Imlerith: Sabbath

[iamthedave]

Exactly. Opponent plays a STR 21 nekker? I can't use Margarita on that, he might have Imlerith: Sabbath.

Opponent, places a rotfiend at the opposite row? Well I can't really lock it if I need to save 2 locks/ removals just in case the opponent has Sabbath and renew can I?

Opponent played an Archespore? Or a D'ao? I can't waste a removal or a lock unless I have 2 more in hand, he might have Imlerith: Sabbath and Renew.

That is the main problem with this card. If you counter it, sure, the opponent probably lost. If you don't , he definitely won. And you can't counter ANYTHING else out of fear that he has Imlerith: Sabbath . At least not if you have anything less than 3 locks/removals in hand, which is very rare in anything meta but Alchemy, a control heavy deck.

I swapped Muzzle for Seltkirk, included Margarita AND scorch in my henselt deck all because of that one card.

If you draw Imlerith: Sabbath AND Renew out of him in one turn, then passing the round is hardly a bad thing. You've drawn two golds and probably a mandrake or other boost, since Imlerith: S isn't much to write home about without them.

As to your final point: Shouldn't the game be encouraging the inclusion of those cards anyway?

Haven't we ALL (me included) been complaining about a lack of interactivity and too few cards that really require a response? Hasn't the board been a light with people complaining about engine irrelevance? I:S is LITERALLY the kind of card people have been whining they want back, and now he's here we have a 16 page thread about how he's broken.

These arguments are why these cards got nerfed into oblivion. Engine cards win games if left alone.

I think the anti-Imlerith brigade need to think long and hard about what they actually want from Gwent. Because a healthy Gwent is a lot more cards like Imlerith, not less. The alternative is simple, safe point-slamming, with no powerful interactions and few situations where a card gets out of control, like Imlerith can. If Imlerith gets out of hand in your game, your deck is to fault, not the card. I've lost to him and won with him. But most of the time I shut him down on the spot and go on with my game, or just happily pass the round after he's been renewed if I feel I can't do anything about him.

This hysteria confuses me deeply. Especially from people looking back to the good old days of Gwent when Spellatael used to dance on your face with borderline unanswerable double-scorching Villentretenmerth.

 

[Iuliandrei]

I think the anti-Imlerith brigade need to think long and hard about what they actually want from Gwent. Because a healthy Gwent is a lot more cards like Imlerith, not less.

Yeah let's make Gwent more like Rock, Paper, Scissors, where if you don't draw a specific card at a specific moment you instantly lose the game, the coinflip already a significant decider, let's make that the ultimate decider.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

Haven't we ALL (me included) been complaining about a lack of interactivity and too few cards that really require a response? Hasn't the board been a light with people complaining about engine irrelevance? I:S is LITERALLY the kind of card people have been whining they want back, and now he's here we have a 16 page thread about how he's broken.

Except that Imlerith just denies any engine or other setup, because these are all that low that he will even get more armour out of the battle.
So, we got one engine, but nearly all other engines are useless because of that.

 

[iamthedave]

Except that Imlerith just denies any engine or other setup, because these are all that low that he will even get more armour out of the battle.
So, we got one engine, but nearly all other engines are useless because of that.

Except that engine decks are beating him in the Gwentup report. Greatswords in particular, and Henselt, who isn't quite an engine, but does need to stick fairly weak units to do his thing.

So... ?

 

[George_V]

But he isn't. He's only that powerful if the opposing deck draws all the stuff it needs to buff him. And if you do counter him, all that stuff they used to buff him is wasted.

How does that change the fact that an unchecked Imlerith will win the game virtually by himself? Again, the issue isn't that Imlerith can't be countered. The issue is that's he's far too powerful whenever he isn't countered.

Being counterable is not enough for a card to be balanced. The power level of a card when not countered is also important. How would you feel about a 1-power unit that boosts itself to 1000 when entering? Would you consider that balanced merely because Scorch or resets could technically stop it?

It's also just not true that countering Imlerith means any buffs on him are wasted. He kills a unit for free every turn. Even if you kill him, he still took out the card you used to deal with him, the unit he killed the turn he entered play, and another unit for every turn he lived to get buffed.

