Single Open World or Partitioned?

[kofeiiniturpa]

This is what I was going to say. I like the idea, but people would complain about this.

Many people would complain about a lot of what I'd like to see in the game if they ever got in, and people will complain even without my ideas (I might too in the end). But I say let them, there's always someone who doesn't like what you have to offer. I think it is ultimately for the better of the game to let multifaceted and versatile gameplay trump pettiness over such small matters in the grand scheme of things. That works also for a lot other stuff, nuances over other bigger features that harken back to how they were solved in the PnP game.

Personally, I think it'd be a super fun little diversion and a nice nod to the game's PnP roots. Text based games are also significantly easier and faster to create, so if they did like the idea, it wouldn't be too hard to implement (At least not as an isolated mini-game...integrating it into the engine and the game world would be trickier).

There's a lot of purely mechanical they can take from how the pen and paper game works that would help the game stand out and provide a richer experience.

 

[SigilFey]

While I love text-based bits in games (Space Rangers 2, anyone?), I'd have to agree that I don't think a mechanic like that would work in CP2077. I'm not sure how to justify a fully 3D, cinematic experience suddenly switching to a text-based situation with still images.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm not sure how to justify a fully 3D, cinematic experience suddenly switching to a text-based situation with still images.

The best justification would be that otherwise useless world objects would now have a purpose beyond being stage decoration.

Also, artistic stylization in a similiar vein (just "similiar" not "same") as Witcher had it's comicbook scenes.

There's a lot of room for contextual stuff like that.

Unless the game is really made to be like an interactive movie that absolutely requires presentational coherence over that kind of gamey features.

 

[Snowflakez]

The best justification would be that otherwise useless world objects would now have a purpose beyond being stage decoration.

Also, artistic stylization in a similiar vein (just "similiar" not "same") as Witcher had it's comicbook scenes.

There's a lot of room for contextual stuff like that.

Unless the game is really made to be like an interactive movie that absolutely requires presentational coherence over that kind of gamey features.

Pretty much this. I'd take a fun diversion with actual benefits (probably) over dull, lifeless buildings any day - artistic consistency be damned.

Besides, if there is any "netrunning" in the game, this could have a similar interface.

 

[Rawls]

​

Here are my ideas for zones based on 2020 map. Image from here - https://datafortress2020.com/nightci...algamated.html and yellow added by me. The basic idea is that each yellow area would be it's own "zone" and that crossing from one zone to the next can only be done at certain choke points and locations where the local security detail gives you a thorough checking over (aka shakedown) before passing through to the next zone. If your in a high-speed chase within a zone, the shut down the checkpoints ... so you have to lose the authorities before going to the next zone over. Each checkpoint interaction would be a scripted event/conversation that would happen while the the next zone was loading. The more densely populated areas are smaller zones and the more suburban or rural areas are larger. Here are the zones:

1. Corporate Center - urban, richest part of town.
2. Downtown - urban, less wealthy than downtown.
3. Pacific Park - Large area that's mostly open, with seaside suburban city (Haven) near it's center.
4. The Slums - low income area surrounding the combat zone, includes various ethnic neighborhoods like "Chinatown," Little Haiti," and "Little Odessa." Heavily influenced by gangs.
5. Combat Zone - totally run down ruins controlled by gangs (maybe optional PvP zone?)
6. Bayside - suburban water front area. Waterfront is affluent, but inland is more middle / lower middle class.
7. Morningside - Suburban, affluent. Huge security presence on border with slums.
8. (INCLUDES PARTS OFF THE MAP TO THE SOUTH) Gateway - lower income area with high security presence ... serves as border with the southern wasteland ... also includes large wasteland area South of Night City that is occupied by roaming Nomad gangs.

The Zones would have to be compressed compared to the above and would probably not be to scale with the image above- figure maybe 2 km[SUP]2[/SUP] in the urban areas 1 & 2. Suburban areas would be larger and rural areas would be the largest.

 

[SigilFey]

The best justification would be that otherwise useless world objects would now have a purpose beyond being stage decoration.
Also, artistic stylization in a similiar vein (just "similiar" not "same") as Witcher had it's comicbook scenes.
There's a lot of room for contextual stuff like that.
Unless the game is really made to be like an interactive movie that absolutely requires presentational coherence over that kind of gamey features.

Pretty much this. I'd take a fun diversion with actual benefits (probably) over dull, lifeless buildings any day - artistic consistency be damned.
Besides, if there is any "netrunning" in the game, this could have a similar interface.

