Older Release Date and General Speculation Thread.

[Sardukhar]

We have never had a 80s retrofuturistic open world game EVER. the transhuman 90s cyberpunk is BLAH. not interested.

It hurts me in EVERY WAY to say this, but I totally agree with animal.

And I like Eclipse Phase...it's just not Cyberpunk.

I think the charm of 2077 is going to be when they blend the 80/early90s fashion and style with high tech and futureshock culture.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Doesn't Far Cry: Blood Dragon count?

 

[Garrison72]

Doesn't Far Cry: Blood Dragon count?

No.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Looks like an 80s retrofuturistic open world game to me.

 

[Harthwain]

Cyberpunk, as the 80's envisioned it, is dead. Early cyberpunk played up the fears of the era, of a financially successful Japan that had immense influence and lording over our declining America and its moral rot. A lot of the stuff simply does not apply anymore (particularly the godawful made-up jargon), and it'd be a mistake to try to cling to that old idea of what the future would be like in a genre that's all about confronting our rose-tinted views of the future.

Transhumanism's the big deal nowadays, and I think 2077 can have a lot more success if it made itself a reaction to modern transhumanism. [...]

To hell with trying to juggle the mental gymnastics of making the old 2020 canon when it quite clearly can't be. Extrapolate from today, from twenty minutes in the future, make it address today's concerns as we face down Big Brother and ponder the motivations of Google. Where we buy the latest electronics just to toss them out two years later for the new model. Where poor people are duped into buying more than they can afford and being plunged into debt over that couch they had no business buying. [...]

I think that's a better way to go about this than clamoring for how cyberpunk used to be.

What needs to be redone is not cyberpunk as a concept (like you said it: "Extrapolate from today, from twenty minutes in the future, make it address today's concerns". That's pretty much it). Transhumanism is but one facet of a greater whole. It should not be the focus only because "it's the big deal nowadays". Cyberpunk is larger than that. So while I can agree that cyberpunk of 80's "is dead" (in a way) I can't agree that emphasis on transhumanism is the way to go.

On related note I would be surprised to see a return to 80's/90's fashion and style (like the whole game being designed that way). We are to extrapolate into the future, but from the present. How much 80's and 90's we have around now? It might not be a big deal in the end, but it'll jar me a bit if only reason for so doing is nostalgia. It'll scream: "This isn't the future! This stuff never came to pass to begin with! How you expect me to take your vision of the future seriously?!". A bit immersion breaking. It'd be acceptable in an alternate reality, but in the future? Not so much. And if someone claims that without "a proper" art style "the game would no longer be cyberpunk" then it's clear to me he does not understand what cyberpunk is in the first place.

 

[Suhiira]

Actually quite a bit from the 80s and 90s is still around.
Clothing styles have been fairly consistent since the 80's (no 60s neon/tie-dye or 70s polyester).
Vehicle styles also have been fairly consistent (a car from the 80s looks pretty much the same as one you'd buy now - yeah new ones have more gizmos in them but the body style is about the same).
While cell phones have become MUCH more versatile the basic concept of portable communications started then.
The internet has blossomed but it really got got going in the 80s.

 

[Maelcom404]

People should read more cyberpunk outside of Gibson :/
Transhumanism means nothing, except for "random dude with implant".
It's just enhancing your body.
What is supposed to be the background in "transhumanism"?

Cyberpunk is mostly about transhumanism, but transhumanism isn't about cyberpunk
Just look at the tv show "real human"

It's filled with transhumanism themes and all, "what make us human? can a robot become an human then?"
Yes it's cool, I recomend this show to everyone, but I'll suckerpunch the first person to call it "cyberpunk".

In Gibson, sure, Neuromancer is all about "omg, japan is badass" (mostly because... it happens in Japan), and to be honnest, Japan keep on ruling on a lot of things today, just check the "Toyota management guide", it's pretty creepy, and no, it's not cyberpunk, it's real life...
But check out some Sterling, Spinrad, Jon Williams, etc...
They barely talk about japan, or whatever, but it's all in the mood and all those things, you can still see our today's world in a over-the-top way.

And just to add this, in Cyberpunk 2077 it'll be almost once century that people hang around with cyber-body parts or implants, I think that no one give a fuck about the "transhumanism" anymore, it's common
Today, we're not like "Omg a Cellphone! where are we going? are we still humans?"
We all have phones, etc... It doesn't scare anyone.

Now, just tell you that, in the cyberpunk 2077 world, they've dealed with cybernetics for longer than we have deal with cellphones and internet, so yes, excepted for a bunch of luddite, no one freak about cybernetics, it's all part of their world.

Now, it's what cyberpunk is supposed to be.
You don't "freak" about hi-tech, you just deal your daily shitty life, as a random person in a city populated by billions.
Cyberpunk is more about the "social" than the "Tech".
From a cyberpunk game, I'd expect a lot of work on the "social" side, with a lot of critics on our today world, not in a "direct" way (it's not Michael Moore lol), but by building a world, similar to our, pushed in the future, and pulling all the broken things over the top.

