Combo Cahir+Roach+Calveit(Mandrake)+(some other cards) in one turn R3

[W12]

Combo Cahir+Roach+Calveit(Mandrake)+(some other cards) in one turn R3

Does anybody else think that it is too consistent and strong combo in already good deck? My reasoning below.

Non interactivity
You can deny it only by mandraking Calveit if:
1) Calveit do not Mandraked on turn he played
2) Mandrake fits in your deck
3) You draw mandrake or tutor card
If you just kill him(and there is litte to no competitive 5pt removal) then mandrake will just go to roach

Power level
1+ 4 +11 + some other card from 3 of a choice. And weakest possible scenario is thier common bronze for 10-14pts ~26-30. So minimal output is better than Ciri Nova and Shupe Warrior while not having their cons. Maximum that I have seen was about 45 (Vilgefortz/some + bronze cards chain).

Drawbacks
I fail to see them. Multiple bodies with different values on different rows. Early commitment to low tempo Assire and Mandrake? No problem with crazy tempo SD, WV and Novice. Besides, Assire often pulled by Joachim, while Vesemir is followed by Roach.

(sorry for bad english)

 

[soph912]

I don't think it is too strong. The winrate of Calveit + Cahir is slightly above 50%.

Much more annoying is NG handbuffing with Emhyr.
Emhyr should not be able to play special cards, only units, to prevent this uninteractive nonsense.

Why did they make a bunch of spy cards if the most popular gold cards for Emhyr are now Vesemir, Leo Bonhart and Royal Decree and bronze cards Magne Division, Wyvern Scale Shield, Nilfgaardian Knight and Spotter??

 

[AVK1995]

This is not too strong - just think of how many golds and silvers are used up in pulling this off. Mandraking your calviet is such a low tempo play that it usually can't be pulled off on blue coin without a huge risk of going 2 cards down. If they do this on red coin, you can take advantage of the low tempo play to push the round and force out the cahir in round 2. On top of this there is always the risk of your calviet being mandraked, in which case your most powerful gold is now dead.

In fact, this combo is so bad right now due to high prevalence of mandrake in every deck, that I removed cahir from my alchemy list and put vilgefortz and it's been doing very well at around 4k.

 

[partci]

I don't think it is too strong...

This is not too strong...

Yeah, it is not. Until it hits you.

 

[ZenaRose]

Yes 26-30 points in single card is not too strong, of course its not.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

26-30 when it needed setup in an earlier round is strong but might not be too strong. Temerian Infantry can reach the same power and is only bronze. And as said above, using Mandrake to set Calveit up, is extremly low tempo and can therefore result in going one card down.

Also, if you use Renew, Mandrake and any other gold which can be played in nearly every situation you get nearly the same result, which I haven't seen once as a combo.
The problems I see with this combination is not the combination itself, but some of the cards involved.
Leaders are usually stronger than normal golds. This would Cahir the strongest gold as he can revive them and even offers one power. The reason why this isn't happening is because Nilfgaards leaders are all not that strong powerwise.

Moreover, did anyone notice that Mandrake is included in nearly all complaints about annyoing combinations? Nilfgaard handbuff, Ocvist handbuff, Imlerith and Calveit.
Maybe it is time to think about nerfing Mandrake.

 

[Beernchips]

Yeah and it so easy to set up, you "just" need cahir (gold) in hand, roach (silver) in deck, calveit (leader) played in a previous round and stayed long enough to be mandraked (silver) .
So easier to put in place that (for example, but a lot of other combos can be found) 19 pts bears with restore (1 silver card + 1 bear master in graveyard).

 

[Void_Singer]

requires Leader + 1-2x gold + 2x silver to set up.... it's rather weak for a gold combo actually because of early sacrifices.

I don't think it is too strong. The winrate of Calveit + Cahir is slightly above 50%.

Much more annoying is NG handbuffing with Emhyr.
Emhyr should not be able to play special cards, only units, to prevent this uninteractive nonsense.

Why did they make a bunch of spy cards if the most popular gold cards for Emhyr are now Vesemir, Leo Bonhart and Royal Decree and bronze cards Magne Division, Wyvern Scale Shield, Nilfgaardian Knight and Spotter??

I find it amusing that you'd take time out to complain about a deck that actually has a lower winrate than the one that uses the combo in the OP the most

 

[Hellsmoke77]

I don't think it is too strong. The winrate of Calveit + Cahir is slightly above 50%.

Much more annoying is NG handbuffing with Emhyr.
Emhyr should not be able to play special cards, only units, to prevent this uninteractive nonsense.

Why did they make a bunch of spy cards if the most popular gold cards for Emhyr are now Vesemir, Leo Bonhart and Royal Decree and bronze cards Magne Division, Wyvern Scale Shield, Nilfgaardian Knight and Spotter??

I agree 100%, this needs to be nerfed. It isn't used that much and the small group of vocal people using it are very adamant about their little exploit. Ireally hope CDPR notices it and stops it.

