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How the abundance of tutors in the game pushes away new players

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  • How the abundance of tutors in the game pushes away new players

    First of all, let me clarify that I hate the fact that every faction has an absolute plethora of tutors - they all do very similar things. Nilfgaard literally has two separate tutors for alchemy cards and items cards, even though many alchemy cards are items anyway. See Vicovaro Novice and Magne Division.

    Now, why am I saying that tutors push away new players?
    • Because bronze special cards are balanced around the tutors, and most of them are unplayable on their own - this makes them mostly unplayable in Arena, and it makes them trap cards for new players
    • Because it makes mulliganning much harder than it has to be (nowadays it's a lot about getting rid of cards you want to pull, rather than finding the optimal hand).
    • Because it restricts deckbuilding and forces you to study up on the myriad of tags cards have nowadays. This pushes away casuals a lot
    It's much easier for newer players to understand cards like Hattori, Ointment, or Al'zur's double-cross rather than a card like Reinforcement (play a bronze or silver soldier, something, something... from your deck). Why? Because when you look at a card, the first thing you see is its base strength. If cards synergized more around that rather than each card having 2-3 tags, the game would be much more accessible.
    Another way to solve this would be to add some sort of graphical representation for each tag, but there are so many at this point, that it probably wouldn't help anyway. Some you can see at first glance, like Dwarf/Elf, but many are interchangeable like soldier/officer/support...

    Don't get me wrong, for some cards this works, but I think that we should get rid of most tutors (at least the ones that tutor bronze specials) and replace some tag requirements with other ones.

    I hope I got my point across

    Just to prove my point a little more, here's a challenge for you: Try to paraphrase the description/effect of the following cards, including their tags.:
    Black Blood
    Bone Talisman
    Reinforcements
    Kiyan


  • #2
    The abundance of tutors cards makes the game more boring. I don't really think it impacts new players as much to specifically focus your thread on that. Instead, it could be about tutor cards in general, which, like I've mentioned, is a pretty boring mechanic. What's worse is that it limits the design space because every tutor'able card needs to be balanced around their respective tutor(s). This can go haywire real fast like with Ithlinne.

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm going to go in the complete opposite direction.... Tutors are ESSENTIAL to Gwnet. Why? simple numbers... no tutors means you only access half your deck per game. that makes games more random chance and less based on build theory and play sequence...

      Not that I don't agree that there are a lot of Categories and they aren't well managed (Special/Leader shouldn't be a category it should be Type just like Gold/Neutral/Etc) there are currently 4 divisions in categories... Race, Location, Job, and Association... unfortunately in no particular order, Specials actually have a different division that a bit simpler Source [ Item | Organic], Action [Spell | Alchemy | Tactic] and Effect [Boon | Hazard] but also no clear order..... highlighting or bolding Type/Category keywords (instead of just capitalizing them) is on my list of newbie friendly changes...

      Wrangling some of that is the exact reason for the link below my post.... not only can search and reference cards, but you can filter out things so you can see what is actually affected by a card.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hmm not sure whether i agree tutors are good or bad in general, what i am sure is each faction deserves a similar number of bronze tutors, for balance sake.

        NG has 2, SC has kinda 2 (counting Elven Sage), NR has 2 (the weather mage and the spell/item skeleton), SK has 2 (herbalist and the dude who fetches my bone talismans). MO has 2 (WH hounds and sirens).

        Feels pretty balanced, in that department. Yes, im aware some are more effective than others, and some incompatible, but overall, its not bad.

        Comment


        • #5
          So ignoring tutors as people are gonna focus on them anyway and I am not strong opinioned about them either ways

          Tags! You see now this makes me wonder wot! coming from a Yu Gi Oh/Hearthstone background, it bothered me so much Hearthstone was so bland without any sort of "tag" identity for cards besides their factions
          When I saw Gwent has introduced a tag system after returning to the game few weeks back, I was really content. Now this is not to mention everyone is screaming about the desire for more complexity (including OP in other posts) and the tags are complexity! They don't only work as a tutor-assisting mechanism, cards like Elven Blade exists that relates to Elf without having anything to do with tutoring
          Heck yes tags are not newbie friendly but absolutely no complex mechanic that satisfies you can be also noob friendly once you think about it. Tags to me are just one of those complex mechanics that I can see taking this game so far but taking some time for new players to get used to

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DRK3 View Post
            [...]
            NG has 2, SC has kinda 2 (counting Elven Sage), NR has 2 (the weather mage and the spell/item skeleton), SK has 2 (herbalist and the dude who fetches my bone talismans). MO has 2 (WH hounds and sirens).
            [...]
            there's actually a bunch more tutors if you include ones that summon units as well

