"Incredibly complex vehicles, planes, bikes, robots and mechanics" designers wanted

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Sigh. Not until it's in the game is it confirmed. Official CDPR is official. They can absolutely change stuff during build and/or just use this as NPC stuff.

Job ads are just that. They are not confirmation or "confirmation" of anything.
 
Sardukhar;n9855661 said:
Sigh. Not until it's in the game is it confirmed. Official CDPR is official. They can absolutely change stuff during build and/or just use this as NPC stuff.

Job ads are just that. They are not confirmation or "confirmation" of anything.

Maybe change the title of the thread.
 
Snowflakez;n9855671 said:
Maybe change the title of the thread.

Yeah I did that last time which is why there are now quotes. I think I'm just going to zero the "confirmed" from now on. It's still very misleading.
 
Sardukhar;n9855741 said:
Yeah I did that last time which is why there are now quotes. I think I'm just going to zero the "confirmed" from now on. It's still very misleading.
Not a bad idea.
 

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sv3672;n9855471 said:
That is what I think, too, the player might also be able to drive vehicle(s), it would make sense with the other rumors about the large map area, but flying would be problematic to implement well.

Why would flying be problematic exactly? Games have used flying vehicles many times. Its not hard to implement, and many games have used flying and hover vehicles before. Look at the Halo series or Jak and Daxter 2&3, hell.... grand theft auto did it for fun with cheat codes, and that's on much older hardware, so come on now. There's really no difference in the amount of resources that would go into making a hover car vs a driving car, the only difference is the space and area they occupy. I just don't understand the logic on this one.
 
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BeastModeIron;n9856131 said:
Why would flying be problematic exactly? Games have used flying vehicles many times. Its not hard to implement, and many games have used flying and hover vehicles before. Look at the Halo series or Jak and Daxter 2&3, hell.... grand theft auto did it for fun with cheat codes, and that's on much older hardware, so come on now. There's really no difference in the amount of resources that would go into making a hover car vs a driving car, the only difference is the space and area they occupy. I just don't understand the logic on this one.

It would work of course if the gameplay and map were designed with flying in mind. I think it would also be more demanding on the hardware if you were able to look down on a dense city map from above, but this can be solved by reducing the level of detail. In the end, it is probably a matter of whether the ability to fly adds enough value to the game to outweigh the costs and compromises involved. It may actually be more difficult in a modern AAA game because of the much higher amount of detail and more reliance on scripting.

Perhaps if the world map has multiple regions like in TW3, the player could fly in only one or some of them where the map design is suitable, elsewhere the vehicle would not be available. Although it is somewhat harder to explain map boundaries, it does not make sense to run into an invisible wall mid-air. On the ground level, there can be high mountains or buildings or other obstacles that naturally block access to the rest of the world.
 
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BeastModeIron;n9856131 said:
Why would flying be problematic exactly? Games have used flying vehicles many times. Its not hard to implement, and many games have used flying and hover vehicles before. Look at the Halo series or Jak and Daxter 2&3, hell.... grand theft auto did it for fun with cheat codes, and that's on much older hardware, so come on now. There's really no difference in the amount of resources that would go into making a hover car vs a driving car, the only difference is the space and area they occupy. I just don't understand the logic on this one.

Please don't take this as a personal attack or anything like that, just trying to add to the conversation.

First, how do you know flying isn't hard to implement? Examples like Halo and J&D (both franchises that I love, by the way) don't really apply here. Why? Because of their scale. Halo and J&D both use much, much smaller, more linear levels for players to explore. Recent entries from Halo have expanded things a bit, but it's nowhere near the scale of an open world like Night City or even the Witcher 3's world. CDPR has to create an engine capable of not only handling flying vehicles, but handling the massive amount of visual effects that come along with flying through an open world. Weather effects -- including, undoubtedly, rain, fog etc. -- and rendering the massive, sprawling city as you fly around will take a lot of engineering expertise and development time to figure out.

Rockstar's GTA games get away with this sort of thing because their worlds are often little more than theme parks. This is not an insult. I love the GTA games, especially GTA V. However, you cant enter most buildings, the citizens are little more than set decoration most of the time, there's nothing resembling deep character customization and -- if CDPR's PR department is to be believed -- CP2077 is set to be even bigger than any open world we've seen thus far, with the exception of stupidly large games like Daggerfall. Making flying vehicles work here would be no small feat.

I think what SV3672 makes sense for the most part. Multiple regions could help reduce the processor load, but I am a bit curious how that would work in the context of one big city. If CDPR split the city into districts, wouldn't it be jarring to be met with a loading screen when just trying to fly/drive from one part of the city to the next?