In 80's cyberpunk, they talked about rise of megacorporations eating the smaller one, the ultra rich living in their crystal city, explosion of poverty, no more work, no "social-evolution" because a bunch of fuckers keep the pie for themselves, etc...
Now, come tell me it's no more connected to the today world, a lot of country has a high unemployement rate, big corporation put people in the street and move their manufactures in the third world (an Iphone costs 5$ to build, and Apple use a 300% rent over it, so you just pay 600$ for nothing).

I don't want to go in a "politic" thread, but come on, Cyberpunk is more about "the people" than the tech.
I want Cyberpunk 2077 to present our current world, pushed in the future, if 80's cyberpunk was grim, and seeing that it somewhat happens today, the 2077's one should be even more hardcore. So people can think about those things and say "wow, it's true that if you look at this like this... it's fucked up", but in a neutral way, so everybody can make their own opinion about it.

Deus Ex was more "Transhumanist", you know, because the main character was "out of the screen", he was one of the only people with advanced cybernetics (when you look in the street, most people don't wear any, it's mostly for cops/security/thugs).
It revolved only about the fact the main character had his body changed, but beyond that... we had the Illuminati, sorry but that was just plain retarded.


Cyberpunk isn't dead, stop looking at the "box", and look what is inside, it's still fresh, and maybe fresher than "Star Wars Episode VII" that everybody know what to expect from.

Damn, we have hackers, Anonymous, politics going crazy, Google working on their "Wintermute IA-like", etc...
And you tell me that "Cyberpunk" is outdated?

Just give it a fresh look, update the "social" and "tech" side of it, and you have something up in it's time.
It's still more relevant to us and our world than "The witcher", or any "fantasy" world.
Sure, people would freak about it being all "politics / anarchist / No God - No Master", but hey...
It's Cyberpunk, it's just how it's supposed to be.

I know most people only have read "Neuromancer", but even if it has "launched" the style, Cyberpunk is far to be limited to it, it's a dense universe, adding stuff from book to book, author to author.

The only thing that worries me about Cyberpunk 2077 are the art-style, the gameplay and the "political" side out of it, because it's just what makes Cyberpunk "Cyberpunk".
Removing all of this would be like doing a Doom without guns and gore or whatever. I hope CDPR will really read a lot of books, the source material and really "nail" the core of Cyberpunk, because it's not just "bulky tech from blade runner", it's so much than this, and I'm really scared that they would miss the shot.

If they release a generic sci-fi game with not much to chew on "background wise", I'm honnestly not interested :/
Even if it looks like Blade Runner, that's not what Cyberpunk is about.

Cyberpunk is a setting, it's not an art style.

The same when people talk about "punk" and just come with the same old "The Clash, the Exploited, Sex Pistols, etc..."
the Punk "scene" is so much more than this, and the Cyberpunk is directly connected to the "Hardcore Punk" stain of mind.

Remove the hardcore punk from Cyberpunk and you have something... which isn't Cyberpunk, it's just Deux Ex with attitude, and it would suck.

I want to tag "Fuck Arasaka" on the wall and have a good reason to do it, more than "because they are the bad guys, it's written in the notice, you know, Illuminatis and Reptilian".

 

[Helmic]

We have never had a 80s retrofuturistic open world game EVER. the transhuman 90s cyberpunk is BLAH. not interested.

Cyberpunk 2020, the version most people are familiar with, was released in 1990. Transhumanism didn't really take off until later, though Ghost in the Shell certainly moved the genre past the "omg muh humanity" roadblock.

I don't know about you, but given how the the game looks to be taking itself seriously, it'd be very hard to accomplish that with a retrofuturistic take. That's why I posted about Cyberpunk 2077 being more successful as a scathing reaction to modern transhumanism than as a straight up retro throwback. Cyberpunk needs to be relevant to have its impact, sticking to 80's trappings isn't going to accomplish that.

What needs to be redone is not cyberpunk as a concept (like you said it: "Extrapolate from today, from twenty minutes in the future, make it address today's concerns". That's pretty much it). Transhumanism is but one facet of a greater whole. It should not be the focus only because "it's the big deal nowadays". Cyberpunk is larger than that. So while I can agree that cyberpunk of 80's "is dead" (in a way) I can't agree that emphasis on transhumanism is the way to go.

On related note I would be surprised to see a return to 80's/90's fashion and style (like the whole game being designed that way). We are to extrapolate into the future, but from the present. How much 80's and 90's we have around now? It might not be a big deal in the end, but it'll jar me a bit if only reason for so doing is nostalgia. It'll scream: "This isn't the future! This stuff never came to pass to begin with! How you expect me to take your vision of the future seriously?!". A bit immersion breaking. It'd be acceptable in an alternate reality, but in the future? Not so much. And if someone claims that without "a proper" art style "the game would no longer be cyberpunk" then it's clear to me he does not understand what cyberpunk is in the first place.

I agree, cyberpunk as that concept is a lot more fundamental to the genre than the specifics we so strongly associate with its 80's incarnation. I don't think mirrorshades are going to come back, or the silly made-up slang (Shadowrun Returns and Dragonfall handle this pretty well, you'll hear a chummer here or there but it's not enough to get in the way of well-written dialogue).