 

[Khreygond]

If you draw Imlerith: Sabbath AND Renew out of him in one turn, then passing the round is hardly a bad thing. You've drawn two golds and probably a mandrake or other boost, since Imlerith: S isn't much to write home about without them.

As to your final point: Shouldn't the game be encouraging the inclusion of those cards anyway?

Haven't we ALL (me included) been complaining about a lack of interactivity and too few cards that really require a response? Hasn't the board been a light with people complaining about engine irrelevance? I:S is LITERALLY the kind of card people have been whining they want back, and now he's here we have a 16 page thread about how he's broken.

These arguments are why these cards got nerfed into oblivion. Engine cards win games if left alone.

I think the anti-Imlerith brigade need to think long and hard about what they actually want from Gwent. Because a healthy Gwent is a lot more cards like Imlerith, not less. The alternative is simple, safe point-slamming, with no powerful interactions and few situations where a card gets out of control, like Imlerith can. If Imlerith gets out of hand in your game, your deck is to fault, not the card. I've lost to him and won with him. But most of the time I shut him down on the spot and go on with my game, or just happily pass the round after he's been renewed if I feel I can't do anything about him.

This hysteria confuses me deeply. Especially from people looking back to the good old days of Gwent when Spellatael used to dance on your face with borderline unanswerable double-scorching Villentretenmerth.

Yeah. Last time I did that opponent played Adr. Rush. The time after that I could not pass, as it was the last round. I tried damaging it BUT OF COURSE the opponent had Mandrake. So bye bye game.

As to my final point, it should yes. But I added 1 gold and 2 silvers for the mere possibility that ONE card MIGHT be in my opponent's deck. That's the problem.

There is a crucial point to be made here. This is not an engine card. I've defended its power before. This is a "if you don't counter this RIGHT NOW, I win". Engines have to be played early to get max value, this can be dropped 2 cards before the last one and still get insane value. And renew just gives you a second chance to win the game with it because if your opponent doesn't counter it twice, bye bye. Engines synergize, and have strategy, they are not just ONE card that gets insane value on its own, especially if you can increase its base strength. For example:

• Mangonels are an engine because they need revealers to function. You play Alchemists which reveal cards and that triggers the Mangonels on your side
• Enforcers and Brigades are an engine because they need spies. The Spy engine plays emissaries which give you points by boosting your Impera Brigades and triggering your enforcers
• Siege supports are engines because they need machines, or a lot of units.
• Greatswords are engines if you play with Longships because they need to be consistently damaged to function

An Engine is not just any unit with an active ability. Vrihedd Dragoons are not engines unless you are playing Handbuff. Savage Bears are not engines unless you are playing Ulfheddin and Vabjorn and damaging synergy.
Wild Hunt Drakkars are also not engines. See the difference? An engine is a whole core of bronze cards, made up of at least 2 different types, that gains progressively more value over time because its cards with active abilities synergize with each other. It's not just one gold card with an active ability that can win you the game if not countered immediately.

I don't know what the anti-Imlerith brigade wants, but speaking for myself, I want new archetypes with cards that have active synergistic abilities with each other. Not golds that if you don't counter immediately, you lose right away. That's what a healthy Gwent is for me. Besides, I can think of a lot of possibilities for cards to be LIKE Imlerith and be very interesting to play with and against.

The only thing I miss from the Closed Beta is the interesting (but still unplayable sadly) cards like the Old Wardancer, Shieldmaiden, and Vrihedd Sappers. I wouldn't call it a hysteria though, I personally just feel...very oppressed playing against the mere possibility of this card. Like I said, I have to keep at least 2 locks/removals just because the opponent MAY run Imlerith: Sabbath and Renew. For the record, so far I haven't met an opponent that runs the one without the other.

 

[iamthedave]

How does that change the fact that an unchecked Imlerith will win the game virtually by himself? Again, the issue isn't that Imlerith can't be countered. The issue is that's he's far too powerful whenever he isn't countered.

Being counterable is not enough for a card to be balanced. The power level of a card when not countered is also important. How would you feel about a 1-power unit that boosts itself to 1000 when entering? Would you consider that balanced merely because Scorch or resets could technically stop it?

