"You fire your gun at a human enemy 10 levels higher than you - headshot."

[kofeiiniturpa]

if its RPG, then there should be no "direct aiming" based on player skill

Indeed.

What ever way it is handled (and there are a lot ways to handle it 'right'), player skill shouldn't substitute the characters own nor cover for the lack thereof (elsewise there's no need for characterskills). This should definitely be taken into account when designing the overall gameplay/character system dynamics as while the topic here is about combat, the subject matter at hand is an all-encompassing one.

 

[Suhiira]

But of course, bullets should be effective no matter the level. Makes no sense for a bullet to do less damage just because of lower level number... I think it would be best to remove level number completely and delevel everything... instead, make everything about skills you can learn, and improving through practice.

This sounds amazingly like the CP2020 PnP as written.
Never understood why people assume all PnP games are level based, they're not.

 

[Snowflakez]

This sounds amazingly like the CP2020 PnP as written.
Never understood why people assume all PnP games are level based, they're not.

Well... 2020 does have levels, just not character levels. But I get what you mean. Leveling up and putting stat points and skill points into things, fighting a level 30 human that can oneshot you, etc.

 

[Meccanical]

Well... 2020 does have levels, just not character levels. But I get what you mean. Leveling up and putting stat points and skill points into things, fighting a level 30 human that can oneshot you, etc.

Speaking of, I'm playing a free trial of the Division right now because people have been saying it's a lot better than before.

There's a lot of level 5 people with names like "Five-O" who's bullets hit way harder than yours and can tank a full thirty round mag of 5.56 ammunition no prob.

I get it that it's a multiplayer game, but man. I don't like stuff like this. The game is gorgeous to look at though.

 

[atomowyturysta]

The better you are the harder you are to be surprised, to be spotted, you move better, faster. You shoot faster, more precisely, you pounch and kick more deadly. You can better utilize a cover and your sorroundings to your advantage. But, if for some reason a literal nobody catches you off guard and puts a bullet in your brain. Your dead. No matter how powerful in "levels" you are. That should be the idea behind combat in CP77.

 

[PrivateRobot]

Here goes nothing. Since I cannot find the forum page on this, I post this on here so the devs can see.

A member from your dev team asked what happens if you shoot someone 10 levels higher than you.
Well I personally think that it should be a kill shot, BUT what you could do is limit bullets, make bullets very rare , as to not be able to go around and single shot enemies that are way above your own level.
Instead of going in and killing enemies that are a higher level than you with lets say a sniper that has 100 bullets, you could perhaps make so that bullets, or sniper bullets are rare, and instead of 100 bullets you have 10? get it?
Personally Thought that this was a very good idea, what do you guys think?

 

[Suhiira]

Here goes nothing. Since I cannot find the forum page on this, I post this on here so the devs can see.

A member from your dev team asked what happens if you shoot someone 10 levels higher than you.
Well I personally think that it should be a kill shot, BUT what you could do is limit bullets, make bullets very rare , as to not be able to go around and single shot enemies that are way above your own level.
Instead of going in and killing enemies that are a higher level than you with lets say a sniper that has 100 bullets, you could perhaps make so that bullets, or sniper bullets are rare, and instead of 100 bullets you have 10? get it?
Personally Thought that this was a very good idea, what do you guys think?

Umm ...
It's America, in a city where EVERYONE is armed.
You go to your corner gun shop and buy bullets by the case (not box ... case).
Barring that you see your local Fixer (Black Market) and pay a bit more for the same case of bullets.

This ain't Max Max or Fallout where such things are hard to come by.

(( This is a cut and paste of my reply from the other forum topic where this was also posted. ))

 

[walkingdarkly]

Here goes nothing.

Welcome to the forums and there went everything, as already pointed out by Suhiira, this is a futuristic American city in the Cyberpunk genre, which means bullets are as common as pennies and you can drop by a local general store and pick up a case of ammo along with a replacement pack of kibble for the night.