However, transhumanism is pretty dominate in modern sci-fi. It's about how becoming less human is going to make the world a better place. To bring up Eclipse Phase, the transhumanist anarchists are the good guys and the people who don't have multiple sleeves are the bigoted bad guys trying unsuccessfully to stop the progress of humanity. Capitalism is mostly good because rep keeps everyone in check.

An updated cyberpunk very much needs to address this view. Transhumanism is MUCH larger than cyberpunk now, it's not simply a facet of cyberpunk. There's a lot of people pushing IRL transhumanist concepts at this moment. There's a surprising number of people pushing for sapient AI rights at this minute. There's big projects dedicated to stuff like BINA 48.

And that stuff is just prime for ripping apart in a cyberpunk world. Why do we assume that mind uploads are somehow going to grant us immortality, or make life better for the everyman? Who could possibly afford a mind emulation device, and is it really going to amount to much more than a posthumous chatterbot that knows some of your old catchphrases? Why in the world are we going to trust corporations to care about rep if there's such an information divide between them and the people they spy on?

I really do think that transhumanism needs to be the main focus. There is a lot of material available to deconstruct that would lend itself very well to what we consider cyberpunk. Dystopian cities where corporations exist in their own little bubble while everyone else has to deal with humanoid weapons platforms losing their shit in the middle of the street.

People should read more cyberpunk outside of Gibson :/
Transhumanism means nothing, except for "random dude with implant".
It's just enhancing your body.
What is supposed to be the background in "transhumanism"?

Transhumanism is a lot more than "random dude with implant" and in fact more modern forms of it abandon the idea of implants altogether in favor of something like resleeving or even having all of humanity exist digitally. Transhumanism is the concept that we need to move past being human and become posthuman, and so transhumanist fiction is typically utopian in nature. If there's any downsides to being posthuman, it's all that prejudice from those dumber unuplifted humans.

Cyberpunk is mostly about transhumanism, but transhumanism isn't about cyberpunk

As it was in the 80's? Maybe, you'll see a lot of people bringing up the other parts of it, but I'm not too concerned about arguing whether it was or was not.

And just to add this, in Cyberpunk 2077 it'll be almost once century that people hang around with cyber-body parts or implants, I think that no one give a fuck about the "transhumanism" anymore, it's common
Today, we're not like "Omg a Cellphone! where are we going? are we still humans?"
We all have phones, etc... It doesn't scare anyone.

A big part of the trailer was the idea of cyberpsychos wandering the streets. I'm saying actually modifying your body to have unremovable weapons is going to be a lot harder to accept than cell phones. Plus I'm not particularly enamored with the idea that the canon of 2013/2020 be strictly adhered to when it conflicts with reality, and I'd probably just not play the game if v3 is considered canon in the slightest. Cybernetics may or may not be a new thing in 2077, but that's not going to mean people are going to be happy about it, not any more than people are happy about having dissociative disorders today or think that school shootings are totally fine. Desensitized, certainly, but no one sane is going to argue that these things aren't bad. Humanity doesn't accept everything like it does cell phones, America still has trouble accepting black people for Christ's sake.

Cyberpunk isn't dead, stop looking at the "box", and look what is inside, it's still fresh, and maybe fresher than "Star Wars Episode VII" that everybody know what to expect from.

80's cyberpunk is pretty dead, though. The OP's concerns about the game not being retro enough is pretty dumb, IMO. Cyberpunk can't survive as it was back then and having an art style that insists on looking like 80's ass probably isn't going to work out. What they have in the trailer is just about perfect.

Just give it a fresh look, update the "social" and "tech" side of it, and you have something up in it's time.

Pretty much what I'm advocating.

 

[Harthwain]

However, transhumanism is pretty dominate in modern sci-fi. It's about how becoming less human is going to make the world a better place. [...]

An updated cyberpunk very much needs to address this view. Transhumanism is MUCH larger than cyberpunk now, it's not simply a facet of cyberpunk. There's a lot of people pushing IRL transhumanist concepts at this moment. There's a surprising number of people pushing for sapient AI rights at this minute. There's big projects dedicated to stuff like BINA 48.[

And that stuff is just prime for ripping apart in a cyberpunk world. [...]

I really do think that transhumanism needs to be the main focus. There is a lot of material available to deconstruct that would lend itself very well to what we consider cyberpunk. Dystopian cities where corporations exist in their own little bubble while everyone else has to deal with humanoid weapons platforms losing their shit in the middle of the street.

It does not matter how dominate transhumanism is in modern sci-fi, because cyberpunk does not deal with modern sci-fi at all.

You make a pretty big leap between "an updated cyberpunk very much needs to address this view" and "I really do think that transhumanism needs to be the main focus". It speaks volumes that Mike Pondsmith considers Grand Thieft Auto to be "basically cyberpunk minus the hardware" while Deus Ex: Human Revolution is not considered to be about cyberpunk. And in a game called "Cyberpunk 2077" it should be about cyberpunk.