I see this attitude frequently throughout game forums, and without understanding how game programming and design works it's really difficult to come to grips with the sheer scale of most games, not just in terms of the size of their worlds. When you think of a feature in CP2077, don't think of the feature itself in a box - think about the big picture. Okay, so we want flying. Great. How does that impact the game's skill systems, the NPCs, the buildings (in terms of collisions and the like), how do we render objects smoothly while travelling at high speeds? Does adding flying compromise other aspects of the game? Example: GTA games compromise more detailed, believable NPCs for the benefit of the games' sandbox-y nature, and the ability to do just about anything you'd like.

As an aspiring game developer myself (learning C++ right now, courtesy of an awesome Unreal course), one key thing I've learned so far is that managing complexity is extremely difficult, and doing so with a game like CP2077 will be a herculean feat indeed. I wish them the best of luck, though.
 
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Snowflakez;n9857431 said:
First, how do you know flying isn't hard to implement? Examples like Halo and J&D (both franchises that I love, by the way) don't really apply here. Why? Because of their scale. Halo and J&D both use much, much smaller, more linear levels for players to explore. Recent entries from Halo have expanded things a bit, but it's nowhere near the scale of an open world like Night City or even the Witcher 3's world. CDPR has to create an engine capable of not only handling flying vehicles, but handling the massive amount of visual effects that come along with flying through an open world. Weather effects -- including, undoubtedly, rain, fog etc. -- and rendering the massive, sprawling city as you fly around will take a lot of engineering expertise and development time to figure out.

Examples like Halo and Jak, applies as much as anything would. It was on a smaller scale for its time, it was big for the time and hardware available as well. The comparison to todays hardware doesn't apply as its leaps and bounds more advanced then it used to be. It comes down to the deign of the game rather then limitations, not that there aren't... but not it used to be. That's obvious enough without a game design degree.

You say Rockstar can get away with simplistic game design because of the type of game they make, as if that game design is some how much easier in comparison? Do you think buildings in Cp2077 are all going to be fully detailed inside? Chances are no and they too will be more or less giant set peace's as well. The size of the city is still undetermined so to make assumptions that 2077 is will be bigger then it will probably be is a none argument. We don't know. Your comparison of Cp2077 to Gta is kind of hypocritical thinking when you imply one type of design is easier to get away with then another.

Do flying cars comprise game design, it could but it depends on their goals. Does character creation compromise game design as well, sure it does, it also comes down to what features they want to implement into the game. This argument could apply to any features implemented into the game. Flying cars is no exception because of compromises. Open worlds are the biggest compromise to achieve really dense and detailed graphics compared to small linear games but can it be achieved? Well, yes.

Learning game design might give you some insight as to how game design work but doesn't give you arcane knowledge on what is or isn't possible on what could be achieved in game design on a grand scale. I understand where your coming from on what would go into implementing these features but that's game design and it applies to all features as a whole.

 
BeastModeIron;n9857791 said:
Examples like Halo and Jak, applies as much as anything would. It was on a smaller scale for its time, it was big for the time and hardware available as well. The comparison to todays hardware doesn't apply as its leaps and bounds more advanced then it used to be. It comes down to the deign of the game rather then limitations, not that there aren't... but not it used to be. That's obvious enough without a game design degree.

You say Rockstar can get away with simplistic game design because of the type of game they make, as if that game design is some how much easier in comparison? Do you think buildings in Cp2077 are all going to be fully detailed inside? Chances are no and they too will be more or less giant set peace's as well. The size of the city is still undetermined so to make assumptions that 2077 is will be bigger then it will probably be is a none argument. We don't know. Your comparison of Cp2077 to Gta is kind of hypocritical thinking when you imply one type of design is easier to get away with then another.

Do flying cars comprise game design, it could but it depends on their goals. Does character creation compromise game design as well, sure it does, it also comes down to what features they want to implement into the game. This argument could apply to any features implemented into the game. Flying cars is no exception because of compromises. Open worlds are the biggest compromise to achieve really dense and detailed graphics compared to small linear games but can it be achieved? Well, yes.

Learning game design might give you some insight as to how game design work but doesn't give you arcane knowledge on what is or isn't possible on what could be achieved in game design on a grand scale. I understand where your coming from on what would go into implementing these features but that's game design and it applies to all features as a whole.

For the sake of clarity, I wasn't trying to condescend. I was just saying it's easier to look at things behind the scenes when you understand a bit about how it's put together, that's all. I'm by no means an expert, I've only learned intermediate (at best) level stuff so far. I could probably put together something like this: https://gamejolt.com/games/myrne-the-sorcerer/34712 but I'll need a hell of a lot more practice before I'm comfortable working on the likes of GTA or CP2077.

