"You fire your gun at a human enemy 10 levels higher than you - headshot."

[Suhiira]

No such thing as a "sure thing" when it comes to shooting people.

http://www.ripleys.com/weird-news/survived-execution/
Sentenced to execution by firing squad during the 1915 Mexican Revolution, Wenseslao Moguel survived despite being shot nine times, the final coup de grâce, a bullet shot through his head by an officer to ensure death.

 

[Snowflakez]

No such thing as a "sure thing" when it comes to shooting people.

http://www.ripleys.com/weird-news/survived-execution/
Sentenced to execution by firing squad during the 1915 Mexican Revolution, Wenseslao Moguel survived despite being shot nine times, the final coup de grâce, a bullet shot through his head by an officer to ensure death.

In which the bullet through the head was indeed the "sure thing", which is what I'm talking about. Heck, pump two bullets through someones head if you want to be sure, but it should be death. Only very rare circumstances should that ever be survivable, certainly not the norm. IMO.

 

[Sardukhar]

In which the bullet through the head was indeed the "sure thing", which is what I'm talking about. Heck, pump two bullets through someones head if you want to be sure, but it should be death. Only very rare circumstances should that ever be survivable, certainly not the norm. IMO.

Uhhh....I did say .22. A .22 will often penetrate, but I've had them bounce off skulls of animals. It's a really light calibre. No guarantee of death. use 2 or 3 if you're wanting to be thorough. No one hunts with a .22.

Nothing is ever 100% with bullets, or even close to it, actually. Su gave you one example - there are many, many more.

FOR THE RECORD, for a .38, which does 1d6+2, that's 8 damage. Minus 2 for an average body type or minus 3 for a strong person, then doubled, that's STILL 10 to 12 damage to the head, auto kill.

I actually don't like the "autokill" rule. Pretty much nothing dies instantly in the animal kingdom. I prefer a Mortal 0 death save and then a death save every round or minute until tended to or dead.

A 5.56 round is 30 damage. -3 for a strong person, that's 27. Doubled to 54. That's very dead. Better?

 

[Snowflakez]

Uhhh....I did say .22. A .22 will often penetrate, but I've had them bounce off skulls of animals. It's a really light calibre. No guarantee of death. use 2 or 3 if you're wanting to be thorough. No one hunts with a .22.

Nothing is ever 100% with bullets, or even close to it, actually. Su gave you one example - there are many, many more.

FOR THE RECORD, for a .38, which does 1d6+2, that's 8 damage. Minus 2 for an average body type or minus 3 for a strong person, then doubled, that's STILL 10 to 12 damage to the head, auto kill.

I actually don't like the "autokill" rule. Pretty much nothing dies instantly in the animal kingdom. I prefer a Mortal 0 death save and then a death save every round or minute until tended to or dead.

A 5.56 round is 30 damage. -3 for a strong person, that's 27. Doubled to 54. That's very dead. Better?

You've had .22 bullets bounce off the skull of animals at point blank range?

It doesn't necessarily need to be autokill, my point is, if I have a gun literally against some enemy's skull, and I fire... the chances of survival should be low. If you can prove that, statistically, the amount of people/animals/whatever that survive that sort of shot is higher then the amount of people that don't, I'll gladly adopt your PoV... But until then...

No offense. We may just have to agree to disagree. I have shot guns before, though I don't particularly like them, and I see no world in which a .22 doesn't penetrate a skull at point blank range. Not unless they have cyberware, in the context of 2077, which -- as we've all said many a time in the past -- shouldn't be super common for street level thugs (not fancy skull mods, anyway).

 

[Guest 4149880]

Between a varying bullet point deduction system based on caliber and individual weapon accuracy vs enemy defense points based on exposed body part areas, armor, and augmentations all adding up as defense all while character/enemy movement. Getting perfect headshots constantly are unlikely during moment to moment combat scenarios anyway.

So while yes most decent calibers would kill a human enemy point blank one shot to the head without a helmet gear or augs, as it should. Don't expect that same result from enemies that aren't at your mercy, they will fight back just as hard as you will.

When you're fighting enemies who have bullet resistant gear or augs or both, now we're talking about how a bullet point deduction vs all of their defensive points on each area of the body will drastically change how much or little damage is being done in total.

