Imlerith: Sabbath

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Should Sabbath be removed from the game?


  • Total voters
    68
Can't quote from phone for some reason....

Jeydra i dont want to go in long debate about how this card performs vs alchemy ng, but you have a point.
However it's a bit more complicated and you also need to take into account which round it is and so on.
For example if it is round 1, by killing viper witcher you are giving your opponent the best target for resurection, while with empty graveyard he might have some dead cards in his hand.

But anyway we just need to wait for 1-2 weeks and see. I myself complained about ciri nova when it was introduced. I still don't like the design, but i got used to it.
 
Jeydra;n10591172 said:
Iorveth doesn't kill it either (if buffed by Royal Decree). Neither does a Swordmaster buffed by Iorveth (= 6 points). Remember if it doesn't die in a single turn it can be healed / buffed.

If you have to play Hawker Support before Swordmaster, you're risking not only opponent playing Mandrake (= your Swordmaster again no longer kills it). It means Imlerith: Sabbath gets to duel one more time. Remember that each time it duels it's worth like 8+ points both from the damage it does and the fact it heals by 2. In other words:

The turn it comes down: ~8 points
The turn afterwards: ~8 points
And then you kill it (~5 points, since you spent 5 points of removal to kill it)

That's a 21-power gold. Not just that, it also assumes that the opponent is unable to heal it.

Another way to look at Imlerith: Sabbath is to compare it vs. other engine cards.

Imlerith: Sabbath generates ~8 points / turn on the condition that the opponent plays a unit (i.e. it does nothing if opponent's board is empty).
Korathi Heatwave / Rag Nar Rogh generates up to 6 points / turn, but you need support from movement cards to keep up the points generation.
Skellige Storm - 4 points / turn assuming support from movement cards.
Yennefer: Conjurer generates ~1-3 points / turn. Can be played around relatively easily.
Triss: Butterfly generates ~1-3 points / turn. Can also be played around relatively easily (especially with frost).
Knight-Elect / Farseer with Dragoon backup / single row of weather - 2 points / turn.
Vrihedd Dragoon / Reinforced Trebuchet / Hawker Smuggler (usually)/ Light Longship etc - 1 point / turn.

Look at that again. Imlerith: Sabbath generates 8 points a turn. What does that tell you?

I've killed thing at least 5 times in the past two days. Twice the guy dropped him at the start of the round and it got murdered by Iorvith, I thought "lol". The rest was me seeing monsters and knowing it was inevitable I had a swordmaster waiting at 11 points by the time it hit the board. It's too easy to remove. Outlaw and mandrake are in my deck too so theres no way I dont get either with Francesca.

The other outcome is people keep crying, it gets nerfed and the wild hunt has yet another useless card because people refuse to adapt. I've complained about NG handbuff but there you gotta put out 14 removal in one go or it's game over. I'm all for balance but this is ridiculous, it's 7 to 9 points.

I assume many people here are using that Brouver trash, time to switch it up. That deck doesn't cut it anymore. If you are using Francesca and you see monsters your first move should be to play her if you mulliganed crap. Every faction has loads of removal at their disposal, mages, thunder, mandrake etc. I'm not even a top player and I have no issue killing it but yes, he does require respect.

Let monsters have one good card.
 
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Hellsmoke77;n10591532 said:
I assume many people here are using that Brouver trash
Indeed, Imerlith slaughters that deck just by himself. And people are just lazy to update their decks just because they copied it, and it worked last season.
 
Hellsmoke77;n10591532 said:
I've killed thing at least 5 times in the past two days. Twice the guy dropped him at the start of the round and it got murdered by Iorvith, I thought "lol". The rest was me seeing monsters and knowing it was inevitable I had a swordmaster waiting at 11 points by the time it hit the board. It's too easy to remove. Outlaw and mandrake are in my deck too so theres no way I dont get either with Francesca.

The other outcome is people keep crying, it gets nerfed and the wild hunt has yet another useless card because people refuse to adapt. I've complained about NG handbuff but there you gotta put out 14 removal in one go or it's game over. I'm all for balance but this is ridiculous, it's 7 to 9 points.

I assume many people here are using that Brouver trash, time to switch it up. That deck doesn't cut it anymore. If you are using Francesca and you see monsters your first move should be to play her if you mulliganed crap. Every faction has loads of removal at their disposal, mages, thunder, mandrake etc. I'm not even a top player and I have no issue killing it but yes, he does require respect.

Let monsters have one good card.

The Viper Witcher analysis applies - Imlerith: Sabbath was worth ~17 points even if it dies immediately.