            Comment


            • #7
              Inexperienced players lack general game sense. They don't notice when someone is missing from the map. They don't check what rune enemy team hero has. They can't last hit properly. They don't push lanes when they have advantage. They don't stack jungle camps. They don't use smokes for ganks or buy detection against invisible heroes.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Void_Singer View Post
                I'm going to go in the complete opposite direction.... Tutors are ESSENTIAL to Gwnet. Why? simple numbers... no tutors means you only access half your deck per game. that makes games more random chance and less based on build theory and play sequence...
                Many people would argue that Gwent needs less consistency. It's what card games are all about. Plus, as I mentioned, it really hurts the mulligan system as a strategy. I don't want to remove tutors in their entirety, but Skellige literally has the same tutor for bronze items as Nilfgaard, but with 1 less strength...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mathspy View Post
                  So ignoring tutors as people are gonna focus on them anyway and I am not strong opinioned about them either ways

                  Tags! You see now this makes me wonder wot! coming from a Yu Gi Oh/Hearthstone background, it bothered me so much Hearthstone was so bland without any sort of "tag" identity for cards besides their factions
                  When I saw Gwent has introduced a tag system after returning to the game few weeks back, I was really content. Now this is not to mention everyone is screaming about the desire for more complexity (including OP in other posts) and the tags are complexity! They don't only work as a tutor-assisting mechanism, cards like Elven Blade exists that relates to Elf without having anything to do with tutoring
                  Heck yes tags are not newbie friendly but absolutely no complex mechanic that satisfies you can be also noob friendly once you think about it. Tags to me are just one of those complex mechanics that I can see taking this game so far but taking some time for new players to get used to
                  Coming from a MTG backgroud myself, I can attest to the fact that it's completely different than in Gwent.
                  In MTG, the card attributes are all in the middle of the card, and it's very easy to locate and get used to the tags.

                  I haven't played Yugioh, but after a quick google search I can see that the tags aren't presented in the best way, but at least they are bolded and highlighted with the square brackets.

                  In Gwent, the tags seem to try to elude you in as much as possible... They aren't even bolded or colored, it's just small text below/above the card name...

                  As far as complexity goes - adding the same mechanics into every faction with slightly different tags isn't complex in my opinion, it's just lazy and boring. I always prefer indirect synergies. Take a look at Yennefer: Necromancer in comparison to the Caretaker. It's a poor excuse for an original card. Instead of having some cool ability, the card just copies one from another card and restricts it with a tag.
                  Cards that interact with tags done well are things like Monster's Nest. The card is independent, yet it can have many interactions in different archetypes.

                  ​​​​​​​

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well, I'm a brand-new player, and I like the tutors. I think. The only thing that bugs me is that sometimes things happen so fast, I'm not sure what tutored what. I *think* the best way to figure it out is to check the opponent's graveyard, yes? The tutorial said to use the play-by-play summary on the left side of the UI, but I find that more confusing than the graveyard, which seems to have the most recently discarded units on the left side of the graveyard screen.

                    But apart from that, I really like thinking about what can pull what out of my deck, to thin my deck. It also makes the mulligan decision more interesting. But then, I have about a week's experience with this game, so what do I know?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by DannyGuy View Post
                      In Gwent, the tags seem to try to elude you in as much as possible... They aren't even bolded or colored, it's just small text below/above the card name...
                      They seem clear enough to me to be honest, but this isn't something that it's too late to improve or so. So like the developers are still working on the tooltips I can see them fiddling around with the way tags are represented until they reach a clear enough way of displaying them

                      Originally posted by DannyGuy View Post
                      As far as complexity goes - adding the same mechanics into every faction with slightly different tags isn't complex in my opinion, it's just lazy and boring. I always prefer indirect synergies. Take a look at Yennefer: Necromancer in comparison to the Caretaker. It's a poor excuse for an original card. Instead of having some cool ability, the card just copies one from another card and restricts it with a tag.
                      Cards that interact with tags done well are things like Monster's Nest. The card is independent, yet it can have many interactions in different archetypes.
                      ​​​​​​​
                      Oh yes I am in no way saying the current cards that are utilizing the tags are perfect,
                      Unrelated:
                      Yen is poorly stated intentionally in my opinion, if anything they gave the factions with good golds mediocre ones at best (Scoia'teal and Nilfgard) and tried to better bad factions golds with better ones (Monsters) this didn't go exactly as intended for everyone though as they had to nerf Roche last second due to unhealthy design, and I see them buffing Cerys to work even after death from next patch to be honest this might have been a "coding" error (the coding team implemented her not in the way the designers imagined her)


                      ​​​​​​​But like you said! Some tag-related cards are really well designed, and I can see more of those coming with newer updates/expansions which is why I like the tag system itself

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DannyGuy View Post

                        Many people would argue that Gwent needs less consistency. It's what card games are all about. Plus, as I mentioned, it really hurts the mulligan system as a strategy. I don't want to remove tutors in their entirety, but Skellige literally has the same tutor for bronze items as Nilfgaard, but with 1 less strength...
                        The trick to beating the mulligan system with tutors is to include less tutors than cards they pull 1 tutor to 1 pull is going to leave you with a weak pull card, or a bricked tutor too often. I'd say somewhere between 1:2 and 2:3 is ideal for avoiding mulligan headaches.

