Golds that are (have the same effect as)/give scorch really need a nerf

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Karajorma;n9285931 said:
But if you have the highest card on the board, Schirru is basically a dead card until the last round. If you play him earlier you actually hurt your game because you'll be forced to transform one of your cards. And if you don't have the highest card on the board, then playing him can still backfire if something changes in the next round so that you do have the highest card (for instance using Unseen Elder to eat the highest cards often makes scorch useless unless you have dimiterium as well.)

If you're playing Schirru and you often have the highest card you're playing him in the wrong deck. I'm not saying he never backfires, just I think he's too good. A card being able to ever be countered (by three cards, two of which are silver) isn't an argument against him being a bit too good. I mean he has the same power as Geralt (assuming he's not boosted.) And no, playing him is never bad, you -can- I repeat -CAN!- turn a card into scorch, you don't have to. And you seem to be acting like all your cards in your hand are freaking gold. Usually there are a lot of cards scorch would be a welcome replacement too.


Restlessdingo32;n9285961 said:
Had you considered holding your spy or pushing to force those cards R2? You can put most decks relying on multiple scorch effects into a tight spot by doing either of these, since they tend to win R3 by stacking golds/scorch effects.

If you think a card like Schirru/Borkh hitting 20ish value is somehow overvalued some explanation is in order. Plenty of other golds can do the same, several of which are more difficult to play around.

Not everyone runs spy cards. I'd hate for that to be a requirement to have a viable deck.

Please tell me these golds that don't require outside input that are worth 20. I'm all ears.
 
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NerdExtrodinare;n9286091 said:
Not everyone runs spy cards. I'd hate for that to be a requirement to have a viable deck.

Please tell me these golds that don't require outside input that are worth 20. I'm all ears.

Define outside input. Or, better yet, why you felt the need to use it as a condition?

To answer your question, of the top of my head, Woodlands, Kayran, Speartip and Succubus can translate to 20+ for MS. Caretaker could in the right scenario. Coral can do it for SK. Ermion/Lugos can under the right circumstances. Most NR golds cannot do so reliably but many can get close. Tibor can under the right scenario. Hell, many silvers/bronzes can translate to 20+ point swings in one card play under the right circumstances.

Pretty much everyone runs spy cards BTW. Dorf decks or any pure tempo builds are about the only consistent exception.
 
Zefyris;n9283021 said:
because that's schirru's real value. Any other gold card that you play doesn't delete a card of your hand to create its effect, he does. So his value is 10+scorch value- transformed card value.
MEaning that if you scorch a 15 but used a 9 value card, he's indeed 16 value, not 25.

I get why you think that way but I don't think that is the right way to look at it. The card that is deleted isn't even relevant to the game anymore. You didn't lose card advantage or temp when you deleted it. You simply have a 10 gold card in the Schirru and another scorch. You get the full value from those cards. There is no sense in subtracting the value of the deleted card from the value you are getting from those two cards.
 
NerdExtrodinare;n9285851 said:
That math is more valid, but it's still not a problem, if you'd rather have the 9 card you don't have to transform one of your cards into scorch (at least that's how I read the card, I've never played him.) And there are many times when there's a card that's -not- 9 value. And even if it is a nine value, that's still a scorch+1, another scorch is almost always a good thing. Well assuming you're not an idiot and transforming a scorch when you have the highest card.

Yes, you can decide not to transform. In which case Schirru is worth 10.
And that there's plenty of time where you simply don't know yet if the card you're transforming is better or not, and that it doesn't change the fact that any other gold outside of schirru would allow you to play that card without having to wonder if the scorch will be better than it or not.
Don't get me wrong, I use Schirru myself, and I wouldn't use him if I didn't think he's a good card. However; he's not a 10 strength card that scorch. You're giving up one card to scorch, which is a HUGE difference in terme of how much points he gives you, and how hard he is to play, too.


StrykerxS77x;n9286211 said:
I get why you think that way but I don't think that is the right way to look at it. The card that is deleted isn't even relevant to the game anymore. You didn't lose card advantage or temp when you deleted it. You simply have a 10 gold card in the Schirru and another scorch. You get the full value from those cards. There is no sense in subtracting the value of the deleted card from the value you are getting from those two cards.

