Benzenzimmern;n9908081 said:
You're not tired of answering questions that should kinda answer themselves?
metalmaniac21;n9908431 said:
I think it's less that we're discussing a question that has answered itself, and more that we're discussing potential possibilities for the story since we can already guess that it's going to be maturely written.
But yes, the initial question was a bit self explanatory - at least it sparked an interesting discussion.
While it seems self-evident that CD Projekt Red would go with mature content, the simple fact is there's not much of it in video games as a whole. In both senses of the word of what people (primarily Americans) find objectionable as well as what is actually mature and in-depth writing.
Things I'm hoping for from the work are:
1. An equivalent to Yennifer and Triss' baggage filled romances
The thing about these two was they actually had romances with Geralt which were incredibly full of issues as well as complexities. Bioware was one of the few game companies to do romances and they're mostly, "agree with characters until they sleep with you." Part of what made Wolfenstein: The New Order so refreshing was there wasn't the "say X to get Y affection" but the characters just began a romance which continued in-depth.
Plus, again, you could lose your romances in the Witcher 3. I'm not asking to turn the story into a dating simulator but there's some strong emotion definitely to mine for the characters if they make something built into the storyline--either exs or people you can become involved with that have their relationship evolve over the story dependent on choices.
2. Something akin to the Bloody Baron questline
I think of this as the highlight of the Witcher 3 because it really was the highlight of the storyline there because the character was a repulsive human being but an entirely believable kind of one. Potentially having characters who are like that as potential enemies or allies I think would make or break the storyline.
3. I also like how eventually you were forced to choose between companions like Roche and Siggi.
4. Friendships and relationships with the actual setting are a thing which I hope will be incorporated into the storyline. One of the thing which made the Cyberpunk 2020 games I was involved with was the fact the characters were all integrated into the setting. You knew people in them and had connections both good as well as bad.
It was one of the big things against customization (whether you're for or against it) that was why I became attached to places like Stillwater in Saints Row.
Things I'm hoping for from the work are:
1. An equivalent to Yennifer and Triss' baggage filled romances
The thing about these two was they actually had romances with Geralt which were incredibly full of issues as well as complexities. Bioware was one of the few game companies to do romances and they're mostly, "agree with characters until they sleep with you." Part of what made Wolfenstein: The New Order so refreshing was there wasn't the "say X to get Y affection" but the characters just began a romance which continued in-depth.
Plus, again, you could lose your romances in the Witcher 3. I'm not asking to turn the story into a dating simulator but there's some strong emotion definitely to mine for the characters if they make something built into the storyline--either exs or people you can become involved with that have their relationship evolve over the story dependent on choices.
2. Something akin to the Bloody Baron questline
I think of this as the highlight of the Witcher 3 because it really was the highlight of the storyline there because the character was a repulsive human being but an entirely believable kind of one. Potentially having characters who are like that as potential enemies or allies I think would make or break the storyline.
3. I also like how eventually you were forced to choose between companions like Roche and Siggi.
4. Friendships and relationships with the actual setting are a thing which I hope will be incorporated into the storyline. One of the thing which made the Cyberpunk 2020 games I was involved with was the fact the characters were all integrated into the setting. You knew people in them and had connections both good as well as bad.
It was one of the big things against customization (whether you're for or against it) that was why I became attached to places like Stillwater in Saints Row.
mature as in deep themes or mature as in showing tits and lots of gore..there is a difference. i haven't played any of the witcher games, how are they depth wise?
animalfather;n9912901 said:
The Witcher games don't rely on boobs and gore to get a deep message across. They delve into topics like racism, wealth/class inequality, and much more in a very mature way. There's just so much to them that I can't really summarize it here. All I can say is that the Witcher games get it right. Nothing is black and white in the Witcher universe, it's all shades of gray. For instance, while elves are typically on the receiving end of racism and brutality from humans in the Witcher games, is it right if an elf turns around and does the same to a human? What would you do if you saw that happening? Help the elf? Help the human? Do nothing?
Regardless of your decision, these mini stories resolve themselves in a satisfying manner,. Satisfying because they are realistic. As I said before, nothing is black and white - you will rarely be able to complete a quest completely feeling like the good guy.
Example:
One mission has you tracking down a monster in a nearby village. Upon visiting the village, you realize the inhabitants have all been slaughtered. Using your Witcher senses, you realize it was not a monster that did this - but a swordsman. You soon find out it was another Witcher, with the same struggles as you (Witchers are typically viewed as freaks - encessary freaks, but freaks nonetheless. They are hated by many, and often get cheated). Many of the villagers were innocent, but he slaughtered them all when they tried to avoid giving him his rightful payment for killing the monster (that you were sent to kill) by trying to kill him instead.
You can then choose to leave him be (after a lot of good dialogue) or fight and kill him. Even with the fight itself, you ahve the option of letting him heal up to make the fight fair first, which he responds to with gratitude.
