Is Wardancer A Problem?

[Roi_Barbichette]

Hellsmoke : I do agree with you on this point.

I explained my point of view about the future of ST in another topic. I will quote me (without pretension ), it will be simpler :

"I perfectly agree that some changes are needed. For example, Brouver must be reworked, so that he won't be able to use his mad Cleaver/Yaevinn combo anymore. Moreover, I accept the fact that wardancers need a nerf as well (I must specify that I'm playing a Francesca swap/swarm deck). But I am also convinced that wardancers won't be simply nerfed, they will be killed, like Iorveth:meditation or enforcers.

With all these predictable nerfs targeting Scoia'tael, you might think that players would be satisfied. But still, some players ask for a nerf for half elf hunters as well. It is a fact that they are really good. But nerf them, and you will just weaken an already weak archetype.

Without his Cleaver combo, Brouver W/R should be on par with current Francesca one, ie : 45-47%. Without wardancers, this W/R should fall even more. At this point, Scoia'tael won't need an additionnal nerf, but on the contrary a real buff."

So yeah, Scoiata'el will probably be uncompetitive for a few months, and it seems that some players are ok with that.

 

[Jeydra]

Worst case scenario is : 1) ST player has a red coin and drops a wardancer at the beginning of round 1 ; 2) His opponent wins round 1 after a long round ; 3) ST player drops a wardancer at the beginning of round 2 ; 4) His opponent doesn't have his silver spy, or both players have their spy.

Not quite. Worst case scenario (with decks like the Bloodmoon deck you mentioned) is:

1) ST player has red coin and drops Wardancer at the beginning of round 1;
2) His opponent wins round one down two cards (thanks, Brouver combo!).
3) ST player drops another Wardancer at the beginning of round 2.
4) Opponent doesn't have his silver spy.

Opponent has two choices: play, in which case they'll lose round 3 since they have no good win condition + round 2 is one card shorter (= less time for their engines to generate value) + they'll probably go into round 3 down a card. Alternatively they can pass in which case they'll lose round 3 anyway because they're down two cards. It's possible if difficult to win round 3 down a card; winning it down two cards is almost impossible. I actually get the feeling that this worst case scenario is so bad that the Bloodmoon deck should drypass round 1 even against a Wardancer. At least then he has a shot at making it to round 3 on equal cards, assuming he drew spy.

I suspect the Wardancers are doing more work in your deck than you give them credit for. You might win less than 10% of your games because of their 3-strength body, but you probably win more because of their impact on the opponent's play.

Bran can carry over 14 points? How? Olgierd = 5, Morkvarg = 5, where's the remaining 4 coming from?

 

[Khreygond]

Bran can carry over 14 points? How? Olgierd = 5, Morkvarg = 5, where's the remaining 4 coming from?

5 from olgierd 2 from Morkvarg because he resurrects immediately, and 7 from Cerys

 

[Barracuda88]

...

"I perfectly agree that some changes are needed. For example, Brouver must be reworked, so that he won't be able to use his mad Cleaver/Yaevinn combo anymore. Moreover, I accept the fact that wardancers need a nerf as well (I must specify that I'm playing a Francesca swap/swarm deck). But I am also convinced that wardancers won't be simply nerfed, they will be killed, like Iorveth:meditation or enforcers.

...

So yeah, Scoiata'el will probably be uncompetitive for a few months, and it seems that some players are ok with that.

See, I think people keep overnerfing things. In the dwarf meta, they just needed to fix Ithlinne+tremors, but instead, they did that AND nerfed the entire dwarves archetype.( Like who even asked for the guardians to be nerfed?) Now, Cleaver is the broken card, but everyone's ready to accept the nerf to Brouver and Wardancer, both of which have been the same forever. And then we'll probably also get the Barclay nerf no one asked for on top of all that.

 

[TheIronSultan]

Wardancer is certainly a problem, but it's not that much of a big deal. If you see a Wardancer you simply overpower your opponent, once you have a 20 to 30 point lead, pass and gain the win, then pass for round 2... unless they have another Wardancer.

 

[styape]

If you see a Wardancer you simply overpower your opponent, once you have a 20 to 30 point lead, pass and gain the win

Could you demonstrate this technique against a Brouver deck?