Also Brouver is actually affected less by this than some other decks. Iorveth kills a non-Royal Decree'd Imlerith: Sabbath and they usually have Ida as well. Elven Scout can generate a Panther, Isengrim: Outlaw can pull another Ida. Some other decks that are impacted more: Axemen, Consume, all NR decks unless running Dethmold, Greatsword. Ironic, eh?
 
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I mean, he doesn't even get strengthened. With a powerful enough unit you may kill him simply with duel damage. An 11 STR unit can destroy him.

A card that is in danger from so many other cards does not seem to be that strong to me. I use him too but in the three tests of this deck I've never drawn him or Ge'els in my hand. The one time I did there was a connection problem. I've been thinking of running some removal now though.

But we'll see once the meta settles :)
 
So funny. When everyone was complaining about how broken Roche:Merciless is because it destroys ambush mechanic (as if) i pointed out how insane imlerith is but nobody noticed back then. Vanilla he can already break archetypes once you buff him he breaks games once you protect him he destroys our fabric of reality^^
 

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I faced him a few times. Killed him the first time then got resurrected with mandrake on top, no removals left. GG.
 
I want to try analyze this objectively and sum up some of the arguments in this thread.

1) If he is played normaly, he can kill
a) an up to 8 strength unit and be killed afterwards by 7 points of removal.
b) an up to 5 strength unit and be killed afterwards by 9 points of removal.
c) nothing if the enemy has an unit with 11 strength or more
2) He is played by
i) Royal Command
ii) player has 2 Drakkars on the board.
2.1 Which both makes him 7 strength +2. This way he can either kill:
a) an up to 11 strength unit and be killed by 7 points of removal afterwards
b) an up to 9 strength unit and be killed by 9 points of removal
c) an up to 8 strength unit and be killed by 10 points of removal, such that he is out of Alzurs range
d) nothing if the enemy has a unit with 16 strength or more
3) He is boosted only by 1 point from a Drakar. This way he can either kill:
a) an up to 10 strength unit and be killed by 7 points of removal
b) an up to 7 strength unit and be killed by 9 points of removal
c) an up to 6 strength unit and be killed by 10 points of removal
d) nothing, if the enemy has at least an 11 strength unit


These are most of the situations happening after him being played.

3. So what can be done to counter him:
3.1 using Mandrake immediantly afterwards, which will directly kill him and make the enemy unable to revive him. This gives the Imlerith player an advantage of exactly the number of points that he removed. In most cases this will make this a trade a silver versus a gold and at least 5 points, which is worth for the Imlerith player. With Whisperess or Vesemir it can be slightly disadvantegous for the Imlerith player, but nonetheless, now the enemy has to run exactly those cards and sacrafice a silver and a gold card for it.
To sum this up, Mandrake isn't bad against Imlerith bad, isn't a card that works in every deck.

3.2 Playing an at least 11 strength unit beforehand. If Imlerith isn'T boosted this will kill him immediantly, and even if he is boosted, it will leave him at 7 points such easy to remove. Let's have a look at all cards that can achieve this, when played without much setup as it is the beginning of the round:
a) Neutral: Ciri Dash, Iris Companions, Saenthisessi Blaze, Sarah, Geralt, Ciri:Nova, Shupe, Villen
b) NR: Tridam Infantry, Redanian Knight, Redanian Elite, Dandelion, Ronvid, Trollolo, Ves
c) ST: Elias, Xavier, Saskia, card handbuffed to 11 strength
d) MO: Goliat, Cyclops, Fiend, Old Speartip Asleep, Imperial Manticore,
e) SK: Tuirsearch Skirmisher, Dimmun Pirate, Vabjorn, An Craite Warrior, Jutta, Hjalmar, Olaf, Raging Berserk, Wild Boar of the Sea
f) NG: Tibor, Assire, Master of Disguise, Guardian, Vattier, Knight, Xarthisius
I tried to mark all those units that I think of are more than memes currently and won't be used before round 3. While this is quite a big number, it definetly doesn't include cards for every archetype. And not even all of them make sense to use at the start of the round.