Of course there is sense. Because if you had another gold than shirru you would play that other card in your hand rather than transforming it. That's the ONLY way to look at it. Any other is wrong. If you want to know if Schirru is bringing good value in your deck, this is the math you're supposed to do. If you want to know if Schirru isn't too strong, this is the map you need to do.
And since, btw, you cannot see what your opponent transformed, you completely ignore what card he used, so you cannot do the math without playing yourself that card and experience it.
Quite often you'll be wondering if you should transform the card or not simply because you're not sure that the scorch is going to be more beneficial for you than the card you're transforming. A multiple scorch ST deck with Schirru is quite strong but requires a lot of thinking and he's one of the reason for this.

Schirru is a good gold, but not half as strong as some peoples think, and he's a pretty hard to play gold to boot. Even top players worry about what to transform in scorch with him regularly.





 
Zefyris;n9286781 said:
Of course there is sense. Because if you had another gold than shirru you would play that other card in your hand rather than transforming it. That's the ONLY way to look at it. Any other is wrong. If you want to know if Schirru is bringing good value in your deck, this is the math you're supposed to do. If you want to know if Schirru isn't too strong, this is the map you need to do.
And since, btw, you cannot see what your opponent transformed, you completely ignore what card he used, so you cannot do the math without playing yourself that card and experience it.
Quite often you'll be wondering if you should transform the card or not simply because you're not sure that the scorch is going to be more beneficial for you than the card you're transforming. A multiple scorch ST deck with Schirru is quite strong but requires a lot of thinking and he's one of the reason for this.

Schirru is a good gold, but not half as strong as some peoples think, and he's a pretty hard to play gold to boot. Even top players worry about what to transform in scorch with him regularly.

Even if you want to look at it that way you can't do exact math by attributing 15 points to the scorch and 9 points to the transformed card. Scorch could get 40 or 50 value as well as screwing up synergy in your opponent. The card you transform could be a dead card.

 
Zefyris;n9286781 said:
Yes, you can decide not to transform. In which case Schirru is worth 10.
And that there's plenty of time where you simply don't know yet if the card you're transforming is better or not, and that it doesn't change the fact that any other gold outside of schirru would allow you to play that card without having to wonder if the scorch will be better than it or not.
Don't get me wrong, I use Schirru myself, and I wouldn't use him if I didn't think he's a good card. However; he's not a 10 strength card that scorch. You're giving up one card to scorch, which is a HUGE difference in terme of how much points he gives you, and how hard he is to play, too.




Of course there is sense. Because if you had another gold than shirru you would play that other card in your hand rather than transforming it. That's the ONLY way to look at it. Any other is wrong. If you want to know if Schirru is bringing good value in your deck, this is the math you're supposed to do. If you want to know if Schirru isn't too strong, this is the map you need to do.
And since, btw, you cannot see what your opponent transformed, you completely ignore what card he used, so you cannot do the math without playing yourself that card and experience it.
Quite often you'll be wondering if you should transform the card or not simply because you're not sure that the scorch is going to be more beneficial for you than the card you're transforming. A multiple scorch ST deck with Schirru is quite strong but requires a lot of thinking and he's one of the reason for this.

Schirru is a good gold, but not half as strong as some peoples think, and he's a pretty hard to play gold to boot. Even top players worry about what to transform in scorch with him regularly.

I'm sorry but you're so obviously biased here, more biased than I, who want the card nerfed I just can't take you seriously.

You pretty much just denied that you would ever have a dead card in your hand, and that scorch isn't an amazing card 90% of the time, I mean ask me if I want a random bronze or scorch and guess what I'm gonna grab? If it's a 15 value buff card then yeah, 15 is probably better, but there's numerous low value cards, like weather clear against a non-weather deck, or just a plain "mulligan" card that you drew when you didn't need it.
 
Zefyris;n9286781 said:
You're giving up one card to scorch, which is a HUGE difference in terme of how much points he gives you, and how hard he is to play, too.

As the others pointed out, you are not giving up a card for scorch. When you are including "regular silver" scorch in your deck, do you then think of this card as the possible silver slot you are not taking of another card? You are not removing a card, you are changing an existing card for another (that typically is more convenient for you).
 
Scorch, Igni, Villainfukcingmeth and Co. are perfectly fine as long as there are decks out there that can churn out points as pigeons churn out shite.

"Nooooo, but I want my 4 same-strength Reaver Hunters to be untouchable, otherwise what's the point!!!!"

:eredinfacepalm:
 
StrykerxS77x;n9286831 said:
Even if you want to look at it that way you can't do exact math by attributing 15 points to the scorch and 9 points to the transformed card. Scorch could get 40 or 50 value as well as screwing up synergy in your opponent. The card you transform could be a dead card.