It's also just not true that countering Imlerith means any buffs on him are wasted. He kills a unit for free every turn. Even if you kill him, he still took out the card you used to deal with him, the unit he killed the turn he entered play, and another unit for every turn he lived to get buffed.

How is Imlerith 'winning the game virtually by himself' when MULTIPLE golds and silvers are being used to buff him?

That's like saying the old spell buff elves own games by themselves, ignoring the 15-odd spells played beforehand to make them big.

This isn't like Ithlinne:Tremors where ONE card, with no support, was giving 25+ point swings guaranteed nearly every time.

 

[Mathspy]

The amount of posts this card has gotten lately i think we can savely assume that next patch he will receive the doomed tag. Altough personally i think he should lose the armour regen and maybe even the healing.

And Adrenaline Rush to target only bronzes or silvers if they plan to print any more serious gold engines

 

[Khreygond]

And Adrenaline Rush to target only bronzes or silvers if they plan to print any more serious gold engines

I don't think this is an engine. Not every card with an active ability is an engine IMO.

But yeah, Adr. Rush should target only bronzes and silvers now.

 

[Mathspy]

How is Imlerith 'winning the game virtually by himself' when MULTIPLE golds and silvers are being used to buff him?

This isn't like Ithlinne:Tremors where ONE card, with no support, was giving 25+ point swings guaranteed nearly every time.

...
Wat.
Imlerith won the game because someone used Parasite on him
Ithlinne won the game because someone used Tremors with her

These are pretty identical if you ask me

 

[Pruny]

sabath can be locked, ithline cant
:eredinfacepalm:

 

[Mathspy]

I don't think this is an engine. Not every card with an active ability is an engine IMO.

But yeah, Adr. Rush should target only bronzes and silvers now.

There isn't much of a concrete example of what an engine card is but to me I simply define them as any and all cards that don't gain all their value as soon as they are played and will keep gaining value as turns go by
So yeah even Dragoon is an engine to me, hence why people tend to kill it if someone pulls him from an Elven Scout even if they don't actually synergy with the deck the person is playing

 

[Maerd]

Alright whiners, here's the meta report for you. https://gwentup.com/report/18/8 Imlerith: Sabbath has a whopping 48.5% WR at most.

 

[Khreygond]

Alright whiners, here's the meta report for you. https://gwentup.com/report/18/8 Imlerith: Sabbath has a whopping 48.5% WR at most.

48.7% in the highest rank. That's the WR at worst, not at best. Also, don't know about the rest, I am not even complaining that he is too powerful. Just that I can't enjoy any match against him.

 

[Ic3Purple]

I'm amazed seeing this discussion has reached 17 pages.

Even though I'm a monster player, I believe it is fair to say that this card should get at least the tag doomed. After seeing decks ENTIRELY built around this card with resurrects unlocks, resilience, thunderbolts and strength buffs over and over, I guess, the abusers of this card has pushed the limits of the lame play of it too far.

It doesn't matter what win rate an Imlerith deck has. We can't just rebuild every archetype to counter one single card of the meta. In particular when not 1, but 2-3-4- or more counters still aren't enough to deal with it. That imlerith isn't the only big deal of the moment it is a sure thing. In fact there are still spy matters out there, and some lame op archetypes.

However, I can't foresee the future outcomes of Imlerith even after adding the doomed tag on it, but for sure it will cool down the big deal.

 

[Maerd]

48.7% in the highest rank. That's the WR at worst, not at best.

And this is the only place where you need to watch WR to estimate card power. In lower ranks people just don't play well, can do some stupid mistakes. In low ranks most good player can have positive win rate even with fun decks.

 

[Maerd]

Even though I'm a monster player, I believe it is fair to say that this card should get at least the tag doomed. There are decks built around this whole card with resurrects, unlocks, resilience, and strength buffs over and over.

Why do you want prohibit people to make crappy decks? Against this type of deck, for instance, I have 100% win rate with any of my competitive decks.

 

[Ic3Purple]

It is curious that you omit the quote where I said, the abusers of this card ( and the following) has pushed beyond the limits. I don't believe you have 100% win rate against such decks, but rather I believe you are exactly one of those abusers.