It works like this in my head: I'm playing the Witcher 3. I'm introduced to a cinematic experience right in the prologue...from the dream sequence tutorial to arriving in White Orchard and going into the tavern. But later, say, when I stumble upon the Devil by the Well side quest for the first time...the screen becomes a choose-your-own-adventure with text and hand-drawn images. After I complete the quest, it drops me back into the 3D world. What...did they not finish the game? What's going on?

That's a far cry from storybook scenes between load levels. Text adventures are great in general, but the mechanics of the overall game have to support it. It works in Pillars or Space Rangers because those games presented their worlds as "table-top miniatures". There was no way to really show a variety of intricate scenes like that using the mechanics available. As another example, fully acted, in-game dialogue scenes would be practically useless since you can't depict the characters' facial expressions or finer body language. Dialogue boxes with developed writing work much better.

I imagine a text-based adventure might work as a "between chapters" thing...perhaps helping to determine the state of certain things for the next part of the game...make those sections a bit more dynamic...give your character a few new tools or skills...(or if the game were built in the Infinity Engine.)

 

[Snowflakez]

It works like this in my head: I'm playing the Witcher 3. I'm introduced to a cinematic experience right in the prologue...from the dream sequence tutorial to arriving in White Orchard and going into the tavern. But later, say, when I stumble upon the Devil by the Well side quest for the first time...the screen becomes a choose-your-own-adventure with text and hand-drawn images. After I complete the quest, it drops me back into the 3D world. What...did they not finish the game? What's going on?

That's a far cry from storybook scenes between load levels. Text adventures are great in general, but the mechanics of the overall game have to support it. It works in Pillars or Space Rangers because those games presented their worlds as "table-top miniatures". There was no way to really show a variety of intricate scenes like that using the mechanics available. As another example, fully acted, in-game dialogue scenes would be practically useless since you can't depict the characters' facial expressions or finer body language. Dialogue boxes with developed writing work much better.

I imagine a text-based adventure might work as a "between chapters" thing...perhaps helping to determine the state of certain things for the next part of the game...make those sections a bit more dynamic...give your character a few new tools or skills...(or if the game were built in the Infinity Engine.)

The difference being that Devil in the Well is an actual quest with its own story, a start point where you talk to an NPC and haggle on a price and so on and so forth, whereas this hypothetical text adventure sequence is being applied to something that would otherwise never be accessed by the player - think of the Witcher 3's many inaccessible buildings that are all mysteriously "locked".

I'm not saying it's likely to happen, I'm saying it's not difficult to do (I've created my own goofy text adventure game with very, very limited C++ knowledge) and it wouldn't be as detrimental as you think. It could be confusing for people at first, sure, but it would be totally optional and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things (Easy to ignore) and it would be a fun addition. I think the pros would outweigh the cons.

It could also be explained briefly in the tutorial to eliminate confusion.

Again, there's like a 99.999% chance it doesn't happen, so we're essentially discussing the existence of unicorns here, but it's still fun to talk about. I think such a system would be super fun.

 

[Suhiira]

​Here are my ideas for zones based on 2020 map. Image from here - https://datafortress2020.com/nightci...algamated.html and yellow added by me.

Never seen this map before.
Thank you and bless you Rawls .

 

[Mefris]

Never seen this map before
Thank you and bless you Rawls .

It's a fan made map done by Deric Bernier using images from Google Earth.It was inspired by another map made by Eric Bergbauer:

Spoiler

Both are awesome but,sadly,not official.

 

[Rawls]

It's a fan made map done by Deric Bernier using images from Google Earth.It was inspired by another map made by Eric Bergbauer:

Never knew about the Eric Bergbauer one. Interesting.

Both are awesome but,sadly,not official.

Indeed. I can still dream.

 

[Mefris]

Never knew about the Eric Bergbauer one. Interesting.

Then I'm glad I posted it It's my favorite map of Night City.If you zoom in you can really see the effort Eric put into making it.

Indeed. I can still dream.

You and me both.

 

[Suhiira]

Both are awesome but,sadly,not official.

Unofficial or not it's still DAMN useful.

 

[BjornTheBandit]

I used to think open world was the only way to go, as my prior experience with partitioned worlds included Dragon Age: Origins and Inquisition. But after playing Witcher 3... I barely noticed the world was split. The Loading screen while travelling to Skeligge felt completely natural, as it was an archipelago off the mainland, and it reinforced the differences in cultures. In Velen, you could walk anywhere, but Skelligers lived and died by sea travel.