It's not relevant when everything goes to plan. This has very little to do with card value though. Pretty much every well constructed ST Control relying on multiple scorch effects is designed to stack golds R3 and drop those scorches. In this case you have nothing eligible to be scorched on your board unless the opponent has Shackles. So the card you transform wasn't going to help there anyway.

The thing is, many players seem oblivious to the proper way to disrupt this strategy. It can fall apart if you can force some of those golds out prior to R3. It can fall apart if you can make a spy eat one of the scorches R3. It can even run into problems if you have CA and leverage it into playing a big unit after the scorches are used up. Shackles can cripple it. Blindly throwing 3-4 high power units on the board R3, thinking all these uber buffed units will carry you to victory, is the incorrect approach. I'll bet most of the complaints towards these decks are running an auto-pilot deck and doing exactly that. It's no surprise they are getting burned.

In terms of 40-50 point scorches... That can only happen with 40-50 points on the board lined up for the scorch. So I fail to see the problem. 40-50 points off 1 scorch pretty much never happens as well, not unless someone thought throwing out 40-50 points worth of equal power units was smart. In which case they deserve to get burned.
 
i just played against a scoiatel deck that runs every single scorch card and deck thinner; the goal being to go through the entire deck and win round 3 with golds and scorch spams, along with ciri dash. basically, they push round 1 by playing all of their bronzes, then pass round 2 and play round 3 with schirru, dash and bork (the 4th gold is possibly igni, normal geralt or yennefer to push round 1)

the problem with scoiatel is the following: being able to scorch, then eithne to scorch again, then schirru for a 3rd scorch, and follow up with cards like igni and bork for even more scorches. the whole point of silver specials, as far as i'm aware, is that you can only play one of them. then you have people playing 4 scorches in a deck; how is that not ridiculous?
as far as i'm aware, it was the reason behind nerfing aeromancy (people playing SK storm 3x on one game), i don't see why not give scorch the same treatment. make the card doomed, so eithne can't pull it (or rather, change eithne effect altogether, given how the leader is too powerful as is), and nerf the base strength of "gold scorches"
 
RickMelethron;n9305801 said:
i just played against a scoiatel deck that runs every single scorch card and deck thinner; the goal being to go through the entire deck and win round 3 with golds and scorch spams, along with ciri dash. basically, they push round 1 by playing all of their bronzes, then pass round 2 and play round 3 with schirru, dash and bork (the 4th gold is possibly igni, normal geralt or yennefer to push round 1)

the problem with scoiatel is the following: being able to scorch, then eithne to scorch again, then schirru for a 3rd scorch, and follow up with cards like igni and bork for even more scorches. the whole point of silver specials, as far as i'm aware, is that you can only play one of them. then you have people playing 4 scorches in a deck; how is that not ridiculous?
as far as i'm aware, it was the reason behind nerfing aeromancy (people playing SK storm 3x on one game), i don't see why not give scorch the same treatment. make the card doomed, so eithne can't pull it (or rather, change eithne effect altogether, given how the leader is too powerful as is), and nerf the base strength of "gold scorches"

How is it more ridiculous compared to pretty much everything else?

If you want to know why people are doing this it's very simple.... Most of the alternatives aren't able to keep pace with other decks out there. Either run tempo/carry-over spam or removal spam. Those are the options.
 
A bit of thinking....instead of nerfing scorch effect why not add some power staggering option? I think scorch effect is essential and healthy for the game and it keeps player on their toes to try play around them (and there are reasonably available means to do so, a bit rough for NR though). Scorch effect is already risky to run (backfire!) and the only option without risk is igni, which has sensible limitation. So no, proposing such nerf is not justified to me.
 
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ResoundingBuahaha;n9309521 said:
A bit of thinking....instead of nerfing scorch effect why not add some power staggering option? I think scorch effect is essential and healthy for the game and it keeps player on their toes to try play around them (and there are reasonably available means to do so, a bit rough for NR though). Scorch effect is already risky to run (backfire!) and the only option without risk is igni, which has sensible limitation. So no, proposing such nerf is not justified to me.

If scorch is a particularly big risk of backfiring you're running it in the wrong deck.

And I love how everyone is still on about Scorch when this topic is about the golds that give/are Scorch, not Scorch itself.
 
NerdExtrodinare;n9309561 said:
If scorch is a particularly big risk of backfiring you're running it in the wrong deck.

And I love how everyone is still on about Scorch when this topic is about the golds that give/are Scorch, not Scorch itself.

you kinda misread me.. scorch effect itself is inherently has the possibility to backfire, I never run them but I know this can happen and can be a way to counter borkh though not that usual.

