Other games and Cyberpunk 2077: what could latter borrow from them?

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Suhiira;n9992391 said:
Actually we saw it coming with Fallout 3.

I didn't know who Bethesda was back then (I didn't care much about who does it as long as it's good). I knew of Oblivion and earlier TES games, but I seriously did not anticipate that they'd just repaint Oblivion for their Fallout 3 because it made no sense at all (and still doesn't). Then, when it was revealed and the trailer had come out, I just watched it over and over again slackjawed... "What the fuck is this shit? Weren't they supposed to make a Fallout game?"
 
Sardukhar;n9995431 said:
Yeah CDPR said as much. Which is good, since I find Su's definition of "player skill" to be way too limited. She means physical skill shouldn't be involved, but mental, tactical skills are fine. That's no more fair than physical skill, I think.

It'll be a tough balance.

Do you know if they said it would be similar to TW3's system? What do you mean by they "said as much"? I must have missed that quote.

Jesus, I wish they'd give us some info before E3 next year.
 
BeastModeIron;n9995991 said:
Is this an action RPG? It seems that way <clip>
That would be the term I'd think would apply.
But hopefully with more RPG elements then most of the other Action RPGs out there.
Doom, Diablo, Dark Souls ... just to name a few that start with 'D'.

No doubt many people would be overjoyed if CP2077 was that type of game, I just won't be one of them.
 
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Suhiira;n9999471 said:
That would be the term I'd think would apply.
But hopefully with more RPG elements then most of the other Action RPGs out there.
Doom, Diablo, Dark Souls ... just to name a few that start with 'D'.

No doubt many people would be overjoyed if CP2077 was that type of game, I just won't be one of them.

Doom is an action RPG? Wat

I really don't think 2077 is going to be anything like any of those games. They are completely different from each other, and completely different from the sort of game CDPR makes. Dark Souls is only similar to TW3 as far as combat goes, everything else (from pacing to story to even the RPG systems themselves) is totally different. Diablo is a pile of steaming garbage (III, anyway) and also a completely different type of RPG than the others.

Doom is an FPS with no RPG mechanics, unless I'm missing something? I played it for a few hours and didn't come across any RPG systems.

That said, CP2077 will almost definitely be an action RPG, simply by virtue of it having shooting combat and being a non-isometric, non-turn-based RPG. It will be more "Action"-based, but that doesn't mean it will totally ignore its roots, either.

I think one area where I disagree with you, Su, is the whole "player skill" vs "character skill" thing.

I'm fine with having character skill affect the player - as I said, slower reload times, wobbly aim, a number of other factors that reflect a character's lack of weapons skills - but in an RPG like this, if I aim my gun at somebody and fire (And I didn't miss), I don't want the game telling me "oh you missed because you suck at guns l0l".

No, if I'm aiming at the dude, struggling against the drawbacks of having low weapon skills, and my shot should connect, it should connect. I've never fired a gun in my life (well, a couple times), but if I'm aiming a pistol at someone and I fire, unless they move or my hand shakes significantly or I miss at the last second, it should hit them. It shouldn't just be a dice roll. Not in an open world, what appears to be more "Realistic" RPG. I agree with Beast here. It's possible to balance the two.

You have to make some allowances for the type of game this will likely be. Similar deal with the Witcher 3 - I swing my sword at an enemy, and it connects as long as I actually aimed properly and I was within range. It wasn't a "oh you rolled a 1 so you miss". There's nothing wrong with that sort of system, but that already exists in other games. Let CDPR blend the two if they please. I don't want Pillars of Eternity - Cyberpunk, or Never Winter Nights - Cyberpunk.

But that's just me.
 
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Snowflakez;n9999581 said:
Doom is an action RPG? Wat
New Doom has levels and gear upgrades ... yep ... it's an RPG according to many.
OK ... Old Doom is maybe a pure Action game ...

(( Edited to clarify which version of Doom I was referring to. ))
 
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Suhiira;n9999471 said:
That would be the term I'd think would apply.
But hopefully with more RPG elements then most of the other Action RPGs out there.
Doom, Diablo, Dark Souls ... just to name a few that start with 'D'.

No doubt many people would be overjoyed if CP2077 was that type of game, I just won't be one of them.