I'll post some of the more important quotes on the subject from here:

How do you think, why do some people perceive and understand the phenomenon of cyberpunk incorrectly?

People tend to focus on the tech side of cyberpunk rather than the human side. They often think that cybertech and big guns make something cyberpunk. But you can have those elements in the framework of a rather nice transhumanist setting where life is good and people are full of hope. No, cyberpunk is more about how the human elements like greed and the lust of power; human weakness and flaws, play out in the context of new technology. Cyberpunk isn't about the tech — it's about how that tech is USED. Here's an example. Cybernetics can be used to replace damaged or flawed body parts; to help people live better lives and to fix what nature has failed at. Or they can be used to create all powerful super soldier killers who crush less enhanced people in the name of powerful oligarchs.

Why cyberpunk is always about the future (what’s more, pretty far future), to your mind? Why not an alternative reality, for example? Does a «when» really play such a big role there?

WHEN is important because cyberpunk is about the journey you and I are taking to the future. Cyberpunk works because it's science fiction that we can experience in real life. You may never travel to the stars or use a light saber, but you can go downtown at midnight and get jumped by a boostergang NOW. So WHEN it happens — in this case the near future; a future we will live to see, is a critical element.

And another one from here:

Augments, of course, are a huge part of the Cyberpunk world. They are the focal point of the teaser trailer, which shows a squad of specialised police facing off against a woman who has gone too rather far with her biomechanical self-improvement regime. But Cyberpunk 2077 will not be about conflict between the augmented and the police; that Deus Ex: Human Revolution-style societal tension over the morality and ethics of augmentation is not at the centre of the story.

“The psycho squad is just one of many cool elements in this world," Sebastian explains. “We had several ideas for this short teaser and had to focus on one of them. Augmentations and cyberware is a big subject in the world, and that’s why it’s in the teaser. But it won’t be a game about police hunting cyber-psychos. That’s a sub-plot… The story will be low-level. We are not going to save the world, or even save a city. We are focused on the main character and his problems, or her problems.”

 

[Helmic]

It does not matter how dominate transhumanism is in modern sci-fi, because cyberpunk does not deal with modern sci-fi at all.

That's part of the problem. Cyberpunk, at least the 2020 variety, does not exist alongside advances in the genre. Compare this to something like Shadowrun which still manages to keep its dystopia while re-addressing things that matter today, magical elves or no. Now, cyberpunk as a genre? Of course it has everything to do with modern sci-fi, you can't take out the cyber and still call it cyberpunk, no matter what Pondsmith might be smoking.

You make a pretty big leap between "an updated cyberpunk very much needs to address this view" and "I really do think that transhumanism needs to be the main focus". It speaks volumes that Mike Pondsmith considers Grand Theft Auto to be "basically cyberpunk minus the hardware" while Deus Ex: Human Revolution is not considered to be about cyberpunk. And in a game called "Cyberpunk 2077" it should be about cyberpunk.

Again, appeals to Pondsmith don't mean much. This is the guy responsible for naked barbie dolls and factions that somehow exist in their own little bubbles. I don't disagree that GTA has the "punk" element, but that's relative to a certain time and place. Cyberpunk is about the near future, the idea that the world is not going to just get better because tech is there. While the punk part has been neglected, that doesn't mean neglected the tech part is somehow going to make it more cyberpunk.

You seem to be very much missing the crux of my argument, though. I'm not talking about making 2077 transhumanist, I'm talking about it addressing transhumanism, front and center. Where transhumanist media tends to be utopian, Cyberpunk 2077 needs to deconstruct that if it's to successfully convey WHY things are not going to get better. You can't just have gangs roaming the streets and call it cyberpunk, you have to have a setting that's similar enough to our own world that conveys WHY this might be a problem down the road.

Transhumanism has a lot of people imagining the future as so bright, that it will solve our problems. Cyberpunk 2077 will not exist in a vacuum, if it's not to be received as simply whiny about things changing then it needs to address this 800 pound gorilla in the room that insists the world's not going to end up like this. That can be sort of addressed by playing up the "punk" from years past, but that punk needs to be tied to the cyber to really push its point.

Why isn't augmentation moving us to a post-scarcity society? Is it corps pushing planned obsolescence so that people keep spending money on marginal improvements in hardware, lest they become outdated? Why is crime such a big issue, why isn't the surveillance state eliminating crime altogether? Are the police just not funded enough, are punks taking up facial recognition countermeasures, is most of the spying done by corporations who don't give a rat's ass about the welfare of the people they're spying on? What happened to immortality by uploading the human consciousness? Is it too expensive for most people to ever use, is it just not proving feasible, is it the domain of the desperate or suicidal? Why is the world such a shithole when we've been told science will make things all better?

How do you think, why do some people perceive and understand the phenomenon of cyberpunk incorrectly?