 

[BornBoring]

I guess someone already said it, but the main reason, why wardancer became a problem is, that there is way less carryover in the game than it used to be. Your opponent often had more than 3 points of carryover, so wardancer was useless. Anyway wardancer shouldn't be nerfed but reworked.

 

[licker]

I guess someone already said it, but the main reason, why wardancer became a problem is, that there is way less carryover in the game than it used to be. Your opponent often had more than 3 points of carryover, so wardancer was useless. Anyway wardancer shouldn't be nerfed but reworked.

Or carryover should be reworked so that wardancer doesn't enjoy the current power level for that mechanic he does. A lot of people have had a lot of ideas on how to do this, but, the crux of the current problem is how wardancer is 'free' carryover, compared to other cards which must be played (or discarded through play).

 

[WildFeo]

Wardancer is certainly a problem, but it's not that much of a big deal. If you see a Wardancer you simply overpower your opponent, once you have a 20 to 30 point lead, pass and gain the win, then pass for round 2... unless they have another Wardancer.

Hold on, I am writing down:
1) Simply overpower Brouver for 20-30 points
2) Pass
3) Gain the win
4) Hope they don't drop wardancer R2

Okay got it, thanks.

 

[Sorroth]

I guess someone already said it, but the main reason, why wardancer became a problem is, that there is way less carryover in the game than it used to be. Your opponent often had more than 3 points of carryover, so wardancer was useless. Anyway wardancer shouldn't be nerfed but reworked.

Precisely. As now deathwish doesn't apply to round end. (Who didn't love playing Price-Winning Cow close to the end of the round?)

I am a guilty one here, using Wardancers with a Brouver deck nonetheless. I feel every faction has some problematic mechanic, more or less, and ST happens to have a BIG one of swapping cards for effective strategy, not looking at Wardancer, but more of the lines of Vrihedd Vanguard and Officer. Though I hope the new mulligan change also hits Vrihedd Vanguard "exploit" (of being able to practically redraw Vaguard when certain conditions are met)

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

Not quite. Worst case scenario (with decks like the Bloodmoon deck you mentioned) is:

1) ST player has red coin and drops Wardancer at the beginning of round 1;
2) His opponent wins round one down two cards (thanks, Brouver combo!).
3) ST player drops another Wardancer at the beginning of round 2.
4) Opponent doesn't have his silver spy.

Well sure, going 2 cards down is worse than going 1 card down... But it's not supposed to happen often and it usually implies that you had a bad hand.

In any case, this terrible scenario requires a lot of conditions. I hope that it does not happen to you that often.

But i won't deny that your deck (Bloodmoon) is among the most vulnerable to wardancers and that it must be frustrating.

Maybe I am underestimating the positive impact of wardancers in my deck. But maybe you are underestimating their negative impact as well. Sometimes, a bricking wardancer costs me victory.

Until recently, I had only one wardancer in my deck. Which means that I only played her around 1 game out of 2 ; and I was pretty happy with it.
Then I include a second one in my deck, just to counter Brouver in Round 1.

There are also some situations where I feel powerless and frustrated : when my opponent wins round 1 and plays his silver spy in round 2, whereas I don't have mine.
In such a case, if my leader's opponent is Crach, Jan Calveit or Brouver (with Ciri Nova), I know that I am certainly doomed, just because I wasn't lucky enough to draw the right card...

The big difference is that this problem won't be solved soon.

Ser : This is exactly the Bran combo I am talking about. You don't like it either, do you ?

Barracuda :

I quite agree with you. Nerfing Cleaver would make Brouver less threatening. But I still think that no card should be allowed to tutor a silver spy. It's not just about Brouver. Rainfarn, Hym and Skjall are also problematic.

And about your nerf predictions, you forgot that CDPR could :
- nerf half elf hunters ;
- make elven scouts only available in arena.

After that, playing ST will be quite a challenge...

 

[Roi_Barbichette]

Hold on, I am writing down:
1) Simply overpower Brouver for 20-30 points
2) Pass
3) Gain the win
4) Hope they don't drop wardancer R2

Okay got it, thanks.