3.3 Removing him after his first attack:
a) by a card that deals more than 9 damage: Assasin, Assasination, Caellach +Assasin, Elf Blade, Harald, Leo Bonhardt, Lugos, Manticore Venom, Spear, Parasite, Viper Witcher, Seltkirk, Champion
b) by a card that deals 9 damage: Alzurs Thunder, + Ithlinne, +Dethmold, +Keira, +Ida, +Vaedemakar,
c) a card that deals 7 or 8 damage: Cursed Sorceress, Ioverth, Morenn, Panther, Rock Barrage, Serrit, Vandergrifts Blade, Vernon Roche,
I probably forgot a few units, but if it needs at least 9 damage to kill him, there aren't that many reliable cards left. It is either a version of Alzurs, or it is Assasin or Viper Witcher. None of the other cards sees currently much play, but at least Leo and Lugos shouldn't be that bad to include. Nonetheless this leaves most other decks with the condition to run an Alzur if they want to remove him. And while every deck should definetly carry at least 1 removal, at the same time, if this removal has to be a form of Alzurs , we have again an autoinclude card ( and I know that this is nearly the case in the current state of the game), which is bad gamedesign. It should be possible, to use softer removal as engines, who need 2 or 3 turns to kill something, as these are also a form of removal.

If the enemy doesn't manage to directly remove Imlerith, the dealt damage can be just nullified by using Mandrake to heal and strengthen Imlerith, so only half killing him directly doesn't really work either.


3.4 Scorching him:
a) directly: he already dealt at least 5 damage, so if directly scorched, the Imlerith player will have gained value
b) after 1 turn, when Mandrake was used: assuming only dealt 5 damage on the first time and 7 on the second, and the 7 strength bronze that was removed had an unremoved effect of 4 points, then it is a Bronze and a Silver against a Silver and Gold and +8 points, which is still worth it for the Imlerith player.

Furthermore, there are currently 3 different versions of Scorch with Villen and Gigni of which only the normal scorch will work. So in a lot of cases the enemy won't even have the correct scorch.


3.5 Locking him:
Most locks in their current state are that week that they aren't worth it against him:
a) D-Shackles: Imlerith needs only to kill a 3 power unit to be worth it
b) Margarita: he needs to kill a 5 power unit to be worth
c) Morvudd: needs to kill a 8 power unit to be worth it
d) Auckes: needs to kill a 6 power unit (if played with Drakkars, he needs to kill an 8 power unit)
e) Donar an Hindar: needs to kill a 7 power unit
f) Ciaran: needs to kill an 8 power unit
g) Radovid: needs to kill a 1 power unit, 5 power unit if Radovid had another target, +7 if that other target was a Drakkar
h) Letho+Regis assuming there was an 11 power unit next to Imlerith: Imlerith needs to kill an 8 power unit
So, from all of the locks I would only consider, Donar, Morvudd and Ciaran as viable against Imlerith. And Donar is useless in most other situations, and Ciaran everywhere outside movement.


4. Comparing Immlerith to other long time effects:
a) Yen Con and Triss But: both of them need quite a couple of time to get there full value and can therefore be easily removed over 2 or 3 turns.
b) bronze engines: bronze engines like Vrihedd Dragoon or Reinforced Trebuchet need at least 3 turns to get average value for a Bronze, which gives the enemy a lot more time.


To sum this up, Imlerith can easily be removed, but not that easy anymore if he was already boosted by 2, which shouldn't be that hard to accomplish. In that case, you either need to have played an 11 strength unit beforehand, which is only possible for a couple of archetypes and even then not always that good. As a lock, there is mainyl Morvudd for Monsters. Or you need Alzur or an even stronger removal, which forces most decks to run at least 2 of these, or they might be stuck in a case when they can't get it. Therefore this card has a s a single card a huge impact on the whole deckbuilding in an unhealthy way, as it forces a quite limited number of cards to be included in each deck.
The game includes multiple mechanics and a lot of possibilities to tech against them. So, every player should decide on his own, against what he wants to tech and against what he doesn't want to. And of course not teching against something should leave the player in a disadvantage, but it should never just cause an autodefeat. And moreover, there should be always a couple of possibilities to tech against something, so the player can include the one best suited for his deck. I don't see either of these point given for Imlerith.



 
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I mean, I tech'd against it. Sure I had to alter the deck I've been playing ever since the start of Midwinter to do so but you will need to do that quite some times in Gwent. Whispess: Tribute and Mandrake works as it also means they can't renew him.

Jeydra's maths are completely wrong because he only takes into account the points, not how many cards the Imlerith player has in his deck to synergize. If you run a deck that has whispess: tribute, Imlerith: Sabbath, Royal Decree, Renew, Mandrake that's all golds and a silver working around one card. Removing or even worse banishing said card 1) makes renew useless or forces the player to use it this round 2) makes whispess tribute and mandrake subpar 3) makes royal decree subpar or wasted if the player already used it to summon Imlerith. Coincidentally I just played against such a deck and all I needed was Mandrake to just stop it in its tracks. if he uses Royal Decree to summon Imlerith he is 2 golds down right off the bat.

