A card is OP when :
1) stats prove it is (Gwent up)
2) people (including a mod) trying to justify why it isn't OP. If i was making a post on how triss is OP, everyone would laugh at me because she isn't even close to OP.
3) You can't play around it. With scorch you can. As was seen in the challenger 2 tournament, playing around scorch is strategy and requires skill. But iorveth meditation just punishes you for playing an archetype. You play bears? Punished. You play foglets? Punished. You play any other kind of boost or big minion? Punished.
Plus the duel mechanic (as was shown by forum and steamers) is very confusing even to old players, card text doesn't explain the mechanic clearly plus it requires a lot of calculation. Something that goes against every change they made in this patch to dumb down cards and big "difficult" names. If cards like this are to exist in the game, then i don't see the reason for any balance change (dumbing down) that happened in the update.
1) stats prove it is (Gwent up)
2) people (including a mod) trying to justify why it isn't OP. If i was making a post on how triss is OP, everyone would laugh at me because she isn't even close to OP.
3) You can't play around it. With scorch you can. As was seen in the challenger 2 tournament, playing around scorch is strategy and requires skill. But iorveth meditation just punishes you for playing an archetype. You play bears? Punished. You play foglets? Punished. You play any other kind of boost or big minion? Punished.
Plus the duel mechanic (as was shown by forum and steamers) is very confusing even to old players, card text doesn't explain the mechanic clearly plus it requires a lot of calculation. Something that goes against every change they made in this patch to dumb down cards and big "difficult" names. If cards like this are to exist in the game, then i don't see the reason for any balance change (dumbing down) that happened in the update.
I:M is a high versatile tech card, which can be used for multiple purposes. A power swing is just one command. But I:M can do a lot more... Shut down any card you want to get rid of. Like new Schirru, against MO swarming...
Why again there is a ST bashing, just because ST has given with the midwinter patch one good gold card like I:M? Folks, you are overreacting. Calm down. Elves are not ruling. Period. Dumb dwarves are on the ladder.
Why again there is a ST bashing, just because ST has given with the midwinter patch one good gold card like I:M? Folks, you are overreacting. Calm down. Elves are not ruling. Period. Dumb dwarves are on the ladder.
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RVG1926;n10137652 said:
Points 1 and 2 don't make sense. The third point can be a reason why a card is strong but not necessarily so.
First of all, popularity does not equal strength. Everyone is just blatantly copying the dwarfs without thinking about ways to improve it. Iorveth: Meditations is like the Coral of ST. It does not have any synergy with other cards, but it can be a good card to shut something down and generate a power swing in the process. That's why it can fit in any deck and automatically becomes more popular (just like Coral was the staple of SK). Because dwarfs don't have many synergetic gold cards, it's pretty easy to put in some other gold cards. Ithlinne and Iorveth: Meditations made the list because they have the highest power swing potential. Double Tremors Ithlinne can swing for an insane amount, but just like with Iorveth: Meditations it needs to be used at the right moment, which may never come.
As for the second point, people can claim anything and other people can defend anything. This really gives no indication whatsoever that something is OP or not. Besides, if something seriously think that Triss is too strong, then there might actually be even more reason to explain to that person why she isn't.
Lastly, you could play around Iorveth: Meditations in a number of ways, but it requires more thought. Also, depending on your deck, it might be easier or more difficult. For example, SK can use Armorsmith to protect two units who have an ideal duel ratio. You could also buff one unit out of range. However, the problem with playing around things is that you could be playing into something even worse, like Schirru (Scorch). And this is where the true strength of any deck lies, being able to create a pincer move and crushing your opponent. For example, the opponent is running Igni and Gold Weather. You fear Igni and start placing units on different rows, only to be hit by weather (or Expired Ale). If you have Clear Skies, you can use it, but otherwise you have to get creative. Then if the opponent starts moving units to one row and you cannot move units yourself, you might be able to buff one to prevent a double hit with Igni. It's this dynamic which creates an interesting match.