So, if they do as great a job with partitioning as they did with Witcher 3, then I don't see a problem with it. The only problem I see is it being a city rather than different countries; there won't be an ocean between city blocks...

 

[SigilFey]

The difference being that Devil in the Well is an actual quest with its own story, a start point where you talk to an NPC and haggle on a price and so on and so forth, whereas this hypothetical text adventure sequence is being applied to something that would otherwise never be accessed by the player - think of the Witcher 3's many inaccessible buildings that are all mysteriously "locked".

I'm not saying it's likely to happen, I'm saying it's not difficult to do (I've created my own goofy text adventure game with very, very limited C++ knowledge) and it wouldn't be as detrimental as you think. It could be confusing for people at first, sure, but it would be totally optional and inconsequential in the grand scheme of things (Easy to ignore) and it would be a fun addition. I think the pros would outweigh the cons.

It could also be explained briefly in the tutorial to eliminate confusion.

Again, there's like a 99.999% chance it doesn't happen, so we're essentially discussing the existence of unicorns here, but it's still fun to talk about. I think such a system would be super fun.

What would your solution be for transitioning the player out of the 3D gameplay and into text adventure then back?

For example, let's say I'm showing a movie. How would I justify stopping the film, bringing up the lights, and asking the audience to read something in a magazine to further the story for the next section. Then, I would turn off the lights and continue the film. (It would be far easier to do something like that in a live-theater murder mystery. Seamlessly pause the performance and let the audience look for a clue in a magazine article, then carry the performance on once someone found the clue. That's what the mechanics of a murder mystery are built for.)

(Unicorn hunting is fine with me!)

 

[sv3672]

Were they referring to map scale or the scope of the game itself? Because those are two very, very different things. I'm assuming the latter, because I don't think there's much of value to be gained by making a map 4 times bigger than the Witcher 3 and it's DLC combined... at all. It was plenty big enough as is, and a lot of people felt it was too big (Not me, personally).

With the addition of vehicles, a larger map may make sense, The Witcher 3's world no longer feels so large once you can drive or fly from one end to the other in 5 minutes. Of course, all of it would not be populated with dense and unique content, there would be a lot of buildings and pedestrian NPCs that are essentially decorations (but interacting with the latter in various ways can still be possible, they are just not real permanent characters). Although in a real city you do not talk to most people either if they are just random strangers on the streets, nor can most apartments be entered since the doors are locked or it would be a crime.

Not particularly, it's just that I felt Skyrim was the game that would exhibit the contrast most clearly. Perhaps a better way of generalizing the concept is 3 factors that affect all open-world games.

1.) I want my world to be expansive.
2.) I want my world to be populated with interesting things.
3.) I want my world to dynamic and responsive.

If I want my world to be "seamless"...it automatically limits how much of these 3 things can be put into the world when it loads at launch. (There's only so much that the engine and available RAM can account for at once.) So the options are seamless with 1,200 NPCs spread throughout 30 square miles at 1:30 scale...or...individually-loaded areas, each with up to 6,000 NPCs spread throughout 5 square miles at 1:1 scale.

A large map by itself is not that expensive if it is streamed (dynamically loaded in the background as the player moves around the game world). What is more important is probably the total amount of "local" content that needs to be active at a time in a certain radius centered at the player's location, and the total amount of content in the world that is both dynamic and persistent (since fixed things like the landscape are streamed from read-only game files, and non-persistent entities can be thrown away once they are out of sight long enough, and the resources allocated to them reused). The latter needs to be remembered and stored in save files even if it is in another area that requires a loading screen.

I wonder how much the partitioned design of TW3 was made necessary by technical reasons vs. lore and realism. Regardless of whether merging all the hubs into a single seamless world space is feasible, it just would not make sense to be able to sail from Novigrad to Skellige in a few minutes, and even have the climate change over that time. Anyway, I recall that partitioned world was already chosen for CP2077, at least around 2012-2013, it may have changed since then. On the old poster, I also see something like "two sandbox environments". Perhaps separate world spaces are needed because the areas are too different, e.g. the scale/compression is not the same, not all of them allow the use of vehicles, or other reasons.

What would your solution be for transitioning the player out of the 3D gameplay and into text adventure then back?

It may be more of a mini-game like GWENT, although the transition to 2D is easier to explain in the case of a card game.

