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Is Wardancer A Problem?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ser2440 View Post


    Check the latest meta report. Brouver is the most popular leader at the highest tier (staggering 27% popularity. Henselt has 9.3%, Crach has about 14% and the rest all have less than that) And also has the highest winrate (54.4%. Even Henselt has 53.4%) which means that ST does have the highest winrate and the top ranked players ARE playing ST.

    I agree it's not an auto win and I also agree that it is problematic completely (not even mainly) due to the barclay into Cleaver combo. In general, coinflip abuse is a serious issue and that's not just with Brouver's deck, but with Henselt as well.
    Yes a 27% popularity which is the reason for it having a 53.4% winrate. This does not mean that the top ten players are using the deck and in most cases they are not. They are playing alchemy or greatswords which both beat this deck.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ser2440 View Post
      Check the latest meta report.
      Actually I wouldn't base too much conclusions on last meta report, probably not even the next one. It's still early season, lot of players didn't even start climbing. On 3300 MMR (highest tier border in the report) you can still climb with meme. Hell, I was in top4000 with a non-meta deck just yesterday, and I'm not a very good or active player.
      So I think earlier meta reports are more indicative.

      Originally posted by Hellsmoke77 View Post
      Yes a 27% popularity which is the reason for it having a 53.4% winrate. This does not mean that the top ten players are using the deck and in most cases they are not. They are playing alchemy or greatswords which both beat this deck.
      Well sorry but numbers tell otherwise. The rock-paper-scissor goes like this: Brouver beats Crach, Crach beats Henselt, Henselt beats Brouver. And everybody beats alchemy except Crach. (Just check earlier meta reports)

      Also I don't see your reasoning on the connection between popularity and win rate. More players playing it doesn't increase its win rate. If anything I'd expect better popularity to decrease its win rate potential as it indicates that a lot of players including ones with lower skill and less experience with the deck are running it. I think it's rather the other way around: better win rate baits more players to play the deck, so popularity increases.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Vespuche View Post
        So I just read the roadmap. Noticed in the entire thing only a single card was mentioned. That card is Wardancer.

        I play ST so I am a bit biased. I would like to see this card stay in the game. It is strong, but is it a problem? What do you guys think?
        Yes it is a problem as it heavily influences card advantage.

        Comment


        • #19
          Brouver was always one of the most popular decks this patch, and had one of the highest win rates. Popularity should have nothing to do with win rates. But that's not the point. We're discussing Wardancer, not Brouver.

          There're two problems with Wardancer. The first is that if it's mulliganed in round one + on the blue coin you can't drypass. This has severe consequences on CA. Beating any deck on the blue coin with a mulliganed Wardancer - or god forbid multiple mulliganed Wardancers - is very difficult.

          The other problem with Wardancer is that you don't know if the opponent has it. If they have it then they have carryover, making losing round 1 more attractive; however if they don't, winning round 1 is preferable. Some decks might not care (especially those that were going to bleed round 2 anyway) but others will find this very problematic

          I think if Wardancer did something like "when this unit is mulliganed, at the end of your next turn, play it on a random row" then there'd be no problem.

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          • #20
            Definitely a problem, especially in current game state. Bronze cards should not affect CA.

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            • #21
              In my opinion, the unfairness of wardancer as carry over is simply the fact that playing it doesn't require to play a card. While all other carry overs int eh other factions are all cards played, not mulligan to play it. That's what makes this card too LAME and OP.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Jeydra View Post
                Brouver was always one of the most popular decks this patch, and had one of the highest win rates. Popularity should have nothing to do with win rates. But that's not the point. We're discussing Wardancer, not Brouver.

                There're two problems with Wardancer. The first is that if it's mulliganed in round one + on the blue coin you can't drypass. This has severe consequences on CA. Beating any deck on the blue coin with a mulliganed Wardancer - or god forbid multiple mulliganed Wardancers - is very difficult.

                The other problem with Wardancer is that you don't know if the opponent has it. If they have it then they have carryover, making losing round 1 more attractive; however if they don't, winning round 1 is preferable. Some decks might not care (especially those that were going to bleed round 2 anyway) but others will find this very problematic

                I think if Wardancer did something like "when this unit is mulliganed, at the end of your next turn, play it on a random row" then there'd be no problem.
                I would say the fact that you cannot drypass ties very much into Brouver's absurd initial tempo. Wardancer has been like that for ages, well before Midwinter, and it was not problematic because ST did not have a way to generate that amount of points that fast. Now, with Cleaver working as he does now, you've got only one card to play before your opponent tutors or plays the spy, and if that single card on an empty board is not worth at least 17 points, you are screwed royally. Even if they don't have access to Barclay Els, you can't know that, and you can't risk passing and letting them take the round on equal cards. And even if they don't use that whole combo, there will only be a very small window for you to take the pass as when they reach 5 elves, Aelirenn hits the board, making Vrihedd Officers into Vanguards worth at least 17 points.

                Brouver will essentially have a massive advantage on the red coin. On the blue coin though, he is very much beatable as long as you can play your own spy.