Also, for the record, the average strength of Iorveth: Meditations is close to 20 strength, which is acceptable. Just don't get greedy with creating two high powered units with ideal duel ratio, when you can prevent it.
4RM3D;n10138032 said:
This.
Just like all other gold cards that provide you with some huge power, knowing when to use it is key. As a primarily ST player myself, I:M card has sat in my hand until last card R3 when it's been more or less a 2pt gold brick as there:
1) hasn't been the availabilty of units to make it worthwhile
2) I've sat on it waiting for a "better" time to use that card that has never come
Sure, I might get some points out of it, but if I'm already behind by a fair margin, then in that situation it's not a game winner - it may give me 6 or 7 point swing; hardly OP when there are bronze units that can do that all day long with almost zero setup.
Like Coral on SK; do you use her R1 to ensure R1 win by compressing a 15pt card to give you advantage? Or do you keep it in your hand until R2/R3 when oppo could possibly use a swarm of lower power units to generate a large gap? Leave it until last card R3 and you may only get an 8pt swing with Coral as opportunity to use is long gone... decisions decisions....
And I think that adding in a card that's 'hard to use' (as in requires some forethought and the player to do some actual calculation) is not a bad thing. If you just want to vomit a load of points onto the board then there are cards that will do that. I:M card requires a lot more thought from those using it, and from those (potentially) playing against it. Simply saying it's OP because it's added a new dynamic to the game or you've been caught out by it or whatever other reason doesn't really make sense; I:M card is not an auto game winner like some... other ...cards and I don't think it's any more or less OP than some other faction specific gold cards in the game at the moment - just mho.
friketje;n10136952 said:
I don't know if I would call it consistent.
4RM3D;n10138032 said:
Like the person above said, Seltkirk is gold with duel mechanic. Compared to Iorveth:Meditation is a useless card, like the majority of golds. Vs bear skellige, I:M on bear-> berserker marauder is a sweet 30 point swing. What can you do to prevent it? Waste 3 bronze slots for armorer that will be useless vs every other game and won't even help vs Meditation? Or as consume deck. Are you gonna stop using consume units, afraiding they will reach too high for I:M? The only thing you can do, is stop playing these decks.
I:M has become a staple on ST decks. CDPR nees to add insane power creep to new golds in order to make people choose something else over it. And about Coral, her effect is already a silver card. Yet, not many people use it. If they add the I:M effect as silver card, it will be staple on every deck.
The solution is simple. Change I:M to duel only adjacent units(2 units that are placed next to eachother). It will give people the ability to play against it. Problem solved.
Without I:M every ST deck falls apart because they can no longer counter anything.
Try playing with the card and see for yourself. It's not that easy to set up, and against decks without big units it's not very strong. Is it a good gold, yes; is it one of the best three in the game I'm not so sure.
You could say the same for Scorch. Scorch on Ciri: Nova is a sweet 25 point swing. What can you do to prevent it? You can't even use three bronze slots for armorer. The only thing you can do is not play a Ciri: Nova deck.
RVG1926;n10139782 said:
You could say the same for Scorch. Scorch on Ciri: Nova is a sweet 25 point swing. What can you do to prevent it? You can't even use three bronze slots for armorer. The only thing you can do is not play a Ciri: Nova deck.
Well obviously most of the ST decks outside of dwarves fall apart without this card. I've been watching some of the streamers lately and for the most part they say dwarves are manageable but they simply put too many points on the board in this current state and you have to have an exemplary performance to keep up. The pros only also beat this card generally because their decks are well suited to playing around this deck, its either adapt to this card or get dominated by it, you can see this in the stats 70.3% win rate using this card in beginners versus 54.3% in the pro matches. I think also the decks that crush this card don't utilize many cards that have been in flavour recently and would require crafting a lot of cards.
This patch was absolutely crazy though and I think once people start picking up the new cards it'll be a bit easier, this was just the first netdeck that people jumped on board with.