 

[Rawls]

I wonder how much the partitioned design of TW3 was made necessary by technical reasons vs. lore and realism. Regardless of whether merging all the hubs into a single seamless world space is feasible, it just would not make sense to be able to sail from Novigrad to Skellige in a few minutes, and even have the climate change over that time. Anyway, I recall that partitioned world was already chosen for CP2077, at least around 2012-2013, it may have changed since then. On the old poster, I also see something like "two sandbox environments". Perhaps separate world spaces are needed because the areas are too different, e.g. the scale/compression is not the same, not all of them allow the use of vehicles, or other reasons.

Just for Reference - Official Maps from Cyberpunk 2020 Night City Sourcebook

Spoiler

Conceptually, I think it's important to have (1) the corporate center, (2) lower class neighborhoods, (3) combat zone, (4) suburban sprawl areas of varying affluence and (5) some sort of Nomad area. Other than including all of those areas to show the vastly inequitable levels of socio-economic status, I'm pretty open to how they design it so long as it's functional and makes sense. If it is indeed still two sandboxes ... I would hope there is one that is "Night City" and one that is a wide open rural Nomad Area. The Nomad tribes could lead to some really interesting faction related stuff.

 

[SigilFey]

A large map by itself is not that expensive if it is streamed (dynamically loaded in the background as the player moves around the game world). What is more important is probably the total amount of "local" content that needs to be active at a time in a certain radius centered at the player's location, and the total amount of content in the world that is both dynamic and persistent (since fixed things like the landscape are streamed from read-only game files, and non-persistent entities can be thrown away once they are out of sight long enough, and the resources allocated to them reused). The latter needs to be remembered and stored in save files even if it is in another area that requires a loading screen.

The way that Skyrim works, while the graphics stream in as individual cells load, the engine is keeping track of (literally) every, single, persistent NPC in the overworld map. Constantly. When I'm in any exterior cell. It's kind of funky to explain how it works. So, a named NPC in one of the villages will be checked and updated every few cycles...even if they're across the bloody world. By default, "cities" don't load until you go through the load door, nor do dungeons, houses, any "interior" cells. So you don't need to worry about those NPCs, but all of the "open" villages (Riverwood, Rorikstead, Falkreath, etc.) are all constantly updating all of their NPCs to see if it's time for them to go inside, chop wood, wander around the graveyard, etc. These calculations severely limit how much can be loaded into the overworld map at once. (It's one reason why mods like the Civil War Overhaul run into many, many bugs.) "Interior" cells are not loaded into memory while bopping around in the overworld, but persistent NPCs that are in certain interiors ARE kept loaded if leaving those interiors is part of their AI package. Nor are overland "random encounters" kept loaded, as those are automatically populated through a leveled list when the cell loads into it's "active" state. However...the actual leveled lists themselves (they used to be represented by "ninja monkey" models in Morrowind) are ALWAYS cached into RAM so that the CPU doesn't actually have to unpack them when the cell loads. So that's even more RAM and CPU cycles being sucked up constantly by things located in every last nook and corner of the overworld...not just in the tiny uGridsToLoad=5 area that the player is presently active in. Add to this the "curse of large numbers" (meaning that the further away in 3D space the calculations are for individual things, the bigger the whole numbers and decimals get, and the harder it is for the CPU to move through each, individual calculation)... Here, the limitations of the engine and the approach quickly start to become clear. (And again -- I'm not "bashing" it in any way! It's a really cool way to handle things! I can't ever remember playing around in a Bethesda world and thinking to myself, "This sucks." It's just that the novelty of this approach has worn off over time, and I have to admit that much of Fallout 4 felt...very stale.)

So my suggested approach would mean more regular and perhaps longer load times, but it would be able to do away with almost all of that overworld restriction. Plus, since each individual area would be smaller, I wouldn't need to worry about those "large numbers" as much. Hooray! That drastically increases the number of NPC instances I can include simultaneously. And each area would still be huge. I'm suggesting individual maps that are about the size of GTA San Andreas (~5-6 sq. miles.)...each. That's still a fraction of Skyrim's 14 sq. miles., and when we're talking radius, cutting the map by more than half is exponentially fewer calculations needed per CPU cycle. There can now be lots and lots and lots of NPCs in each map. There can be miles and miles and miles of wilderness in the game. The overall gameplay area (all areas combined) could realistically be hundreds of sq. miles. But there's no way the world will be seamless.

Regardless of whether merging all the hubs into a single seamless world space is feasible, it just would not make sense to be able to sail from Novigrad to Skellige in a few minutes, and even have the climate change over that time.

