Older Release Date and General Speculation Thread.

[kofeiiniturpa]

Things may or may not happen. But is it more likely for games in the industry to be worse because their developers took their time making the game?

Depends on "why" it takes long. While it can well be about carefully honing the rough off a diamond, a very long dev cycle might also mean mismanagement, problems and hassled developement leading to a complete mess of a game (it's not unheard of).

Plus: The more time they spend on it, the more it costs - the more it costs the bigger and wider an audience they require to break even and make profit - the wider the required audience, the more they need to streamline and simplify in order to appeal to the wide ends of the audience - the more they need to streamline and simplify, the blander the game will be (the worse it gets).

 

[Snowflakez]

why does gwent need a 100 people? its a card game...5 people tops. 1 coder 1 animator 3 playtesters/desginers.

That is not at all how game development works. There are hundreds of cards, all with their own unique sound effects, animations, concept art, and more. You cannot accomplish that with a team of 5 people. 100 people seems like too few, to me.

You need far more than the roles you listed. You need sound designers and engineers, artists (3D modellers, animators, concept artists and more) and countless others to successfully create a game.

A large portion of a game's funding is dedicated to art and visuals, some estimates go as high as 50% or higher (though that seems a little high to me) and a lot goes on behind the scenes of games like Hearthstone, Gwent, etc.

Also, for everyone else, a year and a half seems fast to me to make an engine that accomplishes everything they want.

Remember, guys, they are trying to make one of the most ambitious titles the world has ever seen. Verticality with GTA-like vehicles (planes, vehicles, etc.), massive amounts of player customization, player classes, large emphasis on player freedom, vast array of weapons, gear and implants... This stuff is going to take FOREVER to implement, and this isn't even going into the stuff that will inevitably be cut - this is the stuff they promised, the very core of their game.

Art alone for a project like CP2077 could take years, and add on to that the development issues they've been having and the performance/engine requirements to make all of this happen...I wouldn't expect a release before 2020 at the earliest. According to YongYea's video, they have essentially restarted development multiple times since the games announcement in 2012.

That said, I think it's likely that we see a gameplay demo of some sort next year, if for no other reason than to give people SOMETHING other than words. Just don't get your hopes up too much, folks. Cyberpunk 2077 is a complex project, and it's going to take a very long time to come to fruition, for better or worse.

 

[Loostreaks]

Plus: The more time they spend on it, the more it costs - the more it costs the bigger and wider an audience they require to break even and make profit - the wider the required audience, the more they need to streamline and simplify in order to appeal to the wide ends of the audience - the more they need to streamline and simplify, the blander the game will be (the worse it gets).

It is never that simple. Some of the most popular and profitable games out there, have very complex mechanics and come with a high entry bar.
If you want a huge audience, you have to be a leader, create something that stands out, that is fun and addictive/rewarding to play, that people will want to come back to. The same can be done for both simple and more complex titles.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It is never that simple.

It wasn't a thorough analysis.

Some of the most popular and profitable games out there, have very complex mechanics and come with a high entry bar.

That's not something I'd noticed for a general rule. What I've noticed is that while the developement costs have skyrocketed and the games have gone bigger and bigger, they've also become simpler and simpler (and for a bit of a curiosity: I've heard a dev comment on some features that were seen in games 20+ years ago are even said to be next to impossible with the current tech).

They are technologically extremely complex, though.

 

[Snowflakez]

It wasn't a thorough analysis.



That's not something I'd noticed for a general rule. What I've noticed is that while the developement costs have skyrocketed and the games have gone bigger and bigger, they've also become simpler and simpler (and for a bit of a curiosity: I've heard a dev comment on some features that were seen in games 20+ years ago are even said to be next to impossible with the current tech).

They are technologically extremely complex, though.

One reason for this is that games are dumping more and more money into art and visuals, rather than game mechanics. Don't get me wrong, ANY game will have a huge portion of its budget dedicated to art, but this recent push for "MUH MUH MUH 4K VISUALS" and photorealistic graphics, character models and facial animations has definitely come at the cost of under-the-hood stuff, like engine functionality and actual gameplay mechanics.

So, when companies like EA plead poverty and talk about how "GAMES ARE JUST SO EXPENSIVE TO MAKE" (despite raking in the $$$ from microtransactions, loot boxes, special editions, DLC, season passes and more), it's probably due to how so many gamers demand better visuals.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

One reason for this is that games are dumping more and more money into art and visuals, rather than game mechanics.

Yeah.

Marketing is also a big spender in the overall budget.

 

[Snowflakez]

Yeah.

Marketing is also a big spender in the overall budget.

Aye. That much I can understand, though. Marketing is really, really important to the success of a game, but I do think some companies spend it on stupid campaigns...

 

[Sardukhar]

Merging with Speculation/Updates thread.

 

[Suhiira]

Then, is it hard to implement an engine?

VERY.
The engine controls how all the parts of a game function.

What happens when you fire a bullet?
What happens when you use X skill on Y object?
How does an NPC respond to a question? Attack?
How to the various parts of the game work with each other?
If you have a multi-player component what each player sees (and may, or may not, know).