Curious as to what type of game you want 2077 to be? Not quite sure I understand. On the RPG mechanics and gameplay specifically, could you elaborate?
 
Suhiira;n9999611 said:
Doom had levels and skills ... yep ... it's an RPG according to many.
I have no idea what you're talking about Suhiira.Doom literally had none of that.
Suhiira;n9999611 said:
OK ... Doom is maybe a pure Action game ...
There's no debate to be had on this subject.There's no "maybe".Doom is not an RPG,period.
Snowflakez;n9999581 said:
I'm fine with having character skill affect the player - as I said, slower reload times, wobbly aim, a number of other factors that reflect a character's lack of weapons skills - but in an RPG like this, if I aim my gun at somebody and fire (And I didn't miss), I don't want the game telling me "oh you missed because you suck at guns l0l".
This^ ,in my opinion,is the best and most genuine way of portraying a character's skill when it come to firearms.I would also add that being more proficient with a firearm should not translate to more damage.I know a lot of people here don't care about something like that and that's fine but,personally,I absolutely hate it when you level up your skill and magically the bullets start going farther,faster and hit harder.This sort of thing works for melee combat but not for guns.

 
Sardukhar;n10000891 said:
New Doom has upgrades for your character and your gear.

Action RPG.
I hope you're not serious.By that logic 80% of all games ever made are "Action RPGs".

Edit: Just a few examples of games that become "action RPGs" if we use this logic:
Metroid,Assassin's Creed,Castlevania,God of War,Swat,Infamous,Rainbow Six,Devil May Cry,,Metal Gear,Heroes of the Storm[...]*half a year later*-Resident Evil,Crysis,Ninja Gaiden [...]*10 years later*-Far Cry,Time Clickers,Legacy of Kain.......*dies*

Action Adventure?Yes.Action RPG?No.
 
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Snowflakez;n9999581 said:
I'm fine with having character skill affect the player - as I said, slower reload times, wobbly aim, a number of other factors that reflect a character's lack of weapons skills - but in an RPG like this, if I aim my gun at somebody and fire (And I didn't miss), I don't want the game telling me "oh you missed because you suck at guns l0l".
Mefris;n10000701 said:
This^ ,in my opinion,is the best and most genuine way of portraying a character's skill when it come to firearms.I would also add that being more proficient with a firearm should not translate to more damage.I know a lot of people here don't care about something like that and that's fine but,personally,I absolutely hate it when you level up your skill and magically the bullets start going farther,faster and hit harder.This sort of thing works for melee combat but not for guns.
Agreed with all of this.

Slower reloads, wobbly aim, target focuses more slowly after movement, slower draw time, greater recoil effect. No damage effects.

I think it would be cool if the the game gave the user a 10% chance to still have the safety on first shot after drawing a weapon, that goes by 5% each skill point invested in firearms. So once you're at least somewhat proficient it doesn't happen anymore.
 
Mefris;n10001001 said:
I hope you're not serious.By that logic 80% of all games ever made are "Action RPGs".

####################
Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat (where the player has direct control over characters) over turn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games.
####################
A role-playing game system is a set of game mechanics used in a role-playing game (RPG) to determine the outcome of a character's in-game actions.
####################

Note that in an Action RPG player control of the character is stressed, and in a "Classsic" RPG the game mechanics determining the outcome of a characters actions is.
Due to this fundamental difference between the two no matter how many RPG elements you tack onto an action game it will never be a "classic" RPG.

I have no problem with people loving and preferring action-RPGs, I just don't think every game has to be one. I'd like to see CDPR make a CP2077 a classic-RPG is all. Or at least permit it to be played as one, rather then making it yet another action-RPG as the only option. I've never demanded it be a classic-RPG, I'm just begging for it to allow that option.
 
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Suhiira;n10001271 said:
####################
Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat (where the player has direct control over characters) overturn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games.
####################
A role-playing game system is a set of game mechanics used in a role-playing game (RPG) to determine the outcome of a character's in-game actions.
####################

Note that in an Action RPG player control of the character is stressed, and in a "Classsic" RPG the game mechanics determining the outcome of a characters actions is.
Due to this fundamental difference between the two no matter how many RPG elements you tack onto an action game it will never be a "classic" RPG.