Welcome to Night City, hope you brought an armored vest.

You go to your corner gun shop

I like to imagine it's more of a general store, grab a case of .44s, loaf of bread, can of beans and gallon of milk all in one go.

and in closing...weeeww..the stench from this dead thread..

 

[Sardukhar]

I like to imagine it's more of a general store, grab a case of .44s, loaf of bread, can of beans and gallon of milk all in one go.

Same. Albeit NeoBread, beans and soymilk of course.

But yeah, food, ammo and booze at your local corner store.

They actually have those stores in Montana, for instance, last I was there.

 

[Suhiira]

They actually have those stores in Montana, for instance, last I was there.

The tiny town I grew up nearest to (South Dakota) had one store and a Farmers CoOp gas station.
The CoOp sold farming needs, feed, seed, etc. as well as gas, the store was very much a "General Store" with food, clothes, books, and yes ... ammo.

 

[Sardukhar]

So this is part of the lure of Cyberpunk - it's Reality, plus a little. Corner stores with ammo and tooth floss.

As you play it, you often think, "what if this was my life?" or, "what if this is someone's life?"

And in reality, headshots are hard to make ( professional are trained to aim for the body) and nearly always incapacitating and/or fatal in seconds-minutes.

 

[wisielec]

Skill governs your aim, the more precise shot the more deadly. Grazes, hits and critical hits. You have a negative modifier for a headshot. If you score a hit the number of success tells you if its a graze, a hit or a crit. Gameplay: you aim and hit the head but its a graze, a bit of hp is deducted and the target gets a debuff. A hit should stagger, stun or the like and cause serious hp loss. Crit should be a triple or more the damage with a possibility of instant death - taking into account range, body type, armour, augs and whatnot (as another modifier).

 

[Suhiira]

Skill governs your aim, the more precise shot the more deadly. Grazes, hits and critical hits. You have a negative modifier for a headshot. If you score a hit the number of success tells you if its a graze, a hit or a crit. Gameplay: you aim and hit the head but its a graze, a bit of hp is deducted and the target gets a debuff. A hit should stagger, stun or the like and cause serious hp loss. Crit should be a triple or more the damage with a possibility of instant death - taking into account range, body type, armour, augs and whatnot (as another modifier).

CP2020 handles it the "other way". Head hits automatically do extra damage.
In the PnP there's no real provision for a "graze", but armor often produces the same effect.

Not to say I wouldn't like to see (and in fact used in a different PnP game [Morrow Project]) such a system in CP2077.

 

[wisielec]

CP2020 handles it the "other way". Head hits automatically do extra damage.
In the PnP there's no real provision for a "graze", but armour often produces the same effect.

Not to say I wouldn't like to see (and in fact used in a different PnP game [Morrow Project]) such a system in CP2077.

I know, but since this is a video game we have to take into account that gamers aim "by hand". If we do not want to impair their immersion we must go around this. So its not a matter of a hit but how it hits. So you have an aim/skill factor blended in. And to avoid high lvl enemies being hp sponges I guess. In a fire-fight its mostly you, the player responsible for the execution of the action. In shootings the other party rarely has any impact on someone's aim.

Unless there is no skill with firearms and you hit what you aim for - if you shoot in the head, the perp is dead cold. But "if" damage output+crit and save against insta-death is lower than opponents hp... XD

 

[Suhiira]

I know, but since this is a video game we have to take into account that gamers aim "by hand". If we do not want to impair their immersion we must go around this. So its not a matter of a hit but how it hits. So you have an aim/skill factor blended in. And to avoid high lvl enemies being hp sponges I guess. In a fire-fight its mostly you, the player responsible for the execution of the action. In shootings the other party rarely has any impact on someone's aim.