You can then choose to leave him be (after a lot of good dialogue) or fight and kill him. Even with the fight itself, you ahve the option of letting him heal up to make the fight fair first, which he responds to with gratitude.
To add on to the whole "nothing is black and white" thing even further, there are many times when you think intervening in a situation is the right thing to do - but, in actuality, the people will despise you for it. There's a classic tale in the Witcher books where Geralt (main character) tries to save a village from attack by killing all the attacking bandits. But Witchers are deadly efficient and fast, and it is not a pretty sight to see a half dozen men cut down (stabbed, decapitated, blown to bits with magic) before your very eyes. The village, terrified, wanted nothing to do with him.
Another example, from the first Witcher collection of short stories - Geralt is recounting one of his exploits to a priestess, who does not speak for story reasons (don't want to spoil too much, it's a great book):
Note: If it isn't clear, he's referring to humans when he says "monsters".
"My first Monster, Iola, was bald and had exceptionally rotten teeth. I came across him on the highway where, with some fellow monsters, deserters, he'd stopped a peasant's cart and pulled out a little girl, maybe thirteen years old. His companions held her father while the bald man tore off her dress, yelling it was time for her to meet a real man. I rode up and said the time had come for him, too-I thought I was very witty.
The bald monster released the girl and threw himself at me with an axe. He was slow but tough. I hit him twice-not clean cuts, but spectacular, and only then did he fall. His gang ran away when they saw what a witcher's sword could do to a man... "
"And I joined this fight like an idiot, not fifty miles from the mountains. And do you know why? I wanted the girl, sobbing with gratitude, to kiss her savior on the hands, and her father to thank me on his knees. In reality her father fled with his attackers, and the girl, drenched in the bald man's blood, threw up, became hysterical and fainted in fear when I approached her."
"My first Monster, Iola, was bald and had exceptionally rotten teeth. I came across him on the highway where, with some fellow monsters, deserters, he'd stopped a peasant's cart and pulled out a little girl, maybe thirteen years old. His companions held her father while the bald man tore off her dress, yelling it was time for her to meet a real man. I rode up and said the time had come for him, too-I thought I was very witty.
The bald monster released the girl and threw himself at me with an axe. He was slow but tough. I hit him twice-not clean cuts, but spectacular, and only then did he fall. His gang ran away when they saw what a witcher's sword could do to a man... "
"And I joined this fight like an idiot, not fifty miles from the mountains. And do you know why? I wanted the girl, sobbing with gratitude, to kiss her savior on the hands, and her father to thank me on his knees. In reality her father fled with his attackers, and the girl, drenched in the bald man's blood, threw up, became hysterical and fainted in fear when I approached her."
A lot of people scoff at this and say "If someone saved my life I'd be thanking him", but that's not really how human psychology works. Death is scary, and seeing someone -- no matter how noble his intentions -- butcher a bunch of people in front of you will not always be met with gratitude.
You get a scene like that very early in TW3, in fact, at the tavern in White Orchard. No real spoilers since its early on, but basically, you're forced to defend yourself against some very unruly bargoers, and it ain't pretty (which probably had something to do with the fact that you are travelling with another Witcher). The bartender, instead of thanking you, vomits nearby and orders you out.
So, yeah, long story short, the Witcher games are one of the best examples of deep, engaging (and believable) stories in the entire industry, IMO. What I LOVE is that you can't always be the hero
EDIT: ...Sorry for the novel. I just really, really love CDPR's writing, and the style of the Witcher books.
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animalfather;n9912901 said:
It has already been explained well by Willowhugger and Snowflakez above, but Witcher games actually have both, mature themes and complex relationships (although a fixed protagonist with years of backstory from the previous games and books helps a fair bit with the latter), however, they are not afraid to show nudity or violence where appropriate, either.
I'll be very disappointed if this game isn't geared as a game for adults with the obvious violence, nudity, sex, romance, etc. incorporated. One of the reason I loved the Witcher series was how it was geared for adults, not for kids.
I was actually a little disappointed in W3 that it was dialed back a little in terms of the sex-related stuff. Not that that is my main focus in the game, but when those scenes occur, I like them to be as realistic and detailed as possible, just like every other part of the game and they felt dialed down a bit from W2.
I was actually a little disappointed in W3 that it was dialed back a little in terms of the sex-related stuff. Not that that is my main focus in the game, but when those scenes occur, I like them to be as realistic and detailed as possible, just like every other part of the game and they felt dialed down a bit from W2.
Razrback16;n10239802 said:
This was mostly because Geralt has his memories back in TW3. He's a bit more of a one woman man, for the most part... Though part of that is up to the player. He doesn't really seem as interested in screwing everything that walks.
He's also much older, and he settles down at the end of the games. His playboy days are behind him, IMO. I don't think it was "dialed back" at all, really.
That said, I don't need a bunch of sex scenes in a game in order for it to feel mature for me. I don't have any problem with it whatsoever, but it's far from my first priority. Complex, believable characters with dark sides and many shades of gray to the story and quests is what I look for first and foremost. Violence, nudity, sex... All that comes second.