People tend to focus on the tech side of cyberpunk rather than the human side. They often think that cybertech and big guns make something cyberpunk. But you can have those elements in the framework of a rather nice transhumanist setting where life is good and people are full of hope. No, cyberpunk is more about how the human elements like greed and the lust of power; human weakness and flaws, play out in the context of new technology. Cyberpunk isn't about the tech — it's about how that tech is USED. Here's an example. Cybernetics can be used to replace damaged or flawed body parts; to help people live better lives and to fix what nature has failed at. Or they can be used to create all powerful super soldier killers who crush less enhanced people in the name of powerful oligarchs.

This just underlines my point. None of this is possible without addressing transhumanism. "Cybernetics can be used to replace damaged or flawed body parts; to help people live better lives and to fix what nature has failed at. Or they can be used to create all powerful super soldier killers who crush less enhanced people in the name of powerful oligarchs." That is exactly the sort of deconstruction that's needed for 2077's setting to really be successful, it's taking some justification for a utopia (augmentation) and showing why it's not going to create a utopia.

Why cyberpunk is always about the future (what’s more, pretty far future), to your mind? Why not an alternative reality, for example? Does a «when» really play such a big role there?

WHEN is important because cyberpunk is about the journey you and I are taking to the future. Cyberpunk works because it's science fiction that we can experience in real life. You may never travel to the stars or use a light saber, but you can go downtown at midnight and get jumped by a boostergang NOW. So WHEN it happens — in this case the near future; a future we will live to see, is a critical element.

This is absolutely critical. This is why transhumanism needs to be addressed. 2077 is a long way away and not everyone on this board can expect to live that long. If we're talking about 60 years worth of technological progress, then Cyberpunk 2077 needs to explain WHY things are going to end up like this and not the bright future everyone else is predicting. The future needs to be believable if it's to feel immediate.

Augments, of course, are a huge part of the Cyberpunk world. They are the focal point of the teaser trailer, which shows a squad of specialised police facing off against a woman who has gone too rather far with her biomechanical self-improvement regime. But Cyberpunk 2077 will not be about conflict between the augmented and the police; that Deus Ex: Human Revolution-style societal tension over the morality and ethics of augmentation is not at the centre of the story.

“The psycho squad is just one of many cool elements in this world," Sebastian explains. “We had several ideas for this short teaser and had to focus on one of them. Augmentations and cyberware is a big subject in the world, and that’s why it’s in the teaser. But it won’t be a game about police hunting cyber-psychos. That’s a sub-plot… The story will be low-level. We are not going to save the world, or even save a city. We are focused on the main character and his problems, or her problems.”

This is largely unrelated. Transhumanism is more than augmentation, and all this is saying is that cops versus cyberpsychos isn't going to be the main part of the plot.

 

[Harthwain]

That's part of the problem. Cyberpunk, at least the 2020 variety, does not exist alongside advances in the genre. Compare this to something like Shadowrun which still manages to keep its dystopia while re-addressing things that matter today, magical elves or no. Now, cyberpunk as a genre? Of course it has everything to do with modern sci-fi, you can't take out the cyber and still call it cyberpunk, no matter what Pondsmith might be smoking.

What gave you the idea about taking the cyber out of cyberpunk and still calling it cyberpunk? It has nothing to do with modern sci-fi, because cyberpunk extrapolates into the future. This fact alone negates any importance of trends in modern sci-fi genre. Cyberpunk is not about them. I don't understand why you draw connection here?

You seem to be very much missing the crux of my argument, though. I'm not talking about making 2077 transhumanist, I'm talking about it addressing transhumanism, front and center. Where transhumanist media tends to be utopian, Cyberpunk 2077 needs to deconstruct that if it's to successfully convey WHY things are not going to get better. You can't just have gangs roaming the streets and call it cyberpunk, you have to have a setting that's similar enough to our own world that conveys WHY this might be a problem down the road.

Actually that's what I am contesting - addressing transhumanism, front and center. Not addressing transhumanism in a way you describe it, but your expressed focus on it. Cyberpunk is not only about cyber. Cyberpunk is about anything that can happen in the future. This can be all of the stuff you mention, but not only so. To sum up: I agree with addressing transhumanism. I don't agree with neglecting non-cyber parts of cyberpunk though. Other than that we seem to be in agreement.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Pondsmith and naked barbie dolls? Wait what?
CP2077 shouldn't be the same old luddite tirade about technology.

The problem is that none of the big 80s-era fears realized. As interesting as the aesthetics might be, early cyberpunk as a movement was wrong. Some of the big CP names like Gibson had no clue about the tech they wrote about then or now.CDPR should think more like a Martin Scorsece, someone who will depict his subjects as is, without fluff.

Or if you want a more literary example closer to sci-fi, more akin to Phillip K. Dick or George Allec Effinger. It should definetly raise questions, but not in the paternalistic and idiotic way that Deus Ex: Human Revolutions did and certainly not with the focus to debunk a truly fringe ideology like transhumanism.

I generally agree with the direction Mr. Pondsmith intends to take the game: "Cyberpunk is not about saving the world, it's about saving yourself"

 

[Helmic]

What gave you the idea about taking the cyber out of cyberpunk and still calling it cyberpunk? It has nothing to do with modern sci-fi, because cyberpunk extrapolates into the future. This fact alone negates any importance of trends in modern sci-fi genre. Cyberpunk is not about them. I don't understand why you draw connection here?

