Mathspy;n10643191 said:
Really? Huh. I didn't know veterans were still a thing.
Bleach25;n10641641 said:
My deck doesn't use bearmasters or Olaf so no comment.
Longships are simply an engine card and can be countered with lots of different kinds of removal. So no I wouldn't say they are broken.
Viper witchers are like the best removal in the game in bronze cards. Giving them rez was so absurd.
Hellsmoke77;n10642861 said:
It depends, statistics are based on percentages collected through a portion of the player base (with no guarantee on their level....and please don't tell me about mmr which are noway near a guarantee on someone's skill unless it goes over a certain threshold) . As I said, it helps understanding the playing envirronement better but it's sometimes missleading.
For example a card appearing to be over played isn't necessarily strong and vice versa. There is a million reasons that can explain the popularity of a card over another (starting by the most obvious one, a lot of peoples are just ned decking without questionning the deck they find).
If a player has a solid experience on a game and know what he/she's doing, he/she's probably more reliable than any existing statistics and I trust good/top players more than any site that shows statistics about the different cards and their supposed reliability.
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GenLiu;n10643951 said:
So if a player "knows what their doing" and says they encounter more ST than NG we are to take their word over statistics? Sorry, can't follow you down that path. Yes a lot of ST is being played but NG is everywhere and clearly has the strongest deck in the game.
I'll stick to the statistics as they seem spot on to me.
Yeah, Veterans are quite strong right now and seen a lot in higher ranks. Alchemy are pretty ineffective against them because veteran decks are churning out 15+ str cards every turn and have up to 6 ways to rez them (most carry decoy). Vipers just can't keep up and their removal doesn't screw up the veteran game plan.
I think for now, with a high amount of removal being popular, engine decks are always going to struggle. Yes, the idea if you're something like greatswords is to spread out your power if you're concerned with assire and medics, and just be sure you don't have 2 essential cards in GY if you're expecting an assire. It's all about management of your units.
I think for now, with a high amount of removal being popular, engine decks are always going to struggle. Yes, the idea if you're something like greatswords is to spread out your power if you're concerned with assire and medics, and just be sure you don't have 2 essential cards in GY if you're expecting an assire. It's all about management of your units.
GenLiu;n10644331 said:
Some engines could definitely do with some more love considering how much they get removed, especially considering most of them have very interesting concepts and designs. It certainly seems that some of the engines having the most luck are deathwish monsters, where even if they're removed immediately, they're getting value. Even then, though, deathwish monsters vs alchemy is still pretty weak, I believe.
Only issue with something like quen, or extra protection for engines, is then your opponent suffers. Things like greatswords and axemen are just ridiculously strong and almost impossible to beat if you don't have at least some way of removing them or a way to mess up their game plan (lock, movement, graveyard sniping). It's so hard to balance, I don't envy the gwent team.
Bondonkadonk;n10644491 said:Some engines could definitely do with some more love considering how much they get removed, especially considering most of them have very interesting concepts and designs. It certainly seems that some of the engines having the most luck are deathwish monsters, where even if they're removed immediately, they're getting value. Even then, though, deathwish monsters vs alchemy is still pretty weak, I believe.
Only issue with something like quen, or extra protection for engines, is then your opponent suffers. Things like greatswords and axemen are just ridiculously strong and almost impossible to beat if you don't have at least some way of removing them or a way to mess up their game plan (lock, movement, graveyard sniping). It's so hard to balance, I don't envy the gwent team.
It's true but I think they can find a middle ground with the Quen effect.
The problem of the old one was that it was hitting all copies of a bronze so if you cast it on a Dragoon that was a pain in the butt because any single one of them were protected.
I think they could make a gold "Gerald Quen" with a decent body and the ability to cast a shield on one bronze or silver unit in your hand. This way I think it would be much more balanced but they certainly need to do some testing. Balancing a card game is definitely a challenge, even more than balancing a fighting game for example (it's probably one of the most difficult game type to balance in fact).