As far as my GTA comparison goes, I wasn't really saying GTA V's design was simplistic or that Rockstar put less effort into the game than CDPR is with 2077. Rather, I just meant that Rockstar's ambitions seem to be much smaller in scope what CDPR is attempting to do with 2077 - which isn't a bad thing, by the way. In fact, that's one of my greatest fears with CP2077, that they attempt to do much and fail or cut major promised mechanics and disappoint a lot of people. Rockstar has a ton of experience in developing games, and they don't use the same messed up development strategies that CDPR does (as much as I love the guys). Rockstar has found their groove and they know what they're doing. They have a niche and they stick to and improve upon it - they aren't trying to create an insanely ambitious RPG like CPDR is, and that's perfectly fine.

CDPR's ambitions are clear from what they've said so far, and YongYea's video on the subject offers some additional insight into them as well. Not only are they trying to implement a few GTA V-like sandbox mechanics, but they're also trying to create detailed RPG systems, in-depth character customization, and numerous other things that seem frankly impossible to me. I just think implementing something like flight will be much more difficult with so many additional systems in play. Predicting how they will interact with each other is very difficult without taking a look at CP2077's code, but it's certainly not going to be as simple as "lets throw it in there because other games have done it and it worked fine".

I agree that Halo and J&D's smaller scale was partially based on the era they released in, but you can even look at newer Halo games to see that their level design is still largely linear - sure, they've been opened up a bit as you might expect, but you still tend to fight your way from point A to point B on a mostly direct path. This probably won't be as system-intensive as something like CP2077 - that's my main point.

You are correct in saying that we don't know the size of the map in the end. All we can do is make assumptions based on what little information we've been given so far. There have been rumors that the game will be many times bigger than TW3, but even those could just be referring to development efforts or ambitions, and not so much map size. I could be proven wrong and CP2077 could end up being a linear corridor shooter, for all I know, or they could condense the city into Witcher-like districts with loading screens in between. If they did either of those things, I believe flight would be much easier to implement.

Hopefully that made some sense, I know I'm not explaining my PoV perfectly.
 
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Snowflakez;n9857431 said:
Multiple regions could help reduce the processor load, but I am a bit curious how that would work in the context of one big city. If CDPR split the city into districts, wouldn't it be jarring to be met with a loading screen when just trying to fly/drive from one part of the city to the next?

I was thinking more along the lines of different environments in the regions, not all of it would be part of the city. That is, assuming that the rumors about the map area being significantly increased compared to TW3 are true. It might not be feasible to fill a huge world map with a detailed urban environment (unless much of it is copy and pasted or procedurally generated), but if other areas outside the city are also included, then vehicles could work well in some of them.

BeastModeIron;n9857791 said:
Do flying cars comprise game design, it could but it depends on their goals. Does character creation compromise game design as well, sure it does, it also comes down to what features they want to implement into the game. This argument could apply to any features implemented into the game. Flying cars is no exception because of compromises. Open worlds are the biggest compromise to achieve really dense and detailed graphics compared to small linear games but can it be achieved? Well, yes.

It is a matter of how important the feature is to the game vs. how much cost and design compromise it requires. Open worlds are obviously more expensive to create (even if by not nearly as much as the map area is increased), but if they are expected to also sell much better, then spending on them is worth it. Would the ability to drive a flying car be essential to the game, or is it just added because it is cool? In the former case, it may affect level design, quests, and possibly character skills. If it is the latter, then the developers may only want it if it can be implemented with relatively low effort.
 

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Snowflakez;n9858081 said:
Hopefully that made some sense, I know I'm not explaining my PoV perfectly.

Yes most of these are valid points. Should they do it, that's debatable but my point was, can they do it, absolutely. No I'm not a game developer but based on the technology and capabilities of today's hardware, its very plausible regardless of the amount of work and resources that goes into such a project because that's the case with every feature implemented.

I didn't think such a topic would have been up for such debate but its alright... Personally I hope to see these features implemented and from the job listing it seems like it will be a reality because I'm almost certain "complex" vehicles, bikes airplanes and robots aren't all going to be stationary or scripted assets. Its not beyond current hardware limitations at all, but its based on the kind of game that would require them to be a main feature which is why you don't see them in todays games. How many open world cyberpunk city games are there? Yep, and its just going to take an exceptionally skilled studio to do it.