With all these advices, you have no more excuses for not auto-winning against Brouver, now .

 

[Khreygond]

Ser : This is exactly the Bran combo I am talking about. You don't like it either, do you ?

I am actually fine with it Depending on the deck at least. I use a QG deck occasionally which is not afraid to go 2 cards down because then I can bleed and empower my 3rd round finisher (Queensguards). It works sometimes. And it often brings Cerys this way.

To be fair though I haven't seen Cerys + Morkvarg + Olgierd in a while. It's usually only 2 out of those 3 that are discarded. Most people don't even run all 3, though they were pretty popular pre-midwinter.

 

[Barracuda88]

...

Barracuda :

I quite agree with you. Nerfing Cleaver would make Brouver less threatening. But I still think that no card should be allowed to tutor a silver spy. It's not just about Brouver. Rainfarn, Hym and Skjall are also problematic.

And about your nerf predictions, you forgot that CDPR could :
- nerf half elf hunters ;
- make elven scouts only available in arena.

After that, playing ST will be quite a challenge...

If no one can tutor silvers spies, that would mean we're leaving them to what? Luck? RNG? Is that really better? Would it also prevent ADC and Fran from tutoring spies? I guess as long as Brouver isn't singled out like the wardancer, it'll be ok... Like a second coinflip Yay! And yes, you're probably right about hunters and the scouts, though I wouldn't miss the scouts as long as slave drivers are out, too.

 

[Jeydra]

Well sure, going 2 cards down is worse than going 1 card down... But it's not supposed to happen often and it usually implies that you had a bad hand.

In any case, this terrible scenario requires a lot of conditions. I hope that it does not happen to you that often.

But i won't deny that your deck (Bloodmoon) is among the most vulnerable to wardancers and that it must be frustrating.

Maybe I am underestimating the positive impact of wardancers in my deck. But maybe you are underestimating their negative impact as well. Sometimes, a bricking wardancer costs me victory.

Until recently, I had only one wardancer in my deck. Which means that I only played her around 1 game out of 2 ; and I was pretty happy with it.
Then I include a second one in my deck, just to counter Brouver in Round 1.

Why wouldn't it happen? Brouver is built to force the opponent to go down two cards if they get the blue coin. Especially with a Wardancer mulligan on top of it. The combo is 4 (Brouver) + 2 (Barclay) +20 (Cleaver) for 26 points + 3 (Wardancer) - 13 (Yaevinn) for 16 points. How many decks can play 16 points in one card? If you've seen Oceanmud's Crusher Eredin deck, he goes to crazy lengths to make sure he doesn't go down two cards. That's how brutal going against Brouver on the blue coin with Wardancer mulligan is.

The worst case scenario happens quite often - blue coin + opponent has Wardancer is more or less sufficient for it to happen. Rarely, the Brouver deck misfires (doesn't have the Cleaver combo, for example). A little more commonly, the Brouver deck does not have Wardancers in round 2, in which case Moonlight escapes into round 3 down only one card. However since round 3 isn't that long - some cards were played in round 1 after all - the Moonlight deck is still going to lose. I hazard the win rate of Moonlight decks in general vs. Brouver on the blue coin with a Wardancer mulligan is around 10%. The game barely needs to be played; if you see blue coin + Wardancer you might rank up faster by forfeiting.

Re: Francesca swap / swarm deck, I played that during the dwarf meta to top 100. 2 Wardancers feels about right. You want one in round 1 (just in case you win the coin flip) and another in round 2 (if you lost round 1). However the pain of mulliganing into them in round 3 is just too high. They also brick your mulligan - because you have to mulligan Wardancers, you can't also mulligan Aelirenn if you draw her in round 2. Only way out is to mulligan them with Officers or Francesca, but if you do that with Officers it's still only an 11-point play, while Francesca has more important things to mulligan (back then it was spells for Ithlinne). So two Wardancers sound about right.

Re: Bran combo - well Cerys needs one more card to trigger, so if you don't want to play against carryover and pass the moment Bran is used, she won't be resurrected and the carryover doesn't reach 14 points.