With gear/augs added up onto their human body part defense as a total of each area, and movement. Not quite so easy now. Also don't forget that complete cyborg limbs aren't going to impact their actual health, but maybe a loss of mobility if damaged enough.

And that's not even the extent of its complexity, but after all is to be considered, not many enemies will be one shot fodder by no means. Oh and they're shooting back, go figure... Just FYI for anyone who thought enemies were going to be lining up for headshots, think again.

 

[Snowflakez]

Between a varying bullet point deduction system based on caliber and individual weapon accuracy vs enemy defense points based on exposed body part areas, armor, and augmentations all adding up as defense all while character/enemy movement. Getting perfect headshots constantly are unlikely during moment to moment combat scenarios anyway.

So while yes most decent calibers would kill a human enemy point blank one shot to the head without a helmet gear or augs, as it should. Don't expect that same result from enemies that aren't at your mercy, they will fight back just as hard as you will.

When you're fighting enemies who have bullet resistant gear or augs or both, now we're talking about how a bullet point deduction vs all of their defensive points on each area of the body will drastically change how much or little damage is being done in total.

With gear/augs added up onto their human body part defense as a total of each area, and movement. Not quite so easy now. Also don't forget that complete cyborg limbs aren't going to impact their actual health, but maybe a loss of mobility if damaged enough.

And that's not even the extent of its complexity, but after all is to be considered, not many enemies will be one shot fodder by no means. Oh and they're shooting back, go figure... Just FYI for anyone who thought enemies were going to be lining up for headshots, think again.

Yeah, a headshot aimed from any distance further than a meter or point blank range should definitely not be something you can just reliably do over and over. But if the enemy is at your mercy, and you're right behind him (perhaps sneaking up on him/her, with them standing still) it'd be a bit silly if it wasn't lethal. I mean, there's a risk associated with working your way into close proximity with an enemy anyway, right?

 

[Guest 4149880]

Yeah, a headshot aimed from any distance further than a meter or point blank range should definitely not be something you can just reliably do over and over. But if the enemy is at your mercy, and you're right behind him (perhaps sneaking up on him/her, with them standing still) it'd be a bit silly if it wasn't lethal. I mean, there's a risk associated with working your way into close proximity with an enemy anyway, right?

Exactly how I would expect close quarters and stealth to work, point blank lethal, and that's the pay off. No need for 3x damage stealth, just close enough to get a clean shot. That's what I hope for, yes sir.

And even though modern silencers aren't actually silent as portrayed in stealth games and movies. I'd like to think by 2077 they actually are and can be used practically without alerting other enemies in the area. Even still, nothing beats some old school 007 stealth.

 

[Suhiira]

Uhhh....I did say .22. A .22 will often penetrate, but I've had them bounce off skulls of animals. It's a really light calibre. No guarantee of death. use 2 or 3 if you're wanting to be thorough. No one hunts with a .22.

Nothing is ever 100% with bullets, or even close to it, actually. Su gave you one example - there are many, many more.

And speaking of .22's ...
There was a guy that got mugged and beaten unconscious. When he woke up he had a headache but when it didn't go away for three days he decided to go to the hospital. Turned out he had five ... yes five ... .22 bullets in his brain, none had hit anything vital.

Yes ... getting shot in the head is bad news ... hell getting shot anywhere is bad news ... but it's not nearly as "autokill" as most seem to think. As I said in another post, half your head isn't your brain so even a head shot is at best 50/50 for being a brain hit.

FOR THE RECORD, for a .38, which does 1d6+2, that's 8 damage. Minus 2 for an average body type or minus 3 for a strong person, then doubled, that's STILL 10 to 12 damage to the head, auto kill.

I actually don't like the "autokill" rule. Pretty much nothing dies instantly in the animal kingdom. I prefer a Mortal 0 death save and then a death save every round or minute until tended to or dead.

A 5.56 round is 30 damage. -3 for a strong person, that's 27. Doubled to 54. That's very dead. Better?

A agree with Sard on the "Mortal 0" thing. Never cared much for "autokill" when it comes to characters, give them a chance be snatched back from the brink. This is another excellent reason lone wolves die and a pack survives.

Personally I prefer to deal with injury severity rather then points. Graze, Light, Moderate, Severe, Critical, Mortal says a lot more (to me) then "You took X amount of damage."