Game design built around massive and dense cities and the navigation around them is already here. Arkham City, for example is basically doing it already, the difference is Batman flying instead of a car. But the tech is there, and there's obvious differences in concepts. Most people didn't believe the tech existed to make a game like No mans Sky before it came out regardless of its flaws, and people assumed it couldn't be done.
 
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The job posting in the OP is only for vehicle artists, but this one for gameplay programmer looks more promising:
  • Creating the whole architecture of vehicle related code and the physics of driving / flying in those vehicles.
  • Taking a part in the design process of the gameplay.
  • Ensuring that game scripts are well designed, and are optimal in terms of CPU and memory consumption.
So it looks like the possibility of driving and even flying in the game is at least being considered. Of course it remains to be seen how much (if anything) of it actually ends up in the released version.
 
If I don't get my functional police cruiser or response vehicles, I will run amok in the next best slum!
 
sv3672;n9860081 said:
The job posting in the OP is only for vehicle artists, but this one for gameplay programmer looks more promising:
  • Creating the whole architecture of vehicle related code and the physics of driving / flying in those vehicles.
  • Taking a part in the design process of the gameplay.
  • Ensuring that game scripts are well designed, and are optimal in terms of CPU and memory consumption.

So it looks like the possibility of driving and even flying in the game is at least being considered. Of course it remains to be seen how much (if anything) of it actually ends up in the released version.

Yeah, that's definitely more interesting, though it could just refer to NPC-operated vehicles, too.

But, honestly, I would be more surprised to NOT see flying in the game than I would be to see it happen. They would need a hell of an in-game reason to make it not a thing, because the source material itself already uses it, and 2077 is a much more futuristic version of even that. Think blade runner type vehicles - those are the norm in the Cyberpunk world, and it would be really odd to ground the player without sufficient lore reasons for doing so.
 
sv3672;n9860081 said:
So it looks like the possibility of driving and even flying in the game is at least being considered. Of course it remains to be seen how much (if anything) of it actually ends up in the released version.

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, that job offer has been there for quite some time (or it's recurring due to staff change). I remember seeing it before.

I suppose the only question I have regarding vehicles in the game is whether it is assumed the character knows how to operate them all at master level by default, or if there will be some kind of character skill involvement integrated into their handling (like in 2020).

I fully expect the former as I don't see it being recieved very well if you couldn't just jump into a vehicle and race away like a pro (a parallel to combat mechanics could be drawn, people generally don't tend prefer stat involvement when they shoot at things; it has to be a "simulation"), but of course hope for the latter.
 

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Snowflakez;n9860391 said:
Yeah, that's definitely more interesting, though it could just refer to NPC-operated vehicles, too.

But, honestly, I would be more surprised to NOT see flying in the game than I would be to see it happen. They would need a hell of an in-game reason to make it not a thing, because the source material itself already uses it, and 2077 is a much more futuristic version of even that. Think blade runner type vehicles - those are the norm in the Cyberpunk world, and it would be really odd to ground the player without sufficient lore reasons for doing so.

I don't think by the ways its stated its referring to strictly NPC or AI scripted vehicles. The physics of driving/flying in those vehicles is most likely referring to the player operating them. Its no surprise given its a core concept for cyberpunk and CDPR seems to have clearly made it a goal for development. You've basically just made same point I have been saying the whole time. Other than hardware limits or were have a core developer in our midst, no one knows unless someone here works at CDPR.
 

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I want to see beast ACPA like these in the game sometime. Fallout 4 left much to be desired in that department.
Dornier_Legionnaire.jpg
 
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sv3672;n9860081 said:
The job posting in the OP is only for vehicle artists, but this one for gameplay programmer looks more promising:
  • Creating the whole architecture of vehicle related code and the physics of driving / flying in those vehicles.
  • Taking a part in the design process of the gameplay.
  • Ensuring that game scripts are well designed, and are optimal in terms of CPU and memory consumption.
So it looks like the possibility of driving and even flying in the game is at least being considered. Of course it remains to be seen how much (if anything) of it actually ends up in the released version.

Interesting they posted this six months ago and there is no such person to fit this.
 
kofeiiniturpa;n9860431 said:
I suppose the only question I have regarding vehicles in the game is whether it is assumed the character knows how to operate them all at master level by default, or if there will be some kind of character skill involvement integrated into their handling (like in 2020).

It probably depends on how important vehicles would be in the game, if there is a character skill for driving in Dying Light, then why not in CP2077? Although because of having to balance the game to be playable with or without driving skill, either the skill or the vehicles may end up not making a major difference.

yyb0568;n9862941 said:
Interesting they posted this six months ago and there is no such person to fit this.

Perhaps they want to hire more than one programmer, or someone better than who is/are currently working on it.
 
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