                Think about how many decks can reliably put 17 points with a single card on an empty board. Henselt can't, unless you can tutor Ronvid with Natalis, which is literally the only play that can do this proactively at that early stage in the game. Seltkirk needs a target, so does Vernon Roche, Leo Bonhart, Rainfarn into De Wett that early is BAD, Vilgefortz needs a target, Villentretenmerth needs 3 turns. And Ciri: Nova, you are at your opponent's Schirru's mercy. Even leaders, Henselt needs a target, Harald does too, Calveit into Slave driver needs to pull you a unit worth 11 points.

                So, in my opinion,, Wardancer was not a problem, it became a problem after midwinter, when CA started to matter more than anything, and it became far worse when Cleaver was changed.
                Last edited by ser2440; 14-04-18, 19:24.

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                • #23
                  Wardancer is fine, has been fine for a year. High risk/reward card. Could thin your deck and prevent opponent from dry-passing (literally, that's ALL it does), but could also essentially lose you CA when it's a dead 3-point card. The problem is clearly in the coinflip abuse T1-26 decks ONLY. Give Cleaver back his lock and the problem goes away. But no, wardancer is getting "fixed," of course, a.k.a. no one is ever going to play it again.
                  I might not be a good person, but at least I don't play Nilfgaard

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Barracuda88 View Post
                    Wardancer is fine, has been fine for a year. High risk/reward card. Could thin your deck and prevent opponent from dry-passing (literally, that's ALL it does), but could also essentially lose you CA when it's a dead 3-point card. The problem is clearly in the coinflip abuse T1-26 decks ONLY. Give Cleaver back his lock and the problem goes away. But no, wardancer is getting "fixed," of course, a.k.a. no one is ever going to play it again.
                    So, assuring a CA advantage is literally all it does? Isn't it a bit too much for a bronze?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ser2440 View Post

                      I would say the fact that you cannot drypass ties very much into Brouver's absurd initial tempo. Wardancer has been like that for ages, well before Midwinter, and it was not problematic because ST did not have a way to generate that amount of points that fast. Now, with Cleaver working as he does now, you've got only one card to play before your opponent tutors or plays the spy, and if that single card on an empty board is not worth at least 17 points, you are screwed royally. Even if they don't have access to Barclay Els, you can't know that, and you can't risk passing and letting them take the round on equal cards. And even if they don't use that whole combo, there will only be a very small window for you to take the pass as when they reach 5 elves, Aelirenn hits the board, making Vrihedd Officers into Vanguards worth at least 17 points.

                      Brouver will essentially have a massive advantage on the red coin. On the blue coin though, he is very much beatable as long as you can play your own spy.

                      Think about how many decks can reliably put 17 points with a single card on an empty board. Henselt can't, unless you can tutor Ronvid with Natalis, which is literally the only play that can do this proactively at that early stage in the game. Seltkirk needs a target, so does Vernon Roche, Leo Bonhart, Rainfarn into De Wett that early is BAD, Vilgefortz needs a target, Villentretenmerth needs 3 turns. And Ciri: Nova, you are at your opponent's Schirru's mercy. Even leaders, Henselt needs a target, Harald does too, Calveit into Slave driver needs to pull you a unit worth 11 points.

                      So, in my opinion,, Wardancer was not a problem, it became a problem after midwinter, when CA started to matter more than anything, and it became far worse when Cleaver was changed.
                      Heavy initial tempo exacerbates the issue but isn't the root cause. If you remember the spelltael decks from several months ago, some of them would drypass round 1 because they absolutely could not afford to risk going down on cards. Some other decks, such as Axemen, do that in the current patch as well. Note that these decks that drypass round 1 have a problem with early tempo. You don't need 20-point plays to force them down on cards.

                      Wardancer's ability to interfere with this strategy is one-of-a-kind, and very powerful. You not just force the opponent to play, you force them to play at a -3 handicap. If it's easy to tempo them out from even points, how much easier is it to tempo them out at -3 points.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by WildFeo View Post

                        So, assuring a CA advantage is literally all it does? Isn't it a bit too much for a bronze?
                        See, it doesn't do CA, though. It prevents you from dry passing the round TO GAIN CA by doing nothing.
                        I might not be a good person, but at least I don't play Nilfgaard

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Barracuda88 View Post

                          See, it doesn't do CA, though. It prevents you from dry passing the round TO GAIN CA by doing nothing.
                          I don't know how many times and in what language this issue should be explained to people like you, so I won't even bother anymore. Have fun in your fantasy land - meanwhile I can't wait for the card to be gone in couple of weeks and will stay in hope that the game will not die because of issues like this one.
                          Last edited by partci; 15-04-18, 07:27.

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                          • #28
                            Once again -- disagreeing with others is fine, but ridiculing them is not. Do keep that in mind, please.
                            Can you see this? Yes?! But it was supposed to be invisible ink...
                            Oh well, since you're reading this now I might as well show you a
                            cool link.

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                            • #29
                              Wardancer has been highly problematic for a long time and imo it's the primary reason why ST has dominated the ladder.

                              In a game where CA is everything, this card is toxic. It's a unique tool and strong enough to be a default inclusion to every deck, yet only a single faction has access to it. Maybe CDPR can make it a neutral card but I'd much rather they just remove it.

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                              • #30
                                Isn't it weird te be ahead/behind when the match/round starts without playing a card?
                                It's like starting a football match with 1-0.

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