 

[Snowflakez]

And speaking of .22's ...
There was a guy that got mugged and beaten unconscious. When he woke up he had a headache but when it didn't go away for three days he decided to go to the hospital. Turned out he had five ... yes five ... .22 bullets in his brain, none had hit anything vital.

Yes ... getting shot in the head is bad news ... hell getting shot anywhere is bad news ... but it's not nearly as "autokill" as most seem to think. As I said in another post, half your head isn't your brain so even a head shot is at best 50/50 for being a brain hit.


A agree with Sard on the "Mortal 0" thing. Never cared much for "autokill" when it comes to characters, give them a chance be snatched back from the brink. This is another excellent reason lone wolves die and a pack survives.

Personally I prefer to deal with injury severity rather then points. Graze, Light, Moderate, Severe, Critical, Mortal says a lot more (to me) then "You took X amount of damage."

Sure, there's a story for literally any impossible seeming situation that proves it wrong. The question is, how likely is it statistically for that to be the case? If there's a 90% chance that somebody is going to die with a point blank shot to the head (.22 or otherwise), no amount of anectodal survival stories really matters - 90% of the time, that shot should be killing the fella in front of you. A quick google search says 5% of headshots are survivable, and only 2% are survivable with any decent quality of life - granted, there's a lot more to consider than just "headshot" (what weapon, what distance, etc.), but it at least suggests a trend.

I'm not saying a sniper rifle shot from a mile away should be lethal if you land a headshot. From that distance, anything is possible. Heck, even from standard firefighting distance, anything is possible. But nothing is going to convince me that your average person is going to sit there and take an aimed bullet to the brain, at point blank range, and walk away just fine. I'll need to see some solid statistics to back that up before I'll buy that.

But, hey - if there's a small chance that the guy or gal I just shot comes back an in-game month later to tear me a new ... you know ... I'm all for that! Sounds like an awesome way to create a side story from nothing, and world reactivity is something a lot of us want from 2077.

Anyway, from a gameplay perspective, injuries sound fine to me. Just important to determine what causes each level of injury, and what each level of industry does to the person being... well, injured.

 

[Sardukhar]

Sure, there's a story for literally any impossible seeming situation that proves it wrong. The question is, how likely is it statistically for that to be the case? If there's a 90% chance

There isn't. Bullets don't work that way. You can collate all the firearms deaths in the world and get some whacked-out statistics. A quick google search will tell you that. People very, very rarely die instantly - typically, even from an incapacitating wound, it's within hours. Historically, often by infection.

The stats you're looking for don't exist in any specifity. I don't know what google search you are looking at, but I'd question such specific accuracy, especially in terms of "instant-kill". 90% regardless of calibre? Nonsense. Calibre matters a tremendous amount.

Also, no one here other than you said "walk away fine" from a .22. By FNFF rules, 8 points of damage puts you on the edge of Critical. You have to make a stun save to stay up. You're bleeding, so you're about to go further down the wound track and be critically, then mortally wounded.

The .22 has actually been involved in lots of fatalities, probably because a) commonality and b) if you're hit by the bullet, you might not know it right off. Jacked up on adrenalin, probably already bruised or harmed, you could bleed out without realizing. That said, I know 2 people shot with the .22 and both went down. Not immediately though - and no, not head shots.

Yes, I've had .22 bounces. It's a tiny bullet and all it takes is the wrong angle and thick hair. Or, it might go right through and kill. After some gasping and twitching.

Do you want to get shot in the head by one? No. Getting shot anywhere sucks apparently and will put you down eventually.

Getting shot in the neck or through the heart/lungs or femoral artery is typically worse than head - no skull protection.

But it's just not like the movies or books. Bullets and tissue damage and wounds caused by same are hard to predict. I care less about "instant kill" nonsense and more about stopping power, which is what matters. [COLOR=inherit !important]


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[Suhiira]

I have no clue where your Google reference got it's stats. Maybe look up some from WW I where due to trench warefare there were lots, and lots, an lots of headshots ... and guess what ... lots, and lots, and lots of people survived them.

.22 LRs are actually fairly lethal rounds. No they probably won't kill anything instantly, but blood loss, tissue trauma, etc means lots of injuries made by them are fatal. Another significant factor is the sheer number of them around. If you look up firearms deaths by caliber you'll be amazed at the number of people killed by .22s.