If you wanted to keep enjoying your new toy, you should not have overplayed it.

 

[Khreygond]

And this is the only place where you need to watch WR to estimate card power. In lower ranks people just don't play well, can do some stupid mistakes. In low ranks most good player can have positive win rate even with fun decks.

And again, the problem is not its winrate, nor that it is too powerful or anything. Just how oppressive it is.

 

[iamthedave]

Yeah. Last time I did that opponent played Adr. Rush. The time after that I could not pass, as it was the last round. I tried damaging it BUT OF COURSE the opponent had Mandrake. So bye bye game.

As to my final point, it should yes. But I added 1 gold and 2 silvers for the mere possibility that ONE card MIGHT be in my opponent's deck. That's the problem.

There is a crucial point to be made here. This is not an engine card. I've defended its power before. This is a "if you don't counter this RIGHT NOW, I win". Engines have to be played early to get max value, this can be dropped 2 cards before the last one and still get insane value. And renew just gives you a second chance to win the game with it because if your opponent doesn't counter it twice, bye bye. Engines synergize, and have strategy, they are not just ONE card that gets insane value on its own, especially if you can increase its base strength. For example:

• Mangonels are an engine because they need revealers to function. You play Alchemists which reveal cards and that triggers the Mangonels on your side
• Enforcers and Brigades are an engine because they need spies. The Spy engine plays emissaries which give you points by boosting your Impera Brigades and triggering your enforcers
• Siege supports are engines because they need machines, or a lot of units.
• Greatswords are engines if you play with Longships because they need to be consistently damaged to function

An Engine is not just any unit with an active ability. Vrihedd Dragoons are not engines unless you are playing Handbuff. Savage Bears are not engines unless you are playing Ulfheddin and Vabjorn and damaging synergy.
Wild Hunt Drakkars are also not engines. See the difference? An engine is a whole core of bronze cards, made up of at least 2 different types, that gains progressively more value over time because its cards with active abilities synergize with each other. It's not just one gold card with an active ability that can win you the game if not countered immediately.

I don't know what the anti-Imlerith brigade wants, but speaking for myself, I want new archetypes with cards that have active synergistic abilities with each other. Not golds that if you don't counter immediately, you lose right away. That's what a healthy Gwent is for me. Besides, I can think of a lot of possibilities for cards to be LIKE Imlerith and be very interesting to play with and against.

The only thing I miss from the Closed Beta is the interesting (but still unplayable sadly) cards like the Old Wardancer, Shieldmaiden, and Vrihedd Sappers. I wouldn't call it a hysteria though, I personally just feel...very oppressed playing against the mere possibility of this card. Like I said, I have to keep at least 2 locks/removals just because the opponent MAY run Imlerith: Sabbath and Renew. For the record, so far I haven't met an opponent that runs the one without the other.

I have more sympathy with your position than others. It's fine to dislike a card. But the game shouldn't be balanced based on that. I hate, hate, HATE Ciri: Nova, but she's an alright card overall. She still shuts games down and wins them outright more times than not.

You may have added those cards just for Imlerith, but the fact they're in your deck is - in my opinion - a good thing. If Imlerith has forced them in there, hopefully other cards introduced before long will justify them remaining there. Because that is the only way we're getting away from point slam; the introduction of cards and mechanics that require shutting down.

I do not agree with your 'crucial point'. An unbuffed Imlerith is a 5 point duelling gold. He is ONLY able to get good/great value if other cards buff him. If you don't summon him through Royal Decree, he's dying to anything bigger than a 9. If you don't mandrake or parasite him, he's not every beating anything bigger than a 9 unless he gets lucky and builds up a fair bit of armour. A 13-14 point gold is not 'insane' value in anyone's estimation, not even yours. You can add on the value of whatever removal kills him if you wish, in which case he gets up to almost 20, again, lower than what you expect from most golds these days, and it's not direct value either.

I say, if a 5 point gold - unbuffed - is enough to win the game against your deck (quoting 'not just one gold card that can win the game if not countered immediately) then your deck is awful.