                        Originally posted by RazTheGnome View Post
                        Well, I'm a brand-new player, and I like the tutors. I think. The only thing that bugs me is that sometimes things happen so fast, I'm not sure what tutored what. I *think* the best way to figure it out is to check the opponent's graveyard, yes?
                        If it's not on the board, and you didn't see it go back to their hand (or it's not in their hand revealed) then yes... there is one notable exception, Vrihead Vanguard (ST card) Buffs all Elves for +1 when swapped back into the ST players deck... it's literally impossible to read the text of that card until it's played.

                        The tutorial said to use the play-by-play summary on the left side of the UI, but I find that more confusing than the graveyard, which seems to have the most recently discarded units on the left side of the graveyard screen.
                        The play-by-play list is horribly broken, and doesn't track things like conditional summons, resurrects, spawns, etc that aren't played from hand..... as such, it's near useless.

                        additional note on the graveyard... you can also examine the cards within the graveyard (right click on PC) to get the card text of cards it spawns (especial useful for seeing how unfamiliar weather works since that isn't discoverable from the board)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by DannyGuy View Post

                          Many people would argue that Gwent needs less consistency. It's what card games are all about. Plus, as I mentioned, it really hurts the mulligan system as a strategy. I don't want to remove tutors in their entirety, but Skellige literally has the same tutor for bronze items as Nilfgaard, but with 1 less strength...
                          Given you say in the next post that you have a background in MTG, I find this post confusing. MTG is ALL about seeking consistency, and the best decks in MTG guarantee a win on a certain turn if not impeded, often as early as turn 4 for the traditional R/G beatdown decks and some combo decks.

                          GWENT, I think we all agree, is meant to be more of a thinking man's game, and much of the lament is the sense that it is no longer. You can't be a thinking man's game without consistency.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Please don't use the term "more accessible" when describing what Gwent should be about. We already have a lot of "accessible" things for new players, we don't need the game dumbed down any more.

                            If a new player can't be bothered to learn a few simple things, then maybe Gwent (or card games) aren't for them. I was a new player, Gwent being my first CCG. I had no problems picking up everything I needed to play properly.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think basically tutors are good for the game, but I honestly can't give a reason why. Maybe because it increases synergies and offers more decisions during the play.
                              Back when Stennis was changed to a tutor, it felt like he finally found the place he deserved.

                              Also, the list above lacks 3 kinds of tutors, except the one play from your deck/create a card. And that are basically: Reaver Hunter and Sîle, Roach. The copy a card under a certain condition, which basically tutors it too. Tutoring a card from your hand instead from the deck and the last is an inversed tutor. Instead of tutoring a card the card is tutored when a condition is met.

                              I believe all of these 3 kinds are interesting ones, because they harder limitations. The Reaver Hunter type needs a unit either already on the board/graveyard and the other two need the card you want to play in your hand, which is much more limited than in the deck, and brick it much more on the other hand.

                              I also like of the standard tutors 3 in particular. Dwarven Agitator, because he limits deck building, even if he is nonetheless quite strong. Stennis, because he is more than just a tutor. And Dijkstra because he isn't a normal tutor either.

                              At the other hand, Vicovaro Alchemist is just a really boring card, because it does hardly anything more than adding 2 points on cards, while offering deck thinning and a choice. If he was made like a golem, he would be a lot worse, as he could brick the hand (which is currently nearly impossible with 6 bronze alchemies included for NG Alchemy) and wouldn't offer a choice anymore.
                              It is the same for all those cards. If their tutored things are viable on their own, they are even stronger, else they aren't.
                              Just looking at Elven Mercenary and Reconnaissance, which is a much better version of the Reaver Hunters. It is a double deck thinning without a copy of the unit being already on the board and furthermore, it offers even a choice.

                              In the past, cards that offered unconditional choices all were worse than cards that didn't offer those, for example the weather mages. But most of the new tutors are completly the opposite. They even add points for offering a choice.


                              What can be done to solve this? Bronze tutors shouldn't offer unconditional choices anymore. It is ok for silvers and golds to offer consistency, but bronze cards should always have a condition for that, similar to Reaver Hunters.
                              Vicovaro Alchemist: Play a copy of a bronze alchemy in your graveyard from your deck. (They would be Slyzards or Sages for Alchemy, because they first have to research and alchemy once before they can recreate it)
                              And I would just convert most other bronze tutors to Sîle.

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