Of course, violence is a given here.
cyberarmy;n10258852 said:
Yeah, their writing has been pretty solid for the most part. Few hiccups here and there only.
But humor is one of those things they need to do some self reflecting. It was quite bad in the Witcher games.
In the ways of mature writing I mostly expect real commitment to the core tenants of cyberpunk as a genre first and second to it as a franchise in particular, that beign R. Talsorian/Mike Pondsmith's cyberpunk. Why in that order? Well, first of all because it was bold enough in the first place calling the PnP cyberpunk, as a statement of saying "this is what cyberpunk is" and then the whole controversy over registering the title Cyberpunk (a controversy that I understand, but don't necessarily share. After all, the game was already called cyberpunk), but it also should please the original fans.
Cyberpunk can be very political and morally gray or in general examining morality or ethics. This can be very hard to pull off. We're in the era of decrying everyone and their mother of being either an SJW or part of the Alt-Right (a false dychotomy that, from outside the general circles and, outside of the American dominated interwebz is kinda laughable, honestly). Cyberpunk can be very bastardized in this day and age. I've seen projects of new cyberpunk products, for example, that label themselves as "anti-fascist cyberpunk" and I have to roll my eyes 360 degrees in every direction and angle impossible. Because I see concepts of these and I say: "okay, that's not cyberpunk. That's not even classic dystopia, that's teenage dystopia". You see these muscular, seven hundred million feet tall dark skinned women lifting puny faceless storm troopers in the air... like, how can these X-men be opressed? They're beautiful, they're strong, intelligent, woke, superpowered, they look good in their custom tailored clothes... Like, if you're going to make a story of people being opressed, can't you drop the X-men angle for a while? Because you're sending mixed messages here, like, "oh, we're being opressed because we're superior". That's not only not how genocide happens but it also lowers the stakes.
Don't write anything intellectually insulting: don't pretend that class conflict is a thing about "oh, rich people and poor people just don't get along because they don't know how similar they are", nor portray poor people as always good and rich people as always bad. Don't pretend violence doesn't breed more violence. Don't create a story where you try to sell any kind of morals, like siding with "the lesser evil", let the players decide on their own and always have them regret some aspects about it. Don't cheapen cyberpunk by making it all about siding with, say, the American arms development corporation (war profiteers) against foreign ones, just because they're from the country the story is set in. No us vs them crap.
Also, careful with the nihilism. If you're going to do it, which you probably are to some extent, do it well, because people don't get it.
Cyberpunk can be very political and morally gray or in general examining morality or ethics. This can be very hard to pull off. We're in the era of decrying everyone and their mother of being either an SJW or part of the Alt-Right (a false dychotomy that, from outside the general circles and, outside of the American dominated interwebz is kinda laughable, honestly). Cyberpunk can be very bastardized in this day and age. I've seen projects of new cyberpunk products, for example, that label themselves as "anti-fascist cyberpunk" and I have to roll my eyes 360 degrees in every direction and angle impossible. Because I see concepts of these and I say: "okay, that's not cyberpunk. That's not even classic dystopia, that's teenage dystopia". You see these muscular, seven hundred million feet tall dark skinned women lifting puny faceless storm troopers in the air... like, how can these X-men be opressed? They're beautiful, they're strong, intelligent, woke, superpowered, they look good in their custom tailored clothes... Like, if you're going to make a story of people being opressed, can't you drop the X-men angle for a while? Because you're sending mixed messages here, like, "oh, we're being opressed because we're superior". That's not only not how genocide happens but it also lowers the stakes.
Don't write anything intellectually insulting: don't pretend that class conflict is a thing about "oh, rich people and poor people just don't get along because they don't know how similar they are", nor portray poor people as always good and rich people as always bad. Don't pretend violence doesn't breed more violence. Don't create a story where you try to sell any kind of morals, like siding with "the lesser evil", let the players decide on their own and always have them regret some aspects about it. Don't cheapen cyberpunk by making it all about siding with, say, the American arms development corporation (war profiteers) against foreign ones, just because they're from the country the story is set in. No us vs them crap.
Also, careful with the nihilism. If you're going to do it, which you probably are to some extent, do it well, because people don't get it.
Almost all issues have at least two sides. Admittedly one is frequently fairly ambiguous, and that's the side that often has the most fanatic followers, to whom reason and logic aren't important in the face of what they choose to believe. While such issues can be explored in personal games (people rarely have both staunch conservative AND ultra liberal friends) in a game releasing to the general public it can be ... and often is ... a nightmare.
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Decatonkeil;n10260152 said:
I feel like I just read a quote from Mad Men.
Snowflakez;n10266472 said:
Couldn't tell you as I haven't watched Mad Men.
Snowflakez;n10239852 said:
I didn't mean lack of 'options' from a romance standpoint, I meant the scenes themselves. In W2 they showed a ton of different angles, the scenes were just more thorough - in W3 they were very vanilla, most scenes were just copycat scenes of every other scene with a different face model on the NPC.