Should Vicovaro Medics Get Create Ability?

[GenLiu]

I think queens guard decks are still viable tier 2, a lot of you fail to understand that discard is a strong mechanic, it helps provide deck thinning, it helps search for cards you need and its a fine line between making this sort of interaction broken and underused. If you can put 35ish strength into your graveyard and have won either round 1 or 2, it is almost a garenteed win and lets not forget about huge kambi plays. You also probably are forgetting that if SK ever gets a powerful tool to create a short round 1 (which might happen with some card one of these days), that a lot of this set up in round 2 while being negative tempo plays can be totally irrelevant if you don't need the round victory as is with any other carry over effect that may appear weak on the surface.

Also from the flip side playing spies, the vicorovs have downside as well, you can brick quite easily throwing down an early emissiary can see you 2 vicorov medics when your opponent has nothing in their graveyard and you really had virtually no other plays to keep up with tempo (this happens a lot more than you think). Using it to resurect your unit is also draining from the decks own strengths in that resurrecting emissaries is core in making their bronze engine ~(2n-1 + another engine) points each which is far more key for their gameplay than you could imagine. Not to mention if this wasn't their tech card well they would still have sweers and assire and bags full of other tech cards.

The problem with the discard deck isn't its lack of power play but it's lack of consistancy and it's great if it works for you (you might be blessed by the Skellige gods) but for me, Kambi is just a jocke. This card isn't even designed to work out properly anyway, I think CDPR wanted to make it as close as the original Gwent version as possible but then they realised that it's incredibily OP as it was and nerfed it to the ground.
So, sure there is still this game, out of a million, where you'll play it and have everything else in your hand to come back but let's be honest here, it's not gonna happen that often.

About Vicovaro medic being about to brick when your opponent has nothing in his Graveyard, it's kinda the drawback of playing a resurrection unit is it not? The same can very well be said for Priestess of Freya for example. Every card has a loophole (or everyone should have one at the very least).

 

[HTMekkatorque]

The problem with the discard deck isn't its lack of power play but it's lack of consistancy and it's great if it works for you (you might be blessed by the Skellige gods) but for me, Kambi is just a jocke. This card isn't even designed to work out properly anyway, I think CDPR wanted to make it as close as the original Gwent version as possible but then they realised that it's incredibily OP as it was and nerfed it to the ground.
So, sure there is still this game, out of a million, where you'll play it and have everything else in your hand to come back but let's be honest here, it's not gonna happen that often.

About Vicovaro medic being about to brick when your opponent has nothing in his Graveyard, it's kinda the drawback of playing a resurrection unit is it not? The same can very well be said for Priestess of Freya for example. Every card has a loophole (or everyone should have one at the very least).

Yes priestess of freya can brick but the moment you see double vicarov from an emissary and it's your only options then you know you're in for a tough match whereas this leads to limitations on deck building, like maybe i'll only take 2 in my deck so this cannot happen if i have one in hand and one in my deck but the main thing i'm trying to get at is that it bricks your emissary, it can often lead down another bad opportunity if you see a vicorov medic with an infiltrator as you play the infiltrator is a waste and the only thing you can do is make the emissary a non spying unit which is also only netting you 8 points for that bronze, once again might make the setup on that meno coehorn more difficult. The freya on the other hand never really has that option to be drawn out, I'm totally fine with this interaction I'm just stating that this kind of play has more draw backs than you are realising. It also can often pick units that have less synergies with your units if not used to pick up emissaries and that is the other main draw back of the unit.

I think the reason the Queensguards decks aren't being played is more due to their underlying strength not being on par with more popular dwarfs and monster decks, and not the fact that they will see vicorov medics in about 3% of the games. Statistically you're unlikely to see any NG leaders other than emhyr using them because only emhyr and calveit are semi popular choices right now and it's not in many calveit lists. I can think of a kambi list that could take you to 4250+ atleast at the moment, but I don't have the cards to play that list out so I'll be sticking to my axemen.

 

[Sheva007]

If something , create ability should be removed from the game completely, not being granted to more units.