There are also some situations where I feel powerless and frustrated : when my opponent wins round 1 and plays his silver spy in round 2, whereas I don't have mine.
In such a case, if my leader's opponent is Crach, Jan Calveit or Brouver (with Ciri Nova), I know that I am certainly doomed, just because I wasn't lucky enough to draw the right card...

I can certainly agree with this, but am not so sure if it's a problem. Point is, if you also have spy, then drypassing round 1 isn't actually that bad. This could make it very difficult any deck that doesn't like long rounds if they're playing against a deck that does. However ... it is very frustrating.

Also if you're playing Francesca, you can just Francesca for spy (they should absolutely get rid of the +3 Francesca buff on Yaevinn however).

I quite agree with you. Nerfing Cleaver would make Brouver less threatening. But I still think that no card should be allowed to tutor a silver spy. It's not just about Brouver. Rainfarn, Hym and Skjall are also problematic.

And about your nerf predictions, you forgot that CDPR could :
- nerf half elf hunters ;
- make elven scouts only available in arena.

After that, playing ST will be quite a challenge...

There's a neutral card for all factions that tutors for spy - Alzur's Double Cross. Of course it comes with a drawback that you actually end up behind on points relative to the opponent's spy (15 to 13) which means you still have to play a card to win. But it's there.

Half-elf Hunter probably shouldn't be nerfed. It's a strong card, but that's about it. There're plenty of 11-power bronzes that barely see play (e.g. Elven Healer), so cutting Half-elf Hunter to 11 strength is likely to kill it. Elven Scout is also fine, if you discount the create RNG aspect.

I feel Brouver Elfswarm's win rate right now is heavily inflated by the coin flip + Wardancer aspect. It's probably the deck that shows greatest difference in win rate when it gets the blue coin vs. when it gets the red coin. If you don't get stomped by the coin flip, Elfswarm actually has exploitable weaknesses. You can:

1) Kill all the elves (doable with Henselt machines)
2) Pass just before the Officers start to get good (they only have so many Half-elf Hunters & Elven Scouts, and cannot resurrect them except with Hattori)
3) Bleed round 2 since they have no round 3 plan (unless they're playing Ciri: Nova)

But if you get hit by the blue coin with a Wardancer, and don't have your own Wardancers, I think every deck in the game is an underdog.

 

[Eamalin1]

So I just read the roadmap. Noticed in the entire thing only a single card was mentioned. That card is Wardancer.

I play ST so I am a bit biased. I would like to see this card stay in the game. It is strong, but is it a problem? What do you guys think?

people always like to cry about scoeateal no matter what, yet turn a blind eye to when skellige or northern realm are just as big a problem with their bear and winch spam

 

[thirdeye50]

people always like to cry about scoeateal no matter what, yet turn a blind eye to when skellige or northern realm are just as big a problem with their bear and winch spam

I sure wish when I play NR I was able to play like 6 cards with 1 single card, SC needs to be castrated from playing so many cards at once and when there not puking out cards they use every sissy removal card they can get there hands on.
I play a Henselt machine deck but don't use winch because they are just not reliable enough ( maybe just my bad luck) kinda like running into 12 SC decks a day playing the same point puking/removal bitch decks that whine when they don't get that expected win every time.

 

[licker]

people always like to cry about scoeateal no matter what, yet turn a blind eye to when skellige or northern realm are just as big a problem with their bear and winch spam

NR and SK may be a problem, but it's a completely different kind of problem. To be sure Henselt on a red coin auto pulling banners is pretty annoying, but... it still is something you can control to a degree.

You cannot do anything about wardancer other than hope your opponent didn't have any in their hand.

And SK bear spam really isn't a problem either, it's just boring to play.

 

[psysteel]

I could see a Wardancer in game if devs would change its ablility to following: "If swaped during a mulligan phase - don't draw a card."
Uncounterable carryover - fine. But no card for you either.

 

[Hellsmoke77]

I could see a Wardancer in game if devs would change its ablility to following: "If swaped during a mulligan phase - don't draw a card."
Uncounterable carryover - fine. But no card for you either.

So with Francessca a 10 point play and with officer an 11 point play..glad you aren't a dev.