Weather is a Trash Mechanic

[KaynOfNosgoth]

I don't know what flawed weather design is either. There is no single way in which a design can be flawed. Do us the courtesy of explaining.

Weather spam is a secondary factor in the metagame and gold weathers are simply solid golds. I fully agree that rng stuff should never have been implemented, but it's not the reason I'm not playing clears.

You don't understand? Ok let me try this another way.Fog get's it's full value because it hits the highest units so it's always 2 points of damage.The only way fog can lose value is if all the units on the row are 1 points (and in that case,the point that would otherwise be lost,should go to the next unit).Frost doesn't have this luxury,if the enemy has a 1 point unit on the row,you lose value for no reason.Same goes for rain,if the enemy is left with only 1 unit,you lose value and that too should be modified that if there's only 1 unit remaining all the damage should go to it.I meant flawed as in not all of them are equal (fog being the best) and the player that uses weather is being screwed over.The reason for this? This amazing community that complained over forums for weather nerfs till it became almost useless.And now,the same community is telling me that "it's ok for you to lose value for no reason because it's strategy".No shit)

P.S. Maybe flawed weather design was poor exprimation on my part.Maybe flawed mechanic is more appropriate?

 

[Draconifors]

This thread seems to be heating up a little. Please, avoid turning this into a personal dispute; there's no need for hostility.

 

[NomanPeopled]

You don't understand? Ok let me try this another way.Fog get's it's full value because it hits the highest units so it's always 2 points of damage.

I got that. I don't get why this is bad design though. I could just as well regard it as yet another property of a card that needs to be taken into account when strategizing. It's not like I'm not "losing points for no reason" when punching small units with a Flail or lacerating a row that includes small units.
Frost ist still better at targeting smallish utiity units or elves awaiting mulligan buffs, or Iris, offering more versatility. There's few of them left, but decks that can choose their weather freely (unlike old Dagon Fog or WH, say) often opt for Frost for that reason.

How often are those points going to matter, anyway? I'm not even really opposed to the idea of weather damage carrying over, I just don't think the very slight buff is even worth making Frost/Rain wordier. It wouldn't make the design more elegant nor weather any more playable.

 

[zevashtyan]

love to wheater elfs/dwarves!

 

[TheShift]

It is 100 times better now...than in all of the last year and a half.

It can remain as is... forever,as far as I'm concerned

THIS AGAIN

anyway just to add another opinion.

Weather spam decks are crap to go against
I just play the best I can with what deck I'm using
row stack and hope for the best.

Luckily for us all it is no where near as spammed as it used to be because it has been balanced pretty well imo

And by chance I come across said match up... and loose
well it ain't the first time or the last time ill loose a match
there's always another match seconds away.

You can't win them all

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

How often are those points going to matter, anyway? I'm not even really opposed to the idea of weather damage carrying over, I just don't think the very slight buff is even worth making Frost/Rain wordier. It wouldn't make the design more elegant nor weather any more playable.

Yeah sure it won't be a game changer and it won't make decks that run weather top tier but at least it'll be easier to deal with swarm decks and the Riders won't lose value.Might not be a big change but i think it would be a change in the right direction.

 

[Rawls]

It definitely used to be way overpowered. Aeromancy last card was pretty much an auto win at one point. The way it is now is generally speaking fairly low tempo and can be countered with silver mages and clear skies. You can also row stack as a countermeasure if you don't have anything else, but then you have to beware lacerate being a 15-27 point bronze.

 

[kiramode]

I haven't played in several months, are the complaints on this topic still justified?

 

[liezldiezldee]

*remembers the match won today against Axeman deck that went first and played Ragnarok as first card*
*evilly passed*
This match was very fun in my opinion tbh so I will have to disagree...

you dont want to give axeman a fast win and it is better to spread your units a bit instead of stacking a lane. dont pass just because they play the 3 lane weather (they play two of them). their deck is only built for one good turn of points so you can get a very high win % vs them if you play 3 medium length rounds.

as long as you have a handful of removals (derran #1 target) the matchup is pretty easy/overall a bad deck compared to other skellige options

hit derran with mandrake and or muzzle and they will just leave the game lol. like a ton of other decks in the game they get wrecked by alchemy so it is pretty rare to see anyone running it

 

[liezldiezldee]

I haven't played in several months, are the complaints on this topic still justified?

nope. i think the only playable weather card in the game right now is dagon because he generates 14 points his first turn (8 from him + 4 from foglet + 2 from weather)

every other weather card in the game is so low tempo they almost never net enough points to justify it. there are plenty of decks playing 15+ point bronzes and it is really hard to hit value off two points a turn.

most of the time some low energy brouver player is just going to create a clear anyways

 

[StrykerxS77x]

More pissed about weather spam decks, they just arent fun to play against, even if you win

It's a lot of fun to shut down weather using multiple clears. Pretty funny.