Unless there is no skill with firearms and you hit what you aim for - if you shoot in the head, the perp is dead cold. But "if" damage output+crit and save against insta-death is lower than opponents hp... XD

You seem to be assuming CP2077 will be an all out FPS.
This is unlikely as that would totally negate many RPG aspects of the game.

 

[Durzo_Steelfin]

If it was any other setting I would say , "You shoot i'm in the head, he dead". Doesn't matter what "level" he is. Doesn't matter what kind of badass he is. If you get the drop on someone and line up the perfect shot. He dead.

In cyberpunk though... its a bit more grey. you get the drop on a Solo (somehow) and shoot him in the head (Or even just a random Booster Ganger) and he could have a Skull with Bullet resistance rivaling a concrete traffic pylon.

But for the typical guy or even the typical ganger, getting shot in the head is bad news. I've seen this exact question posted in multiple places in relation to this game and I have to assume that the question comes from people that have never played the game, especially when they say that people of a higher level should be more resilient than another dude of lower level with the exact same gear. That's not cyberpunk. Cyberpunk is lethal. Its a core part of the setting. people wear armor because they have too, including a helmet. Take 8 points of damage to a limb- limb is gone. Take 8 points to the head- dead. and in a setting with common pistols that do 2d6 or more damage on the regular and rifles that can spray a room with multiple 4d6 damage projectiles, you learn that on the mean streets of night city, you wear armor, you keep your eyes open, and you shoot first, or you die.

I really hope they keep this lethality in the Cyberpunk 2077 game, even if they likely have to tone it down a bit. A player should not be able to be dropped in the middle of a room of gangers and survive without extenuating circumstances (read: severe cover, stuns, strobes, etc...) you shouldnt even want to take on multiple enemies at once unless you are attacking from a defensible position and have the drop on them.

This lethality is what drives cyberpunks themes home. The theme that in order to survive, you have to more than human. The setting should drive you to get the best of the best gear. Die in one shot, or a volley of shots? The solution is to get armor. But you can only wear so much. How do you get more? Cybertech. How do you fight better? Cybertech. The lethality of the world forces the player to want to cyber-augment themselves, rather than it being something that the game tells you to do, or forcing you to do it ala Jensen of Deus Ex. And by having players make that choice they are actively engaging the dilemma of whether they should keep their humanity and risk their lives, or cyber-augment themselves and potentially lose themselves. That, at its core, is what cyberpunk is. A world where everything has slowly degraded into a pit of individuals part way between human and monster, where you can't be sure who is sane and who wants you for the parts you have. where in order to be safe from the psychos, you have to risk becoming one yourself.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

You seem to be assuming CP2077 will be an all out FPS.

It might well be (where combat is concerned), they've implied as much with the "it's about player skill" statements of old.

 

[Suhiira]

It might well be (where combat is concerned), they've implied as much with the "it's about player skill" statements of old.

Skill can also imply tactical planning not just your ability to twitch.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Skill can also imply tactical planning not just your ability to twitch.

It can, but they've also said they're doing their best to not have stats affect combat much at all, and all those other old statements I memorized because they felt like a bad omen already back then. So it kinda goes counter to that.

Anything can happen, of course... except obviously for turnbased combat.... and hopefully something passable does. I'm just saying that it'd be logical for the combat portion to be "an all out FPS" in a game of this caliber.

Nevermind, though. I'm just venting out frustration...

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

It can, but they've also said they're doing their best to not have stats affect combat much at all, and all those other old statements I memorized because they felt like a bad omen already back then. So it kinda goes counter to that.

Anything can happen, of course... except obviously for turnbased combat.... and hopefully something passable does. I'm just saying that it'd be logical for the combat portion to be "an all out FPS" in a game of this caliber.

Nevermind, though. I'm just venting out frustration...

I have little faith in them designing great combat or gameplay in general, however they've hired a lot of new people for Cyberpunk so we will see. This will be their last chance to impress me because so far there pretty mediocre at best developer that is grossly overrated.