Jezaboom you summed it up finely! Couldnt of said it better myself :cheers3:
Jezaboom2;n10397932 said:
First of all a small detour. Every time when CDPR makes a mistake in balancing things, there are always players that immediately claim that the studio is only doing it for financial gain and that CDPR is turning the game into pay2win. That's not only being shortsighted, but also being unforgiving, especially because most know the history of the studio and know how generous they have been in the past. At the very least, I would expect the benefit of the doubt in terms of financial gain. Also, more practically speaking, it's very easy to create a new deck once you have climbed the ranks. Any free2play user can make a new deck at the start of the season, if not for the fact that they wait to see what becomes meta, rather than that they have to gather scraps for it.
As for the overall balance of the game, that's a different story. CDPR is new to the genre and even though they are a big company, they are still learning. It's a journey for them and certain paths have more obstacles than others. That doesn't mean we should accept all the mistakes they make, but we should remain respectful towards them and hopeful for the future.
Jezaboom2;n10397932 said:
Rewards and MMR are not weighted on the same scale and cannot be compared with each other. Halving the duration of the seasons and their respective rewards doesn't mean that the MMR should be doubled. A lot of players were being inactive during the old two season cycle, only being active at the start and near the end of the season, while idling in between. By shortening the seasons CDPR wanted to keep players engaged. Though, there is a fine line between keeping engaged and turning the game into a grind. That's why it's not as easy to tweak the MMR as one might think. Maybe CDPR is using this season as a test to create a baseline. Either way, I expect some changes sooner rather than later.
4RM3D;n10398232 said:
If you have ever formally studied marketing you would recognise that for every customer who voices a dissatisfied opinion... they are the tip of the ice berg representing the multitude of others who simply and silently walk away to never return. Implying people who voice such opinions as being shortsighted and unforgiving doesn't exactly do wonders in helping to address their concerns.
In fairness towards CDPR, if you refer to my entire post I did acknowledge that this was their first foray into a micro transaction styled game and I was quite glowing towards their previous endeavours. Even if CDPR was the best gaming company in the world, unfortunately the nature of the beast when it comes to micro transaction games is ultimately pay2win (even if it is not the full intention of the developers) sneaks its way into the game. There will always be some free2play users who have oodles of time to grind away and thus be able to hold their own against the pay2play players, but for the majority of the gaming community who might make the "absurd" decision that Gwent isn't going to over take their day to day lives... for them unless they go down the pay2play path then it will never be a level playing field.
The danger for CDPR is due to the amazing games that they have previously released they run the very real risk of damaging their reputation if they get it wrong... and there is a vey simple reason for this too. Take for example Witcher 3... they literally spent millions on this game and literally had a cast of thousands to make it too. A copy of Witcher 3 when it first came out in Australia was around AUD$100 (now days its around $30). By comparison the Gwent "Best Value" x60 keg deal cost $97.95... and for that you will be guaranteed to get a bucket load of spares and the reality is that even if there were no spares, x60 kegs is not sufficient for a player to adequately progress throughout the game.
At the end of the day as there are so many games out there 3 key questions gamers will often ask are...
Am I getting value for money?
How engaging and enjoyable is the game?
How time consuming will it be?
From this perspective players coming to Gwent will likely be initially aware of CDPR's amazing reputation and value for money which their games had previously offered... thus the risk to CDPR's reputation getting tarnished is quite high when they get it wrong.
Gwent has the potential to be a truly amazing game and perhaps to realise its true potential, CDPR might have to make some bold decisions about the model they ultimately choose to monetise it. For example do you know if CDPR has ever considered making Gwent into a monthly subscription (with an open card library) instead of being micro transaction based?
4RM3D;n10398232 said:
True, rewards and MMR are not weighted on the same scale, but you can't have a single sided coin, and in that sense they are different sides of the same coin. CDPR in recognising the side containing the rewards has created a lot of frustration amongst the community by looking at this in isolation, without looking at the other side of the coin... the MMR as well.
Based on your take, CDPR wanted players to effectively be more engaged... which translates into investing the time and effort which they would have previously dedicated to the game over a 2 month period... to be compressed into a 1 month period. In essence this equals players doubling their efforts whilst CDPR by not addressing the MMR at the same time is effectively halving their rewards.
I'm not denying that getting the MMR balance right isn't easy, but then again identifying cause and effect isn't rocket science either.
Jezaboom2;n10398312 said:
A distinction should be made between the player base. Some players either don't know what's good for them or they are just being unreasonable. Though, others may actually have a valid argument. In the end, CDPR does listen to the community (e.g. restoring card names), but they cannot implement everything, not only because of time constrains, but also because certain decisions are mutually exclusive with others. Regardless, whatever CDPR decides, there will always be players who dislike the game. The best thing CDPR can do is balance their vision of the game with the wishes of the community as a whole.