 

[StrykerxS77x]

You don't understand? Ok let me try this another way.Fog get's it's full value because it hits the highest units so it's always 2 points of damage.The only way fog can lose value is if all the units on the row are 1 points (and in that case,the point that would otherwise be lost,should go to the next unit).Frost doesn't have this luxury,if the enemy has a 1 point unit on the row,you lose value for no reason.Same goes for rain,if the enemy is left with only 1 unit,you lose value and that too should be modified that if there's only 1 unit remaining all the damage should go to it.I meant flawed as in not all of them are equal (fog being the best) and the player that uses weather is being screwed over.The reason for this? This amazing community that complained over forums for weather nerfs till it became almost useless.And now,the same community is telling me that "it's ok for you to lose value for no reason because it's strategy".No shit)

P.S. Maybe flawed weather design was poor exprimation on my part.Maybe flawed mechanic is more appropriate?

Don't see your point. Weather was oppressive before and now it's a decent mechanic to add in to the right decks or to play at the right moment. The different kinds of weather don't need to be perfectly equal. Frost has been used in decks to get more kills and has synergy with wild hunt.

 

[Hellsmoke77]

nope. i think the only playable weather card in the game right now is dagon because he generates 14 points his first turn (8 from him + 4 from foglet + 2 from weather)

every other weather card in the game is so low tempo they almost never net enough points to justify it. there are plenty of decks playing 15+ point bronzes and it is really hard to hit value off two points a turn.

most of the time some low energy brouver player is just going to create a clear anyways

And Dagon needs a serious buff, a 14 point leader is sad when looking at some of the others. Also, running that fogglet is a mulligan disaster. It makes you want to play Dagon asap just to get it out.

 

[Mathspy]

you dont want to give axeman a fast win and it is better to spread your units a bit instead of stacking a lane. dont pass just because they play the 3 lane weather (they play two of them). their deck is only built for one good turn of points so you can get a very high win % vs them if you play 3 medium length rounds.

as long as you have a handful of removals (derran #1 target) the matchup is pretty easy/overall a bad deck compared to other skellige options

hit derran with mandrake and or muzzle and they will just leave the game lol. like a ton of other decks in the game they get wrecked by alchemy so it is pretty rare to see anyone running it

I had Ida in hand so I was prepared for Heatwave also I was playing Eithne Scroch so that's why I didn't care much even if we go 1 full 3rd round

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

The different kinds of weather don't need to be perfectly equal.

Then i guess we have nothing more to discuss on the matter if that's your point of view.

 

[NomanPeopled]

Same goes for your point of view of course.
I don't see why all bronze weather should have the same power output any more than alchemy cards should. In fact, I'd think it terribly dull.

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

It's called balance my friend.Since all weather are supposed to do the same nr of damage points,it makes sense that they should do exactly that.If you take into consideration the riders that increase that damage to 3 (or more depending on the nr of riders) it makes even less sense to lose that damage because of 1 point units placed on that row.The reality is that weather is next to useless this patch except for dagon because he brings out the foglet for deck thining and gold weather.Why do you think frost based decks are almost extinct? Because it can't keep up with the points that other decks can generate.

 

[4RM3D]

It's called balance my friend.Since all weather are supposed to do the same nr of damage points,it makes sense that they should do exactly that.If you take into consideration the riders that increase that damage to 3 (or more depending on the nr of riders) it makes even less sense to lose that damage because of 1 point units placed on that row.

Bloody Baron thanks you. It's not as one dimensional as you make it out to be. Even if Frost has a lower potential in terms of raw power, that doesn't mean it's always weaker. There are decent Frost synergies (e.g. Iris, Bloody Baron). The greatest strength of Fog (other than the occasional Scorch align) is pulling Foglet. The Foglet is what makes Fog usually superior. Frost needs something similar.

 

[NomanPeopled]

It's called balance my friend.

That is a definition of balance I have not yet encountered. Alchemy cards don't all have the same impact. Units don't. Items don't. But weather ought to?
Plus, like I said, decks that could choose freely between weathers typically opted for Frost despite the imbalance.

The reality is that weather is next to useless this patch except for dagon because he brings out the foglet for deck thining and gold weather.Why do you think frost based decks are almost extinct? Because it can't keep up with the points that other decks can generate.

Sure. I fully agree.

Like I said, I wouldn't actually mind the change you propose. I just don't see why perfect numerical symmetry is a design necessity, particularly since the wildly different support for Frost/Fog/Rain far outweighs the significance of the "lost" points.
I do miss the support for Fog and Rain has so little of it that the card might as well not exist. That's where I'd start - increase damage or buff existing support or create some where none exists.

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

4RM3D - I agree that iris is usually what saves the WH decks but how much value do you lose from the riders before that R3 where you can get the full value out of her? Not to mention most of the times even that is not enough to win you the game.

NomanPeopled - I see what you're saying but you can't compare let's say Lacerate with Manticore Venom for example and then say weather is in the same boat.Weather is designed to do the same amount of damage but it doesn't,that's what i'm trying to say it needs some adjustments.

I'm not against increasing the points of the hounds/sirens etc. either.Any buffs to weather are welcomed at the moment.

And my point is not that i want perfect numerical symmetry.My point is that i'd like weather to be buffed because it's "a trash mechanic" the title's words,not mine.

You say you're not against my suggestion but at the same time you don't seem to be 100% on board with it either.What exactly seems...out of place from what i said that you keep disagreeing with me?