It's the heart of a game, literally, without it nothing else can function.

If an engine is badly done your game suffers stutters, lag, and has the ever popular rendering/texture bugs. All this is compounded when you're dealing with a multi-player environment as it has to do each of it's functions possibly multiple times in a very short span of time.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Wow

 

[Suhiira]

One reason for this is that games are dumping more and more money into art and visuals, rather than game mechanics. Don't get me wrong, ANY game will have a huge portion of its budget dedicated to art, but this recent push for "MUH MUH MUH 4K VISUALS" and photorealistic graphics, character models and facial animations has definitely come at the cost of under-the-hood stuff, like engine functionality and actual gameplay mechanics.

So, when companies like EA plead poverty and talk about how "GAMES ARE JUST SO EXPENSIVE TO MAKE" (despite raking in the $$$ from microtransactions, loot boxes, special editions, DLC, season passes and more), it's probably due to how so many gamers demand better visuals.

Much harder then making 4K visuals is rendering them in a timly and consistent manner so you don't wind up watching a slide show or with constant stutters in the animation. Not a subject I'd personally like to be involved in.

As to expense, unfortunately a LOT of the "cost" of making games isn't making the game itself but the marketing.
Even Witcher 3's total budget was about 50% marketing. And as more and more games come out larger and larger amounts are spent on marketing.

So basically microtransactions are the result of marketing costs NOT game development costs.

 

[Snowflakez]

Much harder then making 4K visuals is rendering them in a timly and consistent manner so you don't wind up watching a slide show or with constant stutters in the animation. Not a subject I'd personally like to be involved in.

As to expense, unfortunately a LOT of the "cost" of making games isn't making the game itself but the marketing.
Even Witcher 3's total budget was about 50% marketing. And as more and more games come out larger and larger amounts are spent on marketing.

So basically microtransactions are the result of marketing costs NOT game development costs.

Yep, you're absolutely right. Art is probably the second biggest expenditure, though.

That said, I don't think companies need to quadruple down on monetization to turn a significant profit on their singleplayer games.

 

[animalfather]

The future is dark and full of errors.

fixed.

 

[animalfather]

Then, is it hard to implement an engine?

no idea. never made an engine. but i guess its very math heavy. i remember my professor in mechanics told me his phd student was working for Dice implementing physics into their games..so ya i guess its pretty heavy stuff.

 

[sv3672]

I seriously can't believe it took them that long to make the engine work. Like, they started to focus on Cyberpunk 2077 around early 2016, so it took them 1 year and a half to make the engine? So besides concept designs, the development is in absolute early stages?

The interview does not actually tell much concrete about what stage the development currently is in, other than that an (unknown) milestone has just been reached, the engine is running but no one outside CDPR knows how complete it is, and that the release date unsurprisingly will not be announced in the few weeks left of 2017. It may or may not be announced in 2018, either because the developers do not know, or they do not want to tell yet.

As far as I understand it, early work on CP2077 started already during the development of TW3 (I recall a figure of about 50 people, it may be incorrect), and the team was expanded over time. It might have been the largest project already after May 2015, since the expansions and patches probably needed a smaller team than the base game, and a new studio in Krakow was also working on Blood and Wine. In any case, hundreds of people since mid-2016 (and probably more than 100 and increasing already from the second half of 2015) does not sound like early stages, unless, as rumored, there were problems that required previous work to be redone.

 

[Snowflakez]

Here's an interesting update: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-11-19-cd-projekt-red-greed-cyberpunk-2077-multiplayer

Turns out we have nothing to worry about.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

And even in Mike Pondsmith fairly recent interview only 4 months ago, he states all the classes are in the game.

There's a bit of --something-- there, though, in the way he states it that kinda gives away that things might not be quite as expected with them.

 

[sv3672]

There's a bit of --something-- there, though, in the way he states it that kinda gives away that things might not be quite as expected with them.

Is this what he said (source)?

His tabletop features unconventional classes like journalist, rockstar, executive, and others. The interviewer asked whether those will actually be in Cyberpunk 2077 and Mike Pondsmith replied positively.

Yes, you can. They’re all going to be there, but I can tell you’re going to find some surprises about how we’ve done it and I think you’re really going to like it. There’s a lot of subtlety going on there. Adam (Kiciński, CD Projekt RED’s President and co-CEO) and I spent literally like a whole week messing with the ways of implementing that, so you get the most feel for your character.

He does seem to confirm the roles will all be in the game in some way, even if it is going to be surprising how they are done, whatever that means.

 

[Guest 4149880]

There's a bit of --something-- there, though, in the way he states it that kinda gives away that things might not be quite as expected with them.

I'm sure they're working to improved upon it for the game, as he thinks players will really like it. If Mike approves it's got to be good.

 

[Suhiira]

I'm sure they're working to improved upon it for the game, as he thinks players will really like it. If Mike approves it's got to be good.

Not always ... Mike approved of v3 ...