Modern sci-fi doesn't address the future? What? Transhumanism offers a very conflicting account of the future, and it's going to be hard for the intended audience to accept this setting as believable if Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't make a big effort to address and deconstruct it. Transhumanism (modifying humanity) is more or less the future (as we currently imagine it), and so a cyberpunk setting that doesn't address transhumanism isn't addressing the future.

Actually that's what I am contesting - addressing transhumanism, front and center. Not addressing transhumanism in a way you describe it, but your expressed focus on it. Cyberpunk is not only about cyber. Cyberpunk is about anything that can happen in the future. This can be all of the stuff you mention, but not only so.

Well of course the setting is going to need to be about things other than just transhumanism, but that doesn't preclude transhumanism (the utopian view) from being the big focus. You can bring up racial tension in a cyberpunk setting and have it be a big part of the game, but it's a lot better if that racial tension is connected to transhumanism in some way (white people get more and better augmentations, foreigners are secretly bugged by Homeland Security to make sure they're not up to no good). Let there be a reason this story is set so far in the future, so that we can despair that our problems haven't gone away.

To sum up: I agree with addressing transhumanism. I don't agree with neglecting non-cyber parts of cyberpunk though. Other than that we seem to be in agreement.

I don't think we are in disagreement, either.

Pondsmith and naked barbie dolls? Wait what?

Spoiler

Look at it. Let it burn into your retinas and understand why I don't take Pondsmith seriously. Pondsmith can earn back everyone's respect if his contributions to 2077 turn out great.

CP2077 shouldn't be the same old luddite tirade about technology.

The setting is inherently technophobic. Augmentations make you go crazy and kill people in the street after all. <_<

There's a difference between technology causing problems or not solving problems and just refusing to use technology, though. Not getting augmented isn't going to make your life any better, it's just sort of required now if you want to get a halfway decent job. Which means the only people who can afford not to be poor are those that are already rich.

The problem is that none of the big 80s-era fears realized. As interesting as the aesthetics might be, early cyberpunk as a movement was wrong. Some of the big CP names like Gibson had no clue about the tech they wrote about then or now.CDPR should think more like a Martin Scorsece, someone who will depict his subjects as is, without fluff.

I very much agree with this. 80's cyberpunk is dead and gone and good riddance. The various depictions of hacking in particular is just... ugh. Hacking is not a spectator sport, the results of hacking a lot more entertaining than the actual process itself. I don't know of a single PnP system that handles hacking remotely well.

Or if you want a more literary example closer to sci-fi, more akin to Phillip K. Dick or George Allec Effinger. It should definetly raise questions, but not in the paternalistic and idiotic way that Deus Ex: Human Revolutions did and certainly not with the focus to debunk a truly fringe ideology like transhumanism.

I DIDN'T ASK FOR THIS

IRL, transhumanism is rather fringe, but in sci-fi media? It's pretty damn prevalent. I don't see where else cyberpunk could go except to shove transhumanism out of its way. Cyberpunk's a very cynical view of the future, and that puts it in stark contrast to a much more prevalent genre.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Look at it. Let it burn into your retinas and understand why I don't take Pondsmith seriously. Pondsmith can earn back everyone's respect if his contributions to 2077 turn out great.

I don't agree with much of Pondsmith is saying either. But I don't see why the naked barbie doll is such a bad thing.

Would be somewhat disappointed if I do not see cosmetic surgery feature somewhat prominently in CP2077.

There's a difference between technology causing problems or not solving problems and just refusing to use technology, though. Not getting augmented isn't going to make your life any better, it's just sort of required now if you want to get a halfway decent job. Which means the only people who can afford not to be poor are those that are already rich.

Maybe it is a staple of Mike Pondsmith's and early cyberpunk, but not inherently part of for example, Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell, When Gravity Fails et al.

Of course it is cynical, but the problem is... it's not true.If anything, tech has gotten much cheaper and more accessible as time went on. At the enterprise level, even tech that in the 90s were once the exclusive domain of very large enterprises (phone PBX and ERP systems) are now available to all through things like FOSS.

It's very hard to believe that most people would be forced to be augmented or else.I could see how for example a soldier might use it, but the amount of fat people in America is testimony to the uselessness of physical strength and reflexes in the work place.

Even if the mental aspects could be augmented, I have my doubts that it would be truly useful to most. I can honestly say, you do not need to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to make a very very decent amount of money.

Even if we stick to blue collar work... We assume the augmentations would be for general use (unless someone wants to have a machine meant to caps on bottle on a manufacturing floor in place of an arm ---- lol)..Why would augmentations be cheaper for a company then a specialized machine?

Rate of adoption for technology can be pretty darn slow as well. The reasons are many but much has to do with self-image and cultural bias.