And that's the "sense" of scale I'm all about. It would be like arriving in Pale Moon Pass and seeing the White-Gold Tower in the far...far...distance. It takes about 15 minutes at a canter to cross that map. (I'm in this for the sense of "travel".) I get to the edge, the map pops up. I choose Bruma. 14 days pass by. I arrive on the edge of the Bruma map. White-Gold tower has gotten a bit closer now. It's a noticeably larger, hazy spike in the distance. It takes me about 5 minutes to reach the gates of Bruma itself, and the city is gigantic. Hundreds of buildings. Winding streets. People thronging the markets. The temple and castle, absolutely enormous structures, looming over this expansive city. It takes about 15 minutes to cross the city and leave by the south gate, and another 5 minutes to the edge of the area. Map pops up. I select Aleswell. 25 days pass as I cross the province. Aleswell is a tiny village, only 30 buildings or so and an inn. The White-Gold Tower is gleaming spike reflecting the light of the sun, commanding attention if I happen to look up. It's now less than a day away...

I've been leisurely immersing myself in the game for less than 45 minutes, but the sense of distance, weeks and weeks passing, having completed this incredible journey across a literal countryside should be thick enough to cut with a knife.

I wonder how much the partitioned design of TW3 was made necessary by technical reasons vs. lore and realism.

I agree it was a wise choice, same type of sense as above. But each of the areas also had to be separate so that they each had their own color palettes, lighting, skies, weather patterns, etc. to represent the different climates and environments.

It may be more of a mini-game like GWENT, although the transition to 2D is easier to explain in the case of a card game.

And kofeiiniturpa

Precisely what I'm struggling with trying to get it to work. In TW3, I sit down at a table, agree to play cards, and viola, the game transitions to the Gwent screen. Wooden background and card game interface, like I'm looking down at the table. I suppose they could have done things like Far Cry to make it "ultra" immersive, but I imagine it would have interfered quite a bit with people getting a sense of the actual game and learning how to play. So the minigame transition works almost perfectly.

The best I can do with the text adventure thing for CP is:

I walk up to a door. It opens in 3D, but a "frame" or something appears around the screen, and the image becomes a sort of "picture", while still remaining a 3D image. Text fades in and options appear. As I play through the adventure, the image can "shift", in actual 3D, to another "still image". I'm thinking that the "inside of the building" could literally be a pre-generated series of 3D "scenes", and the camera would shift its focus to "frame" the proper scene based upon my choices. So, the thematic art style maintains cohesion with the rest of the game, but the gameplay is a text-based adventure. And the devs don't have to actually model every detail of the interior space.

There's merit to it, but I think I'd still be asking why this wasn't just a normal, interactive quest with full 3D gameplay. Maybe, a separate game could be made using the text adventure concept. Something this limited would probably be able to use the actual game graphics, even on a mobile device. By playing these text-based adventures with my account, I could unlock unique gear, gain skill points, uncover lore, etc. to use in the actual CP2077 game.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

let's say I'm showing a movie. How would I justify stopping the film, bringing up the lights, and asking the audience to read something in a magazine to further the story for the next section.

If it's an avant garde movie where participation is part of the experience....

I get your analogy, but I don't agree that it's the right one here. Movies and games are very different mediums. A game should be allowed to be a game and offer the player all the ways of interacting with it that it possibly can, it shouldn't be troubled with the presentational burdens of another medium.

If there are instances where the player has to read some between decision making, then there are. It needs no further justification than what it does, if what it does makes for a richer gameplay experience.

In any case, what I had in mind with this thing seems to have lived a bit out of what I actually intended. I didn't elaborate it, and I didn't link to where I have explained it... I did not mean a sudden textbased story tyme. But rather a just a brief menubased interaction minigame with the buildings. The text part comes from the player needing it decribed soimehow what is there and what happens with what he does. And this is just to give the drawings of doors that the game will have tons of, some form of purpose beyond looking like doors that you can do nothing with because it is impossible to render the interiors of skyscrapers and other building in that large a city. I don't think it'd be in anyone's benefit to oppose that (don't like it? there should be no obligation to engage with it) unless there's a better way of achieving the same goal.

 

[SigilFey]

If it's an avant garde movie where participation is part of the experience....

Whoops!...see the bottom of the post above. I more or less respond to this there.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Whoops!...see the bottom of the post above. I more or less respond to this there.

Writing at the same time. Didn't see it.

There's merit to it, but I think I'd still be asking why this wasn't just a normal, interactive quest with full 3D gameplay.

The original idea was to increase the voluntary interactivity of the city (if there's story to be had, it comes from what you do and how that results), not to hamfist in text quests. Just to clarify.