 

[Void_Singer]

in both of your honor I'm going to play it for all my ranked games today, even if Alchemy and Reveal both would get me more wins = D

 

[RakiaTime]

yes, it is too overpowered......if you dont banish Jan the moment he is first played, which you should do, personally i dont even waste my time playing against that deck without Vandergrift's blade in my hand

 

[Alexandr.Gabriel]

Someone just used mandrake at rank 17 on my aspirant ) lol. Guess he was beginner (he was playing calveit alchemy)

 

[partci]

BTW, the last time when a Silver Card became so prevalent was when everybody and their mother used MHailstorm in every single deck. It got nerfed by forbidding it to hit Golds and Leaders. And this is the only nerf I can see done to Manticore.

 

[NomanPeopled]

I agree 100%, this needs to be nerfed. It isn't used that much and the small group of vocal people using it are very adamant about their little exploit. Ireally hope CDPR notices it and stops it.

It certainly is the most overpowered deck with a 50% win rate out there. (With the negligible exception of all the other decks with a 50% win rate.)



I'd be fine with a nerf to the Calveit combo, but I don't think it needs one. The setup is quite demanding; its main virtue is that it fits Vipers quite seamlessly - although I do keep seeing a lot of Viper decks without Assire.
If Vipers needs a nerf, I'd start with the bronze core, not the combo; there's no reason to deny it to all players just because it's strong in one deck.

 

[Pruny]

I dont like that cahir is stronger than leader. He was weaker before. Make him resurect 1point leader.
(with mandrake that would be 7)

 

[Hellsmoke77]

in both of your honor I'm going to play it for all my ranked games today, even if Alchemy and Reveal both would get me more wins = D

That's fine, there are other methods to dealing with this issue.

 

[Esmer]

Well, y'all know that alchemy has a strong finisher. So instead of complaining, you should try playing around it. This is usually simple since you can win round 1 against alchemy and then have a long round 3 (or force Cahir out in round 2).

 

[friketje]

The combo is ok, it includes a 6 point mandrake play and a 11 point silver to pull it off, and cahir will be a dead a lot cause everyone plays mandrake.

Power finishers are the new norm i guess. I played a 29 points triss tele today (tris, 22 point beastmaster and a priestess), that's something I consider broken.

 

[Void_Singer]

That's fine, there are other methods to dealing with this issue.

True, there's a reason it's not popular high on the ladder. one good kill card can brick it... two and it's almost guaranteed

 

[NomanPeopled]

Okay, so since the opening post is well-structured and far from polemic, I figure it deserves the same treatment.

Non interactivity
You can deny it only by mandraking Calveit if:
1) Calveit do not Mandraked on turn he played
2) Mandrake fits in your deck
3) You draw mandrake or tutor card
If you just kill him(and there is litte to no competitive 5pt removal) then mandrake will just go to roach

I'm not sure non-interactivity is the right word here. I'd rather call it resilience.
In the face of a combo I can't do a lot about, I'd say my first go-to would be considering outpacing or outplaying them (maybe switching decks as well). I'd consider teching in a card or two if I can, but that wouldn't necessarily mean a disruptive card - it might also mean (a) card(s) that makes my deck more robust r3, or better able to bleed Vipers r2, or some such.
Denying a synergy is not the only way to beat it.

Power level
1+ 4 +11 + some other card from 3 of a choice. And weakest possible scenario is thier common bronze for 10-14pts ~26-30. So minimal output is better than Ciri Nova and Shupe Warrior while not having their cons. Maximum that I have seen was about 45 (Vilgefortz/some + bronze cards chain).

That does require some setup though, so it does have downsides that Ciri and Shupe do not. No doubt the conditions are less harsh, but the Calveit combo as described requires three silvers and a gold at the very least. It's certainly one of the better plays in the game, but it's not high above other possible plays.
This is why I stated I'd rather see a nerf to the Viper core than the combo. It's currently the only deck that can fit in those golds and silvers required without diluting its game plan. It comes at almost no cost only because the deck would be playing most of the constitutive parts anyway, and even then some sequencing is required that may or may not be opportune at any given moment.

Drawbacks
I fail to see them. Multiple bodies with different values on different rows. Early commitment to low tempo Assire and Mandrake? No problem with crazy tempo SD, WV and Novice. Besides, Assire often pulled by Joachim, while Vesemir is followed by Roach.

That's a limitation right there: the combo requires a high tempo deck in order to mitigate its low tempo setup. This does create an opening that decks with high tempo of their own but less demanding setup can exploit. The combo will only be playable if its shell provides the tempo necessary. And that's not simply a function of what the deck can do but how it compares to other tempo decks.

(sorry for bad english)

Not at all, happy to have you

May I ask, what approaches have you tried against the combo apart from Mandrake? Do your experiences with the combo come from playing against it with one deck, or several?