 

[GenLiu]

I think the reason the Queensguards decks aren't being played is more due to their underlying strength not being on par with more popular dwarfs and monster decks, and not the fact that they will see vicorov medics in about 3% of the games. Statistically you're unlikely to see any NG leaders other than emhyr using them because only emhyr and calveit are semi popular choices right now and it's not in many calveit lists. I can think of a kambi list that could take you to 4250+ atleast at the moment, but I don't have the cards to play that list out so I'll be sticking to my axemen.

Honestly? I have quiet a good success against dwarf using my QG deck. If you manage your game properly you can out value it.

Now you're right, the primary reason for QG not being played isn't Vicavaro medics but Monster consume which commonly run Caretaker. Vicavaro are just the decisive blow.

That said, don't forget about Slave driver deck which is fairly popular and run Vicavaro AND slave drivers (which are insane because they can spawn QG and the deck can even resurrect them....yep)

 

[iamthedave]

The underlying issue is a broader one: should a bronze unit counter entire deck archetypes?

Would it be fine for CDPR to print a NR faction unit that read simply: Spies cannot be played for the rest of the game (this effect continues if this card is removed)?

This would have a broad application, sure, but what it really does is nerf a specific deck: NG spies. As I've clearly laid out, Vico is used in actually very few decks in NG right now, because he's situational. The one deck where Vico is commonly used uses him to resurrect its own units. Our theoretical spy-hoser would be played by people who don't like the spy meta.

What about 'when a player kills their own units, those units are banished instead of sent to the graveyard'? Broad application, affects several decks. Completely shuts down consume as a strategy.

Vico going on as is - which is fine if you want - requires a consideration of whether you want more such bronze 'tech' cards, because the real world application of Vicovaro Medic is as a specific unit played in a specific deck and occasionally doubling as a SK hoser. And while we've talked a lot about QG because they're the most extreme example, there are plenty of other SK deck types that this devastates. I personally played a game against a Greatsword deck where I sweersed all their longships and all their greatswords, and then used slave drivers to do their own strategy more than they were because I kept stealing good greatswords. I'm fairly sure the player would have reached through his TV and strangled me, had he the opportunity.

He had no chance against me. None. And it was all because of Vicovaro. Even without Sweers, I was going to steal his Greatswords and he couldn't have stopped me.

That is a level of power that requires consideration. Just as CDPR absolutely needs to look at the create bronzes. Slave Driver is dubiously powerful. Elven Scout does nuts things at times. The dorf version has been broken spectacularly.

Vico with create would have the exact same role, but he wouldn't so brutally shut down multiple deck types in one of the game's factions. I don't see this proposed change affecting how Vicovaro is used even one bit.

 

[Kirschtorte]

Sure, no!

 

[HTMekkatorque]

The underlying issue is a broader one: should a bronze unit counter entire deck archetypes?

Would it be fine for CDPR to print a NR faction unit that read simply: Spies cannot be played for the rest of the game (this effect continues if this card is removed)?

This would have a broad application, sure, but what it really does is nerf a specific deck: NG spies. As I've clearly laid out, Vico is used in actually very few decks in NG right now, because he's situational. The one deck where Vico is commonly used uses him to resurrect its own units. Our theoretical spy-hoser would be played by people who don't like the spy meta.

What about 'when a player kills their own units, those units are banished instead of sent to the graveyard'? Broad application, affects several decks. Completely shuts down consume as a strategy.

Vico going on as is - which is fine if you want - requires a consideration of whether you want more such bronze 'tech' cards, because the real world application of Vicovaro Medic is as a specific unit played in a specific deck and occasionally doubling as a SK hoser. And while we've talked a lot about QG because they're the most extreme example, there are plenty of other SK deck types that this devastates. I personally played a game against a Greatsword deck where I sweersed all their longships and all their greatswords, and then used slave drivers to do their own strategy more than they were because I kept stealing good greatswords. I'm fairly sure the player would have reached through his TV and strangled me, had he the opportunity.

He had no chance against me. None. And it was all because of Vicovaro. Even without Sweers, I was going to steal his Greatswords and he couldn't have stopped me.

That is a level of power that requires consideration. Just as CDPR absolutely needs to look at the create bronzes. Slave Driver is dubiously powerful. Elven Scout does nuts things at times. The dorf version has been broken spectacularly.