I have no problem with people loving and preferring action-RPGs, I just don't think every game has to be one. I'd like to see CDPR make a CP2077 a classic-RPG is all. Or at least permit it to be played as one, rather then making it yet another action-RPG as the only option. I've never demanded it be a classic-RPG, I'm just begging for it to allow that option.

I respect that, but I wouldn't get your hopes up. Those are two totally different design philosophies. That's not to say the two can't overlap in meaningful, interesting ways, but having both as totally separate options in one game seems unlikely to me. I can't think of many other games that do that. It sounds fine on paper to say "just make it an option", but it is extra development time because while they aren't re-making the game, they are having to make two totally different progression systems and two totally different styles of gameplay to satisfy two crowds.

Not impossible, nor would I be against it, just unlikely. If you go into it expecting an ARPG with more hardcore RPG elements (as we'd expect if Pondsmith signed off on it), you'll be much less likely to be disappointed.
 
Rawls;n10001091 said:
I think it would be cool if the the game gave the user a 10% chance to still have the safety on first shot after drawing a weapon, that goes by 5% each skill point invested in firearms. So once you're at least somewhat proficient it doesn't happen anymore.
That would be awesome and hilarious at the same time!The forum would be full of "Y u du dis CDPR?*Got killed because of safety.Pls fix*" threads like when people lost their shit over the jammable weapons in Far Cry 2 and Stalker but hey,I'm not a mod so all this would result in even more hilarity for me.

Speaking of weapons jamming,I would be over the moon if weapons could jam after prolonged use without maintenance.They've already ventured in that direction with the Witcher but I feel Cyberpunk would benefit alot more from something like this since it has firearms.

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Suhiira;n10001271 said:
#################### Action role-playing video games (abbreviated action RPG or ARPG) are a subgenre of role-playing video games. The games emphasize real-time combat (where the player has direct control over characters) overturn-based or menu-based combat. These games often use action game combat systems similar to hack and slash or shooter games. #################### A role-playing game system is a set of game mechanics used in a role-playing game (RPG) to determine the outcome of a character's in-game actions. ####################
I don't understand how this pertains to or dispproves what I said about Doom not being an ARPG (emphasis on RPG).
 
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Mefris;n10001341 said:
Speaking of weapons jamming,I would be over the moon if weapons could jam after prolonged use without maintenance.They've already ventured in that direction with the Witcher but I feel Cyberpunk would benefit alot more from something like this since it has firearms.

This would be very cool - and totally in line with the PnP setting. 1/10 times you'll get a fumble and depending on the reliability of your weapon, it's either a simple miss or (80% of the time for an unreliable weapon) a jam.
 
Mefris;n10001341 said:
That would be awesome and hilarious at the same time!The forum would be full of "Y u du dis CDPR?*Got killed because of safety.Pls fix*" threads like when people lost their shit over the jammable weapons in Far Cry 2 and Stalker but hey,I'm not a mod so all this would result in even more hilarity for me.

Speaking of weapons jamming,I would be over the moon if weapons could jam after prolonged use without maintenance.They've already ventured in that direction with the Witcher but I feel Cyberpunk would benefit alot more from something like this since it has firearms.

Edit:

I don't understand how this pertains to or dispproves what I said about Doom not being an ARPG (emphasis on RPG).

I loved Far Cry 2, despite its many flaws. Weapon jamming and eventual breaking was one of the reasons. Really wish they'd expanded upon that style rather than going in such a different direction, but oh well. I'd be happy to see some sort of durability system here, if it wasn't too ridiculous (like BoTW level). It's in the PnP, the Witcher had it, don't see any reason not to have it here in some way.
 
Mefris;n10001341 said:
I don't understand how this pertains to or dispproves what I said about Doom not being an ARPG (emphasis on RPG).
Please see the amended and edited post ... I neglected to mention I was talking about New Doom not Old Doom.
 
Snowflakez;n10001491 said:
I loved Far Cry 2, despite its many flaws. Weapon jamming and eventual breaking was one of the reasons. Really wish they'd expanded upon that style rather than going in such a different direction, but oh well.
Maybe I'm seeing it through rose tinted glasses now but I still think it's the best in the series (with Blood Dragon coming second).The "feedback" they got definitely pushed them away from trying things like that again.Well,I'm glad at least that games like The Long Dark are starting to give weapon jamming a try again.There's a lot of potential in this area of mechanics IMO and the only way to discover it is if they give it a fair shot.