And I agree with Sard on "stopping power". My personal weapon is a .357, if I hit anyone with it, anywhere (besides a finger or earlobe) , they're probably going down. And I don't care if they have body armor, unless it's Class IV or better which I may not penetrate ... I'll just shatter half their ribcage. Vehicle? No problem, couple rounds to the engine block and they're not going to get very far. Also I can practice with regular .38s (MUCH cheaper) and I don't have to worry about breaking my wrist like I would with some.44 mag.

 

[RLKing1969]

There is a lot of splitting of hairs going on here, but the major point is this: The entire idea of "Levels" is lame. The only thing that more experience in a game like CP means to me is this: 1.) The more experienced guy/gal has seen some sh*t and is smart enough to 1.) Take precautions NOT to get him/her self shot in the gourd to begin with. (Helmets, taking cover and the like.). 2.) Has a "backup" plan in place in case he/she DOES eat the big one (Clones, a good Trauma Team account, doubles to take the lead, hoards of followers, cronies and the like or will be smart enough to work though "go-betweens" and bodyguards to ensure their continued survival) and the like. The point is, if they guy/or gal is more badass than you, it doesn't mean that they are any less human, it just means that they have had more time and experience at being better prepared. The only possible exception to this would be a Full conversion Borg, whom, by the way, can still be killed, but because of the tech edge, the character might have to fight a little smarter and run a lot faster than he/she might normally.

 

[Snowflakez]

There is a lot of splitting of hairs going on here, but the major point is this: The entire idea of "Levels" is lame. The only thing that more experience in a game like CP means to me is this: 1.) The more experienced guy/gal has seen some sh*t and is smart enough to 1.) Take precautions NOT to get him/her self shot in the gourd to begin with. (Helmets, taking cover and the like.). 2.) Has a "backup" plan in place in case he/she DOES eat the big one (Clones, a good Trauma Team account, doubles to take the lead, hoards of followers, cronies and the like or will be smart enough to work though "go-betweens" and bodyguards to ensure their continued survival) and the like. The point is, if they guy/or gal is more badass than you, it doesn't mean that they are any less human, it just means that they have had more time and experience at being better prepared. The only possible exception to this would be a Full conversion Borg, whom, by the way, can still be killed, but because of the tech edge, the character might have to fight a little smarter and run a lot faster than he/she might normally.

Nothing wrong with levels. Just depends on the game. Lots of great classic RPGs have them, a game is no lesser because it has them and no greater because it doesn't. But 2020 didn't have them, so no reason for 2077 to have them either. Of course, there were skill levels, but that's a different matter entirely, and is much more representative of a person's overall improvement at various things over time. Much more realistic. A player doesn't sit there brewing potions all day only to level up and put perk points in shooting a bow.. not if realism is important, anyway.

I think a lot of us would prefer a level-less system to begin with - a skill-based, not level-based system. Gun A that you acquire at the start of the game is as good as Gun Z that you get at the end, barring obvious bullet penetration and caliber differences, and any fancy modifications or additional realistic factors.

Progression should come from getting better at skills (weapon handling, stealth, vehicle handling, bluffing/streetwise) and acquiring money to purchase higher-end equipment (not just +5 damage). That's it.

Anyway, regarding headshots, the argument I was making is that the odds of somebody dying to a point blank shot to the dome seem like they'd be a hell of a lot higher than the odds of that person surviving. It doesn't need to be an "instant kill", very few things are, but there shouldn't be a 50/50 chance they get up and start walking, either. A shot to the head is a shot to the head. It doesn't need to outright kill them, but it should absolutely, 100% be a disabling shot. No doubt about it. You are inflicting massive brain damage on them assuming the bullet penetrates (I refuse to believe -- unless proven otherwise with actual evidence -- that a barrel placed against a skull does not result in bullet penetration, caliber be damned).

Now, from a distance... that's another matter.

 

[RLKing1969]

Nothing wrong with levels. Just depends on the game. Lots of great classic RPGs have them, a game is no lesser because it has them and no greater because it doesn't. But 2020 didn't have them, so no reason for 2077 to have them either. Of course, there were skill levels, but that's a different matter entirely, and is much more representative of a person's overall improvement at various things over time. Much more realistic. A player doesn't sit there brewing potions all day only to level up and put perk points in shooting a bow.. not if realism is important, anyway.

I think a lot of us would prefer a level-less system to begin with - a skill-based, not level-based system. Gun A that you acquire at the start of the game is as good as Gun Z that you get at the end, barring obvious bullet penetration and caliber differences, and any fancy modifications or additional realistic factors.