Vico with create would have the exact same role, but he wouldn't so brutally shut down multiple deck types in one of the game's factions. I don't see this proposed change affecting how Vicovaro is used even one bit.

I think your logic is just wrong and flawed. Tech cards have a time and a place in this game and I base most of my deck choices around what I'm teching for, if they delete tech cards I'm going to hop board some other games band wagon. The game has had a turn for the worse enough with all this discover and the only time I can see discover being okay is if only one or two cards had this ability but nobody even knows what they are placing on the board anymore. Playing a card from your deck is good because it can be analysed statistically and you can use logic to improve your chances, think do I go with the "greedy play" or the "safe play". The only time the discover mechanic is fine is when it's limited to a small pool of cards and you feel like you have a 1/3 option to get something you need, actually you don't just feel it, you know those are your odds and percentages. It add's a bit of depth in that you may have to think about every card that is a possible draw from the discover and their viability in improving your advantages versus the cons of getting your worst case scenario. If you can discover a card from an entire faction pool, there is no way to know or think I will get this one card, it will make me win, and if you do play like that then you're probably not playing a very intelligent strategy.

 

[Pruny]

Make emisaries doomed instead.

 

[partci]

I'm reading some of the comments and my head just... explodes.

Why not delete all factions and archetypes except SK QG? This will make for a fun game than, no?

 

[iamthedave]

I think your logic is just wrong and flawed. Tech cards have a time and a place in this game and I base most of my deck choices around what I'm teching for, if they delete tech cards I'm going to hop board some other games band wagon. The game has had a turn for the worse enough with all this discover and the only time I can see discover being okay is if only one or two cards had this ability but nobody even knows what they are placing on the board anymore. Playing a card from your deck is good because it can be analysed statistically and you can use logic to improve your chances, think do I go with the "greedy play" or the "safe play". The only time the discover mechanic is fine is when it's limited to a small pool of cards and you feel like you have a 1/3 option to get something you need, actually you don't just feel it, you know those are your odds and percentages. It add's a bit of depth in that you may have to think about every card that is a possible draw from the discover and their viability in improving your advantages versus the cons of getting your worst case scenario. If you can discover a card from an entire faction pool, there is no way to know or think I will get this one card, it will make me win, and if you do play like that then you're probably not playing a very intelligent strategy.

So you support the existence of tech cards that completely hose other strategies? Not 'contributes to weakening' or 'cog in a machine that defeats' but 'I play this card, this deck is dead'.

For another example, do you put your support behind this following card: SUMMON HOSER: 6pts bronze, cards cannot be played from decks? (so it would shut down cards such as NG recruit, which plays another soldier from your deck, would stop the dun banner cavalry from auto-summoning, muster units, and so on and so forth)

To emphasis, I'm not saying this is bad or wrong. I'm just trying to get clarification. What I see a lot of here is blind defending of the status quo and very little attempt to look at the Vicovaro Medic as a card, based on what it does and what it actually is, and what that implies for the game and the game's development. And what I see consistently in communities is blind hypocrisy, where people will justify the existence of a card that destroys decks they don't play, then scream imbalance when the card inevitably comes along that destroys their deck.

In the instance we are discussing, Vico would simply be changed to 'create a copy of a card in the other player's graveyard'. Explain to me exactly why this would be a problematic change. This change would be EXACTLY what you just said. Vico's pool would be the cards in the opponent's graveyard. No RNG involved.

I'm reading some of the comments and my head just... explodes.

Why not delete all factions and archetypes except SK QG? This will make for a fun game than, no?

Could you demonstrate which comments led you to believe that someone's calling for all other factions and archetypes to be removed from the game? I don't think I see those words posted anywhere but in your post.

 

[partci]

"It messes with my QG", "I can't play my Skellige GY", bla-bla-bla.

What, there should not be a counter to your GY use in this game? How often does Vicovaros are used to steal stuff from there? When you start buffing your shit or put 8 STR OP Beastmaster there, maybe?

Vicovaro Medics are perfectly fine, look at your own strategies. Like the guys that cry about Ciri: Nova and everything else under the sun.

 

[iamthedave]

"It messes with my QG", "I can't play my Skellige GY", bla-bla-bla.