This patch was absolutely crazy though and I think once people start picking up the new cards it'll be a bit easier, this was just the first netdeck that people jumped on board with.
Jeydra;n10140382 said:
You can play spies to gain card advantage and play ciri as final card. This is how everyone does it in ciri nova decks. Guess you haven't played the game enough to know this. It's the reason why RNG cards that create spies made a lot of fuss too...
Plus, scorch not only can be a dead card in some games, but can also be played around as it was seen in the esports tournament : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsXdEWhpyiY&t=1h38m48s
Also saying it's not easy to set up I:M it's ridiculous...I:M doesn't need set up by you. It all depends on enemy playing card, any card. And the value is extremely high when you compare it with other golds.
Ijust played a game where I:M made a drowner attack a 11 foglet. Which both of them are normal units. This was a 18 point I:M which was in a relatively short round 3 and it was a worse case scenario. If it was igni instead of I:M, i would just get a 5 point gold backfire. Talking about insane power creep. And not to mention joke cards like Regis, that end up being 1 point gold most of the time.
4RM3D;n10142052 said:
Funny how the most powerful cards like Gigni and Scorch are the most played and most crucial cards on tournaments, but some random Joe will keep them in a short one-turn round 3 and claim they are garbage (worse than bronze)
If this had been posted on Reddit, i don't think there would be anyone to critisize the card instead of the play.
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RVG1926;n10137652 said:
You're not serious about that, what makes you think I (or anyone for that matter) was serious about...
RVG1926;n10143702 said:
...this:
4RM3D;n10142052 said:
Also...
4RM3D;n10142052 said:
...no one was keeping anything. Both players mulliganed into Iorveth in the final round. Not much to do about that.
It's a very good card, just needs some brain to play. Sometimes the swing isn't massive, but it CAN be collossal. It's always good, can be incredible.
RVG1926;n10141312 said:
I'm currently above 4250 MMR, thank you.
You can also play spies to gain card advantage and play your biggest (and thus most vulnerable to I:M) as final card. And don't kid yourself that I:M doesn't need to be set up. Say your opponent has a board of 2 Beastmasters and 2 Bears. Are you going to I:M that? If you're rude enough to allege that I haven't played the game enough to know how spies work with Ciri: Nova, I'll also go ahead and allege that you haven't played with I:M and are just unhappy at losing to it.
Insane power creep is irrelevant. You can argue that Regis is underpowered and maybe he is, but that's not relevant to arguing I:M is overpowered. Also CDPR have evidently made the design decision that all cards should be worth more points. Not all cards have been buffed, and these other cards are therefore setting a baseline as to what's strong and what isn't. For example, weather remains as 2 damage / turn. Increasing the points of every other card is one way of nerfing weather, which is actually something I suggested myself several months ago.
Summary:
1) If you play different points units they will be destroyed by I:M
2) Big or aligned units scorched by Schirrú
3) Spam units even more punished by Ithlinne tremor
4) As they can spawn units from deck or not from it is possible: prevent drypass by spawning resilent dwarfs(and there is wardancers). Clear weather while not burdening deck with special units for it - spawn marauder, mercenary or brigade
5) And you have to keep up with tons of points from other gnomes pulled from graveyard, deck and void
So much strategy, tactic and carefull deck-building
Answer to it? Just play dwarfes too (or spy abuse with Ciri)
Is I:M OP? No, just normal part of healthy, balanced deck
1) If you play different points units they will be destroyed by I:M
2) Big or aligned units scorched by Schirrú
3) Spam units even more punished by Ithlinne tremor
4) As they can spawn units from deck or not from it is possible: prevent drypass by spawning resilent dwarfs(and there is wardancers). Clear weather while not burdening deck with special units for it - spawn marauder, mercenary or brigade
5) And you have to keep up with tons of points from other gnomes pulled from graveyard, deck and void
So much strategy, tactic and carefull deck-building
Answer to it? Just play dwarfes too (or spy abuse with Ciri)
Is I:M OP? No, just normal part of healthy, balanced deck