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Suhiira;n10001561 said:
Please see the amended and edited post ... I neglected to mention I was talking about New Doom not Old Doom.
I didn't think for a second you were talking about the orginal.
Suhiira;n9999611 said:
New Doom has levels[...]
Unless you're talking about the levels in the world or the ranks in multiplayer no,it doesn't.And even if it did I don't see how that would automatically make it an RPG.
[...]and gear upgrades ...
Yeah,like every single action adventure game ever made.Assassin's Creed has that,God Of War,Devil May Cry etc.None of them are RPGs.
[...]yep ... it's an RPG according to many.
According to WHO Su?Certainly not the devs or the fans of the series.You can't find a single thread on this topic on their entire forum,a forum full of RPG fans I might add.Doom has zero roleplay involved.You go through levels killing stuff,picking up power ups and upgrading you're gear through challanges,Again,thats basically every other action adventure game ever made.
OK ... Old Doom is maybe a pure Action game ... (( Edited to clarify which version of Doom I was referring to. ))
You realize Doom and Wolf 3D are the quintessential first person shooters,right?

 
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Rant incoming

I genuinely did not realize people considered a game an ARPG just if it has a skill system. I'm not sure I care for that, honestly. I mean, is the new Assassin's Creed: Origins an RPG? Well, I guess it is technically more of an RPG than Doom in many ways, but you get the drift.

Are the Far Cry games (3+) ARPGs? What about the Evil Within 2? Deus Ex: Mankind Divided...? Steamworld Heist?!

I mean, come on... Does every game on the planet need to be an "Action RPG"? Can it just be an action game if its, y'know, 99.99% action-based? Can't it just be a strategy game? Or a WTF-ever game? Virtually every game that comes out has a skill system of some kind, some even have levels.

Suddenly you have games like the Witcher 3 (which, like it or not, is a much better example of an "action RPG" than Doom ever was) sitting alongside games like Far Cry: Freakin' Blood Dragon.

Just seems ridiculous to me. But I digress. The public has apparently spoken.

I'm expecting 2077 to blend RPG and Action in a more clear and balanced way, making itself much more deserving of the ARPG label, but we'll see I guess.
 
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Snowflakez;n10004231 said:
I genuinely did not realize people considered a game an ARPG just if it has a skill system. I'm not sure I care for that, honestly. I mean, is the new Assassin's Creed: Origins an RPG? Well, I guess it is technically more of an RPG than Doom in many ways, but you get the drift.

Skill systems and perk trees are very common in games nowadays, even in racing simulators like F1 2017.

I mean, come on... Does every game on the planet need to be an "Action RPG"? Can it just be an action game if its, y'know, 99.99% action-based? Can't it just be a strategy game? Or a WTF-ever game? Virtually every game that comes out has a skill system of some kind, some even have levels.

It depends on the definition of action RPG, does it mean having some sort of skill system and/or character upgrades like in BioShock (2007), or a "create your adventure" interactive story with dialogue choices like in Life is Strange (where the character is fixed on the other hand), or a combination of both? Witcher 3 has a skill system and story/quest/dialogue choices, although there is not much interaction between the two other than the occasional Axii option in dialogues, and most of the skills serve the purpose of enhancing Geralt's effectiveness in combat. But whatever an action RPG exactly is, chances are CP2077 will be something along those lines, so there will be differences compared to the PnP.
 
sv3672;n10004331 said:
It depends on the definition of action RPG, does it mean having some sort of skill system and/or character upgrades like in BioShock (2007), or a "create your adventure" interactive story with dialogue choices like in Life is Strange (where the character is fixed on the other hand), or a combination of both?

Precisely what I'm trying to figure out. It seems people think a skill system alone (and possibly multiple-choice dialogue?) makes a game an RPG. Not people in these forums, necessarily, but just the general public. It boggles my mind.

sv3672;n10004331 said:
But whatever an action RPG exactly is, chances are CP2077 will be something along those lines, so there will be differences compared to the PnP.

Indeed. I think it will be closer to a "true" RPG than TW3 simply because of it's PnP roots, but it's not going to be a 1-to-1 (or even 3-to-1) transition, and it's ultimately impossible to tell at this stage. Once we see some gameplay we should have a pretty good idea of what sort of game it's going to be.
 
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