What, there should not be a counter to your GY use in this game? How often does Vicovaros are used to steal stuff from there? When you start buffing your shit or put 8 STR OP Beastmaster there, maybe?

Vicovaro Medics are perfectly fine, look at your own strategies. Like the guys that cry about Ciri: Nova and everything else under the sun.

Then do you support the existence of bronze cards that completely shut down every other strategy in the game? Or do you simply like that Skellige has a tech card against the faction's one (semi) unique gimmick? Hence why I mention the existence of a theoretical card to hose spies.

Do you support the existence of cards like Vico that would hose other strategies such as consume?

 

[partci]

Then do you support the existence of bronze cards that completely shut down every other strategy in the game?...

SK GY is "every other strategy in the game"?

Every Faction needs to have cards that counter other Factions strategies. It's called "control" for a reason and Vicovaros are exactly where they need to be.

 

[Khreygond]

you do realize even in the case of SK discard you can just, you know ,wait, before you start filling up your graveyard with bronzes? let your opponent play his medics first even on the offchance that you encounter a deck that runs them? Not to mention that really, Vicovaros vs SK gy is really what Alzur's Thunder vs Any Engine unit in a deck with no revivals is. Sure let's nerf Alzur's thunder too. No one should be able to stop engines at all. It was already bad enough being unable to remove anything because SK has so many revives, now that one bronze can actually do it, people want its ability changed.

The key in Gwent is accounting for as many of your deck's weaknesses as possible. if your weakness are gy tamperers then you have a problem with consume monsters, (Alghoul), Caretaker, formerly Archgriffin (meaning before the patch), Donar an Hindar AND Vicovaro Medics. Not just the last one.

And I am all for not letting the medics steal anything they want. Nerfing them by prohibiting them from stealing units beyond STR 10 would be a great idea. But that is different than what I see being suggested here, which is completely changing their ability

 

[iamthedave]

SK GY is "every other strategy in the game"?

Every Faction needs to have cards that counter other Factions strategies. It's called "control" for a reason and Vicovaros are exactly where they need to be.

Excellent. So you can now furnish me with the bronze cards that easily and effectively shut down the following strategies:

Elven Handbuff
Nekker Consume
Foltest Swarm
Spellatael (the key bronze card in question)
NG Spies
NG Alchemy

Since every faction needs cards to counter these strategies, you can surely reveal them to me, and please explain exactly how they completely shut down the strategies mentioned above, too. It's no good shutting down only one card. The one bronze card you can surely bring up must completely screw up the game plan.

you do realize even in the case of SK discard you can just, you know ,wait, before you start filling up your graveyard with bronzes? let your opponent play his medics first even on the offchance that you encounter a deck that runs them? Not to mention that really, Vicovaros vs SK gy is really what Alzur's Thunder vs Any Engine unit in a deck with no revivals is. Sure let's nerf Alzur's thunder too. No one should be able to stop engines at all.

Ah yes, the traditional 'let the NG player play his Vicovaro's into an empty graveyard' strategy. I never thought of that. Many are the times I've encountered NG players playing Vicos on their very first turn when they go first, as opposed to... you know... waiting for something important to resurrect.

My point, that is clearly not getting through to you, is that most engines in the game CAN'T be stopped. By all means prove me wrong. Take up the challenge I laid out above. Reveal unto me the singular bronze unit and/or spell that completely shuts down the above mentioned six strategies.

Gwent isn't usually about shutting down the engines, it's about mitigating the consequences. The only true control deck I can think of is spellatael, which relies on killing absolutely everything while buffing up enormous finishers in the process... which you cannot prevent. Unless you can think of a card I can't which will prevent the elves in the spellatael deck from gaining a point of strength every time a spell is played by the player. Last I checked, all you can do is try and kill them once they've been played.

At which juncture can you influence the ENGINE, as opposed to deal with the results?

If you want all engines in the game to be interactable, that's fine. At least you'd be consistent. Instead the argument is 'I want to be able to shut down SK graveyard engines, but they're not allowed to touch mine'.

 

[masterring]

Make emisaries doomed instead.

This is what I said numerous times. Let them steal whatever they like but not bloody guys that draws all your deck in two turns.

Or make em rez only Loyal Units