Jezaboom2;n10398312 said:
I don't know, but it's not really relevant anymore, anyway. CDPR went on a different path and it's too late to turn around, if that actually would have been a good idea to begin with, which is debatable. FYI, subscription based is a horrible idea, but let's assume you were talking about a Living Card Game, instead.
Jezaboom2;n10398312 said:
There are too many games out there and too little time (and/or money). The questions you are asking are good, but still does not cover the full extend of ones choices. Gwent can be played in many different ways. For most players, I guess it's just a daily routine to kill an hour or two. It's different from an immersive single player game like the Witcher 3. Everyone has their preferences and reasons for playing certain games in certain ways. It's an interesting topic, but it goes beyond the scope of this thread.
Jezaboom2;n10398312 said:
Like I've mentioned, I think a lot of players are idling mid season. Anyhow, we've both said our piece. Now we'll have to wait and see what CDPR decides to do.
Im stuck at top 500 to scared of not vomiting enough dorf power to go up further, this meta is lovely this season isnt it :hai:
anyway Cdpr please make 2 month seasons again, 1 month of grind!? Aint no one got time for that
anyway Cdpr please make 2 month seasons again, 1 month of grind!? Aint no one got time for that
4RM3D;n10398422 said:
Thanks for sharing your views, in some aspects it seems we share similar views, in other areas... we could probably discuss it until the cows come home. One thing I like about this forum... as a generalisation people seem to be a lot more respectful towards differences in opinion compared to some of the other game forums out there
I personally do feel rewards and MMR are closer than one might believe, but let me explain.
I am the type of person who gets really into a game and plays the hell out of it, I study everything. I'm a huge fan of the Whicher and love gwent in general. My main goal is to get my hands on as many cards as I can so I can spend hours building decks trying to come up with new ideas. That said I need cards to do so. I don't care about being "the best", I don't care about titles or borders even though some of them look really cool like the monster one I just got. I like gwent so much that I even paid for kegs because again I love the Witcher and CDPR for making the effort to really make a great game. I respect that so I don't mind spending money on them.
What does MMR do for me? It gets me kegs. If I reach rank 20 I get 4 or 5 more kegs plus one more at the end of the month. The higher I get the more kegs I get and the more I can do what I like to do which is build decks and try out new stuff. I believe the reason most average players go idle in a two month season is because they can't advance and aren't earning anything, at least that was the case for me. I simply stop playing and watch videos instead of playing because there's no way for me to advance.
Now I pulled out cash and come to find out that this method gets me very little to nothing and although I'm ready to throw 20 or so a month at this game NO GAME is worth me throwing 200 or 300 dollars at it which by the looks of it is what it would take and even then I'd get mostly cards I don't even want from factions I don't like.
I know what's good for me and and have too much pride to throw that much money at digital cards, it just isn't going to happen. The rewards slowed down and so did the fun for me. The slower MMR is part of what slows down the rewards.
If they would sell scraps...I'd be tempted to buy 100 dollars worth or so to get what I want. As is they are trying to play on the gambling addiction part of people which is exactly why Battlefront 2 is causing politicians to look at gaming as a whole.
They really should rethink how they are going about all of this, even for money you simply can't get ahead.
I am the type of person who gets really into a game and plays the hell out of it, I study everything. I'm a huge fan of the Whicher and love gwent in general. My main goal is to get my hands on as many cards as I can so I can spend hours building decks trying to come up with new ideas. That said I need cards to do so. I don't care about being "the best", I don't care about titles or borders even though some of them look really cool like the monster one I just got. I like gwent so much that I even paid for kegs because again I love the Witcher and CDPR for making the effort to really make a great game. I respect that so I don't mind spending money on them.
What does MMR do for me? It gets me kegs. If I reach rank 20 I get 4 or 5 more kegs plus one more at the end of the month. The higher I get the more kegs I get and the more I can do what I like to do which is build decks and try out new stuff. I believe the reason most average players go idle in a two month season is because they can't advance and aren't earning anything, at least that was the case for me. I simply stop playing and watch videos instead of playing because there's no way for me to advance.
Now I pulled out cash and come to find out that this method gets me very little to nothing and although I'm ready to throw 20 or so a month at this game NO GAME is worth me throwing 200 or 300 dollars at it which by the looks of it is what it would take and even then I'd get mostly cards I don't even want from factions I don't like.
I know what's good for me and and have too much pride to throw that much money at digital cards, it just isn't going to happen. The rewards slowed down and so did the fun for me. The slower MMR is part of what slows down the rewards.
If they would sell scraps...I'd be tempted to buy 100 dollars worth or so to get what I want. As is they are trying to play on the gambling addiction part of people which is exactly why Battlefront 2 is causing politicians to look at gaming as a whole.
They really should rethink how they are going about all of this, even for money you simply can't get ahead.
4RM3D;n10395432 said:
I personally despise every Video Game Company that takes advantage of a very debatable profit model, like RNG boxes. In particular those that SELL in-game items that goes beyond cosmetics and sort of.