Progression should come from getting better at skills (weapon handling, stealth, vehicle handling, bluffing/streetwise) and acquiring money to purchase higher-end equipment (not just +5 damage). That's it.

Anyway, regarding headshots, which is the current discussion, the argument I was making is that the odds of somebody dying to a point blank shot to the dome seem like they'd be a hell of a lot higher than the odds of that person surviving. It doesn't need to be an "instant kill", very few things are, but there shouldn't be a 50/50 chance they get up and start walking, either. A shot to the head is a shot to the head. It doesn't need to outright kill them, but it should absolutely, 100% be a disabling shot. No doubt about it. You are inflicting massive brain damage on them assuming the bullet penetrates (I refuse to believe -- unless proven otherwise with actual evidence -- that a barrel placed against a skull does not result in bullet penetration, caliber be damned).

Now, from a distance... that's another matter.

Agreed. More than anything though, this would be more of an abstract matter of "LUCK" than anything else...It will be highly interesting to see how CDPR treats this. It is a fact of life however, that a vast majority of shots to the dome either lead to death or in at very least brain damage to varying degrees and an insane number of variables play a role in what actually occurs when a bullet hits the dome. My major beef is the abstraction of the whole "Levels" thing. I realize it IS an abstraction to mark overall experience and progress. But, I suppose, my biggest complaint is simply this: The idea that an individual who is much more experienced suddenly becomes a lot less mortal, especially in a supposedly much more reality based game is simply ludicrous.

 

[Snowflakez]

Agreed. More than anything though, this would be more of an abstract matter of "LUCK" than anything else...It will be highly interesting to see how CDPR treats this. It is a fact of life however, that a vast majority of shots to the dome either lead to death or in at very least brain damage to varying degrees and an insane number of variables play a role in what actually occurs when a bullet hits the dome. My major beef is the abstraction of the whole "Levels" thing. I realize it IS an abstraction to mark overall experience and progress. But, I suppose, my biggest complaint is simply this: The idea that an individual who is much more experienced suddenly becomes a lot less mortal, especially in a supposedly much more reality based game is simply ludicrous.

Yeah, definitely, I agree. It's one of the issues I have with games like Oblivion and Skyrim. Certain mods that de-level everything improve things quite a bit, but it just doesn't really make sense for a bandit -- even one 30 levels above me -- to suddenly be able to take 60 more arrows than the one I just fought a few minutes ago. Bullet sponges/higher level = more health is the number one thing 2077 needs to avoid.. Well, maybe not the number one thing, but it's absolutely up there.

 

[Suhiira]

Agreed. More than anything though, this would be more of an abstract matter of "LUCK" than anything else...It will be highly interesting to see how CDPR treats this.

If you GM is generous, and your players are smart (i.e. they save some of their Luck for emergencies), you can use CP2020's Luck stat to turn that lethal hit you just took into something survivable.
No reason this couldn't be incorporated in to CP2077.

 

[RLKing1969]

If you GM is generous, and your players are smart (i.e. they save some of their Luck for emergencies), you can use CP2020's Luck stat to turn that lethal hit you just took into something survivable.
No reason this couldn't be incorporated in to CP2077.

Agreed. Truth be known though, I am of the firm belief that sound tactics and common sense should rule they day.

 

[LemonZadeh]

hmm, unless there's no headgear I'm on board with the entire "bullets bouncing off" idea

 

[Suhiira]

hmm, unless there's no headgear I'm on board with the entire "bullets bouncing off" idea

Of course there will be heagear ... you can't do Cyberpunk without shades!
...
...
...
Oh ... you meant helmets and such ...

 

[jj284b]

Its a tricky question, and it depends what game type are we talking about.. if its RPG, then there should be no "direct aiming" based on player skill, but instead extrapolated through player skills.. This way, he does headshot only if his marksmanship is high enough (or possibly with some special skill to make a headshot). I think marksmanship should work to reduce randomness of hits, therefore, better shot you are, more likely you score good hits, but even at low skill, there is still a chance to score some very random hit.

But of course, bullets should be effective no matter the level. Makes no sense for a bullet to do less damage just because of lower level number... I think it would be best to remove level number completely and delevel everything... instead, make everything about skills you can learn, and improving through practice.