a simple and effective lighting system. Or create systems that challenge players to "hide in plain sight". Not just putting on a custodial uniform and pretending to mop floors, but needing to look up files on a particular person, learn their patterns, be sure you're familiar with the customs of the area, etc. When you think you're ready, you don the costume and show up right out in the open. You need to engage in small talk, get through checkpoints, manage to fit in with the "daily routine". Basically, blend in and be able to walk right up to your target and shake their hand, or go right into a high security area and make small-talk with security while you steal data off of a server.
These are all parts of actual "stealth" that games have largely replaced with various ways of "backstabbing enemy mobs". I want to have a chat with the guards over a series of infiltration missions. Learn about one's excitement at being promoted recently. Chat with another about her husband and kids. Learn some details about another's rocky past. Generally, make friends with these people and get to know them. Then, the day arrives where some of them are stationed on duty outside of a critical mission area...and I have no choice...
Technically, we already have it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7J3kJ5Ae3A
(If you don't want to listen to the whole CNN report, just skip to about 4:20.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD83dqSfC0Y
(Freaking go, Japan.)
Neither of them works perfectly, but they are effective!
BeastModeIron;n9913121 said:
...is what I would say warrants some real attention. I was also thinking along exactly these lines. Bringing back actual stealth considerations to stealth gameplay. So, fancy hologram toys and therm-optic camo aside -- let's have gameplay focused on a simple and effective lighting system. Or create systems that challenge players to "hide in plain sight". Not just putting on a custodial uniform and pretending to mop floors, but needing to look up files on a particular person, learn their patterns, be sure you're familiar with the customs of the area, etc. When you think you're ready, you don the costume and show up right out in the open. You need to engage in small talk, get through checkpoints, manage to fit in with the "daily routine". Basically, blend in and be able to walk right up to your target and shake their hand, or go right into a high security area and make small-talk with security while you steal data off of a server.
These are all parts of actual "stealth" that games have largely replaced with various ways of "backstabbing enemy mobs". I want to have a chat with the guards over a series of infiltration missions. Learn about one's excitement at being promoted recently. Chat with another about her husband and kids. Learn some details about another's rocky past. Generally, make friends with these people and get to know them. Then, the day arrives where some of them are stationed on duty outside of a critical mission area...and I have no choice...
Suhiira;n9913911 said:
Technically, we already have it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7J3kJ5Ae3A
(If you don't want to listen to the whole CNN report, just skip to about 4:20.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD83dqSfC0Y
(Freaking go, Japan.)
Neither of them works perfectly, but they are effective!
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SigilFey;n9918431 said:
HOLY CRAP! That is so cool (the Japan one). I especially like what they said about creating a "transparent cockpit" for planes and cars. That would definitely increase safety.
But, to your main point regarding having "traditional" or "actual" stealth mechanics, I totally agree. I think what you propose after that may be a bit too ambitious, but hey - what do I know? I'd love to see it nonetheless, and no harm in discussing it.
I do think we'll see at least some bluffing/"hide in plain site" type stuff and non-tech stealth based on lighting and such, though. Heck, even Fallout 4 had the former, to a degree.