By one side, I can't that much blame CDPR for adopting this system (curse you EA), after all, so many other companies are taking advantage of it, why shouldn't CDPR too? Yes, why not, many do it! But in this way, you are trading your credibility in front of all gaming community. I did put CDPR on Tier 1 game developer beside colossus like Blizzard with the Wthicher trilogy, but now?
I mean, come guys, CDPR ins't "HELLO GAMES" that started their venture on Kickstarter or Patreon the past year, but a well consolidated studio in about a deacade. Not all alibis are justified.
The fact that the game gets money while in beta (and testers gets cheap candies), tells it long way. High profit with minimum investment.
But what bothers me the most, is seeing investment spent to advertising tournaments and sort of on a unfinished product? Really? Well... Some may find it cool, I find it very controversial and makes me quite doubtful. Trust level went pretty down while seeing all of this. From the stars to clouds.
I read the entire original post in the voice of a BBC newscaster. Had a little giggle, so I did.
I can't argue against the MW Patch being a complete mess, but let's not lose all perspective; CDPR are aware and hopefully things will improve going forward.
I can't argue against the MW Patch being a complete mess, but let's not lose all perspective; CDPR are aware and hopefully things will improve going forward.
I don't mind a short season. The MMR gain at the start was good, and felt like it was possible, then they reverted back to the old system. <18 mmr for win and negative 20 to 30 mmr for loss. Back to the good old grind, 24x7 and no rest.
Also coin filp should be fixed so that if you win on Blue coin you gain 10 to 20% more mmr, and lose 10 to 20% less mmr if you lose.
Generally a losing streak and tilting mmr means you been getting a blue coin streak.
Also coin filp should be fixed so that if you win on Blue coin you gain 10 to 20% more mmr, and lose 10 to 20% less mmr if you lose.
Generally a losing streak and tilting mmr means you been getting a blue coin streak.
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because if it's not, then there won't be enough players exceeding it to fill out the pro ladder...Maerd;n10397042 said:
... and that not counting the argument of how deeply rewards have been cut. it looks like they are the same over a 2mo period, but it's really not because of the more difficult ladder climb (1/2 the time to reach the same height), the loss of rewards for ranks skipped, and the higher skip (which means less rewards earned during season) don't total up to what you'd earn in the same time period previous... by a minimum of 50%
21? Hell I can't even pass 18 at this point and I'm surprised as shit I even got here since I haven't played one single game with netdecks or unbalanced overpowered exploit cards like dwarves, bears or spies.
That's because the whole system is not good. In my opinion, 1 win or loss should not jump you as high as 2000 places up or down.Void_Singer;n10406882 said:
As I see it, it should be a winning % over several games at the same rank as you are (with a minimal threshold on number of games), which is updated, for instance, every week (can vary). Top 25% that are within games played threshold (i.e. played at least 20 games) will go to the next rank, lower 25% who played at least three games, will loose a rank, if the person didn't play at least 3 games they just stay there, marked idle. Being idle is fine, which allows you to have a life and you won't be punished for that but in the leader board idle players should be marked as such (i.e. "idle for 5 weeks"). If you idle for a very prolonged period of time (i.e. half a year) then you'll get disqualified and have to start from scratch. In this case you don't have to play 24/7 to reach the high ranks if you're a great player, can have a break, and so forth.
Rewards are compensated by "quests", which allows you to have about 1 extra barrel a day without even trying. That's 30 barrels per month, which is very generous.Void_Singer;n10406882 said:
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while I agree with the general sentiment on place jumping, I do believe it should be difficult to reach the upper levels. something like agregate percentage of win/loss record feels more fair above the the 21 level, with an slight edge given to to more frequent players (because it means more consisstency of their numbers)Maerd;n10408772 said:
I can't speak about pre midwinter patch, I started playing after it, but I did manage quite a bit more than those 30 barrels from ranking on the ladder, and quests were already a thing... I also gutted 2 starting factions to do it (calculated risk)... given what I know now I probably wouldn't have done that though.
But if we're going to consider that a change that added rewards before the season end changes counts as comppensating for the changes thata came after then we'd also need to consider that the first set of changes resulted in a ~33% increase in cards and a higher proportion of them being silver+
This Jezaboom2 guy is pretty awasome. Very nice points and argumentation.
I fully identify with a disgruntled and disengaged player of gwent. Its been more than 3 months since i've stopped playing, despite watching gwent matches by swim, kbt and merchant everyday as well as attending the forums.
I fully identify with a disgruntled and disengaged player of gwent. Its been more than 3 months since i've stopped playing, despite watching gwent matches by swim, kbt and merchant everyday as well as attending the forums.
Played the game for three weeks. It was suppose to be this great game of strategy and depth. Far exceeding Hearthstone an older web article stated. Meh. Just another CCG to me. A lot of wash rinse repeat play. Most OP faction and cards used. Got bored fast and I uninstalled.