NG alchemy is an over-powered deck currently. I climbed to top 1000 with NG alchemy last season and with Triss : Telekinesis, NG alchemy is stronger then ever. This is because like every other NG deck, alchemy has the potential to thin down to 2-3 cards every single game - which means you have access to all 4 golds in like 90% matches. Viper witchers are consistent 15 point bronzes, novices are usually worth 14-17 points! (17 if you rez. a VW). Even the broover mulligan deck needs at least 4-5 turns of setup to get that much value from their bronzes whereas alchemy can get that value on turn 1. And on top of all this - they have access to the best bronze in the entire game - OINTMENT. This card is basically superior then Freya which comes from SK which is supposed to be a "resurrection" faction. Talk about being "OP"!
That's not all, alchemy creates a meta where any deck that follows a unique, creative strategy or anything other than "point spam" is inherently worse and non-competitive. Even though alchemy is my best deck, I think it should receive a nerf, but knowing CDPR, they either won't nerf it or would nerf it so badly so as to make it completely noncompetitive (like they did to spies and broover dorfs). The best way to nerf alchemy in my opinion is to cap VW's damage to like 10 and reduce base strength to like 4 and then also chenge ointment so that anything it resses is set to like 1-2 strength. This is not an over-nerf and probably needed... Making them non-rezzable would kill alchemy.
Having a lot of experience with alchemy, I can say that slave driver is not the problem (its a lazy and bad card this I agree). They are shit against so many decks and brick often now that they aren't guaranteed to show 3 unique choices. Even when they hit something like freya into a bearmaster, thats less points than a VW or a novice into a VW. So you see what I mean...
That's not all, alchemy creates a meta where any deck that follows a unique, creative strategy or anything other than "point spam" is inherently worse and non-competitive. Even though alchemy is my best deck, I think it should receive a nerf, but knowing CDPR, they either won't nerf it or would nerf it so badly so as to make it completely noncompetitive (like they did to spies and broover dorfs). The best way to nerf alchemy in my opinion is to cap VW's damage to like 10 and reduce base strength to like 4 and then also chenge ointment so that anything it resses is set to like 1-2 strength. This is not an over-nerf and probably needed... Making them non-rezzable would kill alchemy.
Having a lot of experience with alchemy, I can say that slave driver is not the problem (its a lazy and bad card this I agree). They are shit against so many decks and brick often now that they aren't guaranteed to show 3 unique choices. Even when they hit something like freya into a bearmaster, thats less points than a VW or a novice into a VW. So you see what I mean...
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Mathspy;n10643191 said:
Yeah, my bad. I didn't really bother to check the individual cards. Need to be more careful next time. Thanks for pointing it out.
Bondonkadonk;n10644281 said:
I would say this is 50-50 matchup and very coinflip dependent. Its true that vipers can't keep up with the point generation, once you get the res chain going alchemy can't do much about it. However, a good Assire can basically brick the priestesses. Then you just target the beads with viper witchers. Also the veterans take a few turns to setup in round 1 so alchemy starts off with a much more tempo than them.
please put down the glass pipe...AVK1995;n10644851 said:
Ointment is in no way superior to Freya even if you just want to compare their possible targets. Freya has no cap, more useful targets, including targets that self strengthen or self boost. of it's 17 valid targets, only 1 (raiders) would net you less than 9pts on board guaranteed. only 3 of the remaining 16 are 9 pts minimum, the rest are higher and depend on how you've built your deck, plus even if Sigfrida can't target one of those she can resurrect Freya, for a 4th go. and to top it off, Freya is NEVER a dead card. and that's before you get into bone charm
Void_Singer;n10647771 said:
My point was that all SK resurrect cards are now heavily restricted in their targets - Freya only gets a soldier, Bone charm gets only beast I think. Sigdrifa and Restore are obviously better, but they are silver cards so we don't consider them for this comparison. Ointment on the other hand can resurrect any bronze that's up to 5 power. Freya resurrecting a 4 strength bear-master is a 16 point play, whereas novice resurrecting a VW is a 17 point play and is not vulnerable to scorch AND has removal capability. Hope you see what I mean.