 

[Harthwain]

Modern sci-fi doesn't address the future? What? Transhumanism offers a very conflicting account of the future, and it's going to be hard for the intended audience to accept this setting as believable if Cyberpunk 2077 doesn't make a big effort to address and deconstruct it. Transhumanism (modifying humanity) is more or less the future (as we currently imagine it), and so a cyberpunk setting that doesn't address transhumanism isn't addressing the future.

I am saying that cyberpunk should address the issues without looking on what modern sci-fi genre thinks or does, because cyberpunk is more grounded on relatively close future rather than genre's view on things (including what's important and what's not). While modifying humanity might be more or less the big thing in the future, level and reach is fairly questionable. Look at Cyberpunk 2020 for example. There is a lot of stuff we didn't even come near and we are 6 years short of reaching year 2020. Advancement is slower than anticipated.

 

[Hoplite_22]

I am saying that cyberpunk should address the issues without looking on what modern sci-fi genre thinks or does, because cyberpunk is more grounded on relatively close future rather than genre's view on things (including what's important and what's not). While modifying humanity might be more or less the big thing in the future, level and reach is fairly questionable. Look at Cyberpunk 2020 for example. There is a lot of stuff we didn't even come near and we are 6 years short of reaching year 2020. Advancement is slower than anticipated.

Advancement isn't slower so much as some things just aren't going to happen. For instance to really have a stronger than human cyber arm you also need to upgrade the skeleton so you don't just break everything else when using it. That could (depending on how it is replaced) end up with a compromised immune system since your bone marrow is pretty important part of it. it blossoms in to just how interconnected the systems on your body are and just how complex those systems are. Stuff Like 2020 just had no idea how complicated they where.

 

[Sardukhar]

Stuff Like 2020 just had no idea how complicated they where.

Cyberpunk 2020 discusses this in the cyberware section, on why you can't pick up a car with your cyberarm. Your cyberarm doesn't add to your BOD stat. The also cover surgery and recovery times for implantation and why it's necessary.

R.Tal had a pretty good idea about how these things might work - they did a crap-ton of research.

 

[Maelcom404]

The thing is, as you said, Transhumanism is "Utopist", where Cyberpunk is "Dystopic"
I agree on transhumanism and all, but it's already the case in cyberpunk (the game, 2020), everybody wears cybernetics, even bums, it's very common.
That's what I meant by "Transhumanism is already there", people are all upgraded at some point.

The main difference, IMO, which make transhumanism somewhat "obsolete" in cyberpunk (still the game), is because it shows you clearly that, even with all the better intentions, and the most "utopic" way of bringing the tech, if you don't change people's mind, tech just makes the problem bigger, it doesn't solve anything.

Sure, someone will bring a revolutionary and cheap tech, but will most probably have a "car accident", so other persons will use it to make money over it, in the best case they'll just pay him or steal his project.

Cyberpunk is a competitive world, "Life hurts, You were born into a world of pain. If you don't like it, just leave now. Go outside in the gutter. Curl up and die.", it's a quote from the source book, page 229.

The world of 2020 has been fucked up by society colapse, economical collapse, bio-plagues, riots, civils wars, usual wars, corporate wars, decay of every sense of moral as the world has been down to shit.
Some country has probably, avoiding all of this, reached this kind of "utopia", but well, that's not the most interesting side as far as cyberpunk is concerned (and in a setting like this, it's almost impossible, too much factor to avoir being splattered by the shitstorm of 1994), people lost faith in governments and corporation bought back the world, raising "their" world in 2020, the word of the ultra-capitalism, all against all, "you got to show you're best than the next", the whole and massive competition.

There are no place for pity or goodness, unless you can pay for.
Sure, some people stay "human", but most of the people tend to follow the mass, otherwise it wouldn't be so fucked up, isn't it?
It's just so easy to be an individualist, thinking for yourself, don't stop to help people, even more in a setting like 2020 where anyone can beat you up to rob the few things you have (you apartement is also looted every days or so).

Because during the collapse, everything went down, now only 5% of the whole US population has a job, other robs, do black market, sell weapon, etc...
Sure, everyone isn't a badass, and wouldn't want, or can't put themself at risk, selling drug in a dark alley to earn enought cash to pay a coffin and something to eat, with the risk of being caught by the cops, beaten up, throwed in prison and brainwashed, if not just other people beating the crap out of you to steal your drugs and earning your money, those people just die, so you can't even really think about them.

It's a tought world, they barely survive in the street or manage to find a way to sell their skills to other person as body guard, driver, technician, etc... Their daily lives are made on shitty short term jobs like this.
All the people (and they're many) are hardened survivor in a world of all against all, where tech let's all comon sense goes to shit, everything is possible.
You'd say "Yeah, but kids, they'll probably want a cooler world?" in fact the kids lives in the same world as... everyone, so they're also confronted so the same shits as their parents, being teenager, with all the gangs and all, I'd say a lot of kid would rather waste their time under braindance or on the cyberspace than risking being stabbed in the street for a few bucks.
Only the smartest and the strongest make it, that you're a corporate or an edgerunner.