People are just overreacting. You just need to be capable to remove it on the first turn it appears. Granted it won't always be easy but there are a ton of options to do so. packing ONE removal (like Mandrake) but more ways to tutor it (Ge'els, Whispess: Tribute for monsters for example) can save your life against this deck, Nekkers, Alchemy, Greatswords, Hawker Smugglers, etc so it's not a bad option at all.
 
I just played my Ihuarraquax deck against Imlerith overcommitment deck. I start with the Knight... my opponent cannot do anything and forfeits. ;)
 
Maerd;n10591272 said:
Your math is off. It has a body of 5 and kills a unit of power 8 then it's 13 if he's killed immediately. 13 power for a gold is very low. Nobody's going to wait for an extra turn if they can kill it off. So, it's high risk, high reward card. And it's well-designed. In comparison, Miruna can land you 44 points if she charms CN and you had no answer.

Pffft. Lightweight. Try 180 by charming a heavily fed Arachas Queen. That's what Consume gets for being non-interactive! Gits.

As for my No. 1 Boi; YOU LEAVE HIM ALONE.

I'm sick of having to include Woodland Spirit in every single Monsters deck I make because he's the only good gold we have outside tech stuff (of which we admittedly have tons, thanks Crones trilogy).

And complaining because a gold is - quite - good when you dedicate your entire gold package around making him - quite - good is insanity.
 
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The card is fine. I've been treading water in the 500-1000 global pool and around there, there is NO way to have him as the backbone of your deck. He IS however, as others have said, very good as a supplement to a smart deck which usually forces the opponent's hand in one way or the other.
 
As many stated, stop playing greedy spam point decks and add some hard removal. Easy.

Since the nerf of Commanders horn, Schorch has found a place again on my decks. Just saying.

About monsters Golds, it was time to finally have an offensive gold not weather based.
 
ser2440;n10593592 said:
Jeydra's maths are completely wrong because he only takes into account the points, not how many cards the Imlerith player has in his deck to synergize. If you run a deck that has whispess: tribute, Imlerith: Sabbath, Royal Decree, Renew, Mandrake that's all golds and a silver working around one card. Removing or even worse banishing said card 1) makes renew useless or forces the player to use it this round 2) makes whispess tribute and mandrake subpar 3) makes royal decree subpar or wasted if the player already used it to summon Imlerith. Coincidentally I just played against such a deck and all I needed was Mandrake to just stop it in its tracks. if he uses Royal Decree to summon Imlerith he is 2 golds down right off the bat.

People are just overreacting. You just need to be capable to remove it on the first turn it appears. Granted it won't always be easy but there are a ton of options to do so. packing ONE removal (like Mandrake) but more ways to tutor it (Ge'els, Whispess: Tribute for monsters for example) can save your life against this deck, Nekkers, Alchemy, Greatswords, Hawker Smugglers, etc so it's not a bad option at all.

Renew is probably overdoing it. The other cards all have applications outside of supporting Imlerith: Sabbath. It's like the relationship between Thunderbolt Potion and Knight-elect. If you have both, great; if you don't it's still OK. The likely best Imlerith: Sabbath deck isn't one which is all-in on the card, but rather runs it as part of another deck, e.g. Dagon Deathwish subbing out Ge'els for Imlerith: Sabbath. That's a change of only one card.

Also if you kill something summoned with Royal Decree it doesn't mean you're up two golds. The opponent hadn't drawn the card Royal Decree tutored for, and without Royal Decree he might never have drawn it. The number of games in which you draw all four golds is outnumbered by the number where you don't.

And the argument against "remove it on the first turn" applies. If you trade card-for-card vs. Imlerith: Sabbath the turn it comes down, it's still generated ~8 points from the duel it's already fought. That's still pretty good, considering that the consequence for not being able to kill it the turn it comes down is "I win the game".
 
lol just had a guy try me. He had Hillock as his leader, his first move was Maerolorn into Nekker. I had my mandrake and smelled the trap, I mandraked it as I was armed to the teeth with removal and thus the trap was reversed. Sure enough there came good ole Sabbath who then got smacked. Round three he made another appearance and got smacked again lol. 8/10 for being creative but if you base your whole deck around him and see my name you may as well forfeit. xD

Watch out for the traps folks.
 
Gvynblade;n10599342 said:
Hands down best card ever released ,take down 5 nekkers in a row a real nekker killa ,loving it.

He seems pretty good against nekker consume, yeah. Ruins their first turn.
 
It needs a nerf asap, ore just alter the entire card. It's disgusting
Locks/mandrome become obligatory cause of this bullshit, the devs did a good job removing mandatory cards like weather clears, this is a step back. And even then you'll can not run into you're counters with bad luck and it's gg,
It's the single most opressing card in gwent history.
 
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