Viper witches **** engine cards of every deck. It's one reason I don't play much gwent right now because I'm fed up with it.
At the very least, Ointment has to be changed - sure the ability to one shot a few engines is acceptable as a counter strategy - but Ointment makes this stupid when they can res these ****ers to wipe out every engine you have, even if you try and make more with Operator/SC/Muzzle...
Otherwise I won't be playing much Gwent until CDPR return Quen to the game - at which point I'll be building entire decks around Quen.
Actually on that note I don't care about Ointment - let them keep it, because I will just sit tight and wait for Quen. >
At the very least, Ointment has to be changed - sure the ability to one shot a few engines is acceptable as a counter strategy - but Ointment makes this stupid when they can res these ****ers to wipe out every engine you have, even if you try and make more with Operator/SC/Muzzle...
Otherwise I won't be playing much Gwent until CDPR return Quen to the game - at which point I'll be building entire decks around Quen.
Actually on that note I don't care about Ointment - let them keep it, because I will just sit tight and wait for Quen. >
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meanwhile Freya can pop up 20+ Greatswords without chaining... guess what, both examples are down to build and play conditions, not to a single unit...AVK1995;n10647991 said:
Void_Singer;n10648741 said:
How exactly does a greatsword get to 20 when A) Viper witchers wipe all of them and B) NG uses graveyard hate to wreck what decent cards you might have in there?
StrykerxS77x;n10649091 said:
With the decline in spies, Vicovaro Medic is also used less. So, the only thing NG can do is use Assire, which can be semi-countered by using Crach/Recon/ADC/etc, if the opponent even has the chance to use Assire.
As for Viper Witchers, there are only 3. That's not always enough to kill all threats (Longships and Greatswords), because SK can just keep ressing both, where needed.
Voyagers;n10647371 said:
I don't fully agree with that. Assire vs Veterans is, for the most part, a mild inconvenience. The veteran decks I know of (ones i've played and ones i've been against in ranked/seen streamers play) all carry 3x beastmasters and 3x hunters. The hunters only get 1 point less than the beastmasters, so vet decks tend to have every single res target a min of 14, although usually sitting at 15-16, plus the possible 22 points from a beastmaster (either from the restore+veterans or from mandrake). So yeah, even if Assire puts 2 units back into hand, most decks will still 4 other targets to res with freya, and sig can also res veterans if it really gets desperate, or even a spearmaiden that can pull from deck if needed. Veteran decks fair very well vs alchemy because of their tempo and big units, I personally believe thats why so many people have been playing them on the ladder this season just to "counter" the NG masses.
I agree that Assire can mess with engine decks, especially greatswords, but again an SK player should plan for that, same as you except and counter any other card. If they except an assire, then they need to be sure to get things out of their GY before it happens, plus make sure not to pile ALL their power onto one greatsword. I also agree with 4RM3D that most alchemy decks won't be carry vic medics so they're rarely a threat, and if they do, it won't be more than one as they're usually low value vs most other decks and easily bricked compared to other NG cards. Spies carry Vic medics but they're basically dead this meta, and the rare times you see them, they're usually more focused on using medics to re-use the emissaries for their own engines.
I think people just need to accept that having a direct counter to your decks isn't necessarily a bad thing. You're just going to find that no matter what deck you make/run, it's going to have some other decks out there that counter it or are at least strong against it. Some decks I've run that don't carry much removal (such as the Temerian swarm) can get absolutely wrecked by decks like SK GS because they have no way to deal with the engines, or the huge r3 res. I don't see that as a reason to complain about the power of GS, I just accept my deck isn't equipped to deal with that type of opponent and I either make changes to be more versatile, or just cut my losses and accept any time I'm against GS I'm probably gonna lose.