This is basicaly the background of 2020, without a lot of other things.
Now add a 4th corporate war over it, which fucked up the world and people's mind even more, and you'll have an idea of the mindset of the people in 2077, I doubt they give a fuck about transhumanism or any kind of utopia, it would be more:
"Leave me alone, I just want to end my journey alive, if I want a new body, I'll buy one at Dynatech, thank you, good bye."

It's a global and massive paranoia for everyone.

Tho, there will always have people with good intent, transhumanists, ecologists, etc...
But in a messy world like this, no one will listen to them.

Cyberpunk 2077 will most likely follow this, so I doubt there will be any kind of "happy ending" way to make everyone friends and happy.


About Cyberpsychos, it's not really "crazy cyborgs wandering the streets with a gun to kill everyone" lol.
First, as I said, people turned paranoid with all the shits flying around, everyone wear a gun, there are more crime than cop, so don't count on them (even the Us president has been shot during a riot, no one is safe lol), so people tend to put weapon in their cybernetics, it's illegal, but still, helpful if needed.

Now, what is the cyberpsychosis?
In cyberpunk, cybernetics are linked to your brain/nerves system.
In real life, when you break your leg or something, you have to re-educate it when it heals, so your body "learns" how to use it back, it's natural, it's how your body works.

It works the same with cybernetics, it's all brand and new, but it doesn't works by itself.
You're supposed to stay in hospital after an implant, up to a few month sometimes, so you lower your humanity loss by "learning" to use your cybernetic, making it a new part of your body, learning to move it, control it, etc... followed by a psychist, etc...

But, as said before, it's a world of "quick and fast", most people follow the cure as it's supposed to be done, other can't even pay the fee of their chirurgy, so don't think about staying 2 weeks more, other one don't give a fuck, and some other go to some "Ripperdocs", black market chirurgian (you bet they don't keep you 2weeks in their locker).

If you don't learn to "adapt" to your new tech, it'll react at random sometimes, people are paranoids, life in night city sucks, you just need a few things to make everything explode.

Your boss shiting on you, you're low on humanity, you shoot everyone in the office with the gun in your cyber-arm, not because your arm did it, but because you were all "Those guys, I'll kill them", which your arm took for a "Ok, shoot them dead", because you didn't learned to "talk" to it, if you see what I mean

The girl in the teaser was probably a stripper who've earned enought to get some new body parts to look better, but not enought for the "cure", her humanity loss was too big, a client was a lil too much annoying, she went mad, but her body understood:
"Agression, you need to clean the threat", thus causing her to slay through the crowd, with screams and stress, and police coming by, she just stressed even more and her body went mad, she couldn't control herself back, but not it's not really "her", just some kind of glitch between your brain and your cybernetics when you don't take time to adapt to it, it can just fuck the head of some people, but since cybernetics are very common, those things happens often, and sometimes it turns really bad.

That's why the Psychosquad is here, dealing with people who lost control of their mind and their cybernetics, or else against criminals who're too much cyborgized (think about a bulky armored cyborg guy wanting to rob a bank, a casual cop will not be able to stop him)

This is how cyberpsychosis works.
There are no "Terminators" in Cyberpunk haha.

 

[Sardukhar]

This is how cyberpsychosis works.
There are no "Terminators" in Cyberpunk haha.

Oooh, but there are...and there are mutliple ways to build them, too. Some fairly horrifying, some just horrifyingly expensive.

Technoshock - the mental illness of which cyberpsychosis is one of the more dramatic manifestations - arises from the rapid pace of technology in society. At a certain point, we start to lose track of what we think matters and our place in the world. This is not an issue for most people, but some find themselves in fugue states, others with a barrage of linked illnesses...and some, some enter a psychopathic denial of reality. Typically but not always finding expression in violent acts.

This isn't so far fetched. Amputees can tell you similar stories of self-loss. Modern-day stresses - television, internet, smartphones - mean that our psyche is under constant human communication pressure. Anyone who has ever maintained a separate identity online, behaved differently online, reacted unduly to what in normal circumstances might be only mild irritation..congratulations. You are enjoying a mild form of technoshock.

Fun stuff, huh?

 

[Maelcom404]

Oooh, but there are...and there are mutliple ways to build them, too. Some fairly horrifying, some just horrifyingly expensive.

Technoshock - the mental illness of which cyberpsychosis is one of the more dramatic manifestations - arises from the rapid pace of technology in society. At a certain point, we start to lose track of what we think matters and our place in the world. This is not an issue for most people, but some find themselves in fugue states, others with a barrage of linked illnesses...and some, some enter a psychopathic denial of reality. Typically but not always finding expression in violent acts.

This isn't so far fetched. Amputees can tell you similar stories of self-loss. Modern-day stresses - television, internet, smartphones - mean that our psyche is under constant human communication pressure. Anyone who has ever maintained a separate identity online, behaved differently online, reacted unduly to what in normal circumstances might be only mild irritation..congratulations. You are enjoying a mild form of technoshock.

Fun stuff, huh?

I agree, I meant it more like "no killing machine", well... they're just humans totaly lost in their own mind, not some robot or I don't know, it's all in their psyché, their lost their mind, they're not "evil to be evil" in most case.