My point is there should be more way to play around scorch effect gold instead of cry for nerfing and even no new staggering is added there's already some way to do so. It's a bit like running counter or tech against certain cards.

And it's pointless to criticize whether it's gold scorch or scorch, they burn, that's what matters.
 
NerdExtrodinare;n9309561 said:
If scorch is a particularly big risk of backfiring you're running it in the wrong deck.

And I love how everyone is still on about Scorch when this topic is about the golds that give/are Scorch, not Scorch itself.

All two of them? One has a timer and the other requires killing one of your own cards. Eithne isn't really the same thing since she is a leader. Replaying Scorch off her might be more reasonable if SK/NR couldn't point explode a board and Thunderbolt/Iboost/CHorn weren't getting bombed in certain other decks.

I guess Igni counts but it has it's own restrictions... Anyone not accounting for it by now needs to quit playing a deck like it's retard proof.

Like I said before, Scorch only gets high value if there is high value on a board, regardless of where it comes from. And certain other golds reliably give as much or more value with minimal thought.
 
Restlessdingo32;n9311741 said:
All two of them? One has a timer and the other requires killing one of your own cards. Eithne isn't really the same thing since she is a leader. Replaying Scorch off her might be more reasonable if SK/NR couldn't point explode a board and Thunderbolt/Iboost/CHorn weren't getting bombed in certain other decks.

I guess Igni counts but it has it's own restrictions... Anyone not accounting for it by now needs to quit playing a deck like it's retard proof.

Like I said before, Scorch only gets high value if there is high value on a board, regardless of where it comes from. And certain other golds reliably give as much or more value with minimal thought.

You're back beating this dead horse about Schirru again? We've been over that, we really don't need to go over me and the other guy disagreeing with you again.

I also said I'm not talking about Igni. I don't like the card, he's annoying, but I don't think he needs a nerf.

No, that's not the only way scorch gets a high value. It also gets a high value if there's multiple cards of moderate value on the board that have the same value.

And you need to clean up your language my friend. "Retard proof" is in no way an appropriate comment.
 
I don't have a problem with any of these cards by themselves. I might have a problem with combining them together with golds in the last round. That feels a bit out of hand.
 
NerdExtrodinare;n9327981 said:
You're back beating this dead horse about Schirru again? We've been over that, we really don't need to go over me and the other guy disagreeing with you again.

I also said I'm not talking about Igni. I don't like the card, he's annoying, but I don't think he needs a nerf.

No, that's not the only way scorch gets a high value. It also gets a high value if there's multiple cards of moderate value on the board that have the same value.

And you need to clean up your language my friend. "Retard proof" is in no way an appropriate comment.

Retard proof might be too strong, so apologies. What I was getting at is decent players play around Geralt:Igni. Gigni only appears overpowered when it's not accounted for and played around. It tends to see limited play in the existing meta as MMR goes up, with a few exceptions, because it's not very good vs certain common decks and..... everyone plays around it. In these cases it's at best a 4 pt Scorch with limitations, one that eats a gold slot, or a 4 pt gold.

No, I wasn't referring to Schirru with my last statement in the earlier post. The point was Scorch effects can only take existing points off a board. If 20 points get dropped on a board in one card the Scorch taking them off cannot be too strong unless the 20 points in one card is too strong as well. Obviously, not many cards can put 20 positive points on a board. Many can put 12-14+ on the board as a single play, however. It's not very reasonable to say running 3-4 high value removals is broken but running half a dozen high value positive point cards isn't.

Don't get me wrong either, stacking Scorch effect golds in a single round can be strong, sure. Like everything else, there are ways around it. They just happen to be more abstract than "play this card". It isn't anymore powerful than stacking carry-over/potions, 4+ RH, everything MS does or SK "Surprise, all my card plays can make 15-20+ point swings" Discard if they're not dealt with properly.
 
Restlessdingo32;n9338411 said:
Retard proof might be too strong, so apologies.
Uh... Did... We get off the internet some point during this...? Someone apologized on the internet! The end is nigh!

Restlessdingo32;n9338411 said:
What I was getting at is decent players play around Geralt:Igni. Gigni only appears overpowered when it's not accounted for and played around. It tends to see limited play in the existing meta as MMR goes up, with a few exceptions, because it's not very good vs certain common decks and..... everyone plays around it. In these cases it's at best a 4 pt Scorch with limitations, one that eats a gold slot, or a 4 pt gold.
Well it's scorch with limitations but it also has the bonus of not hitting your own side. (And again, I never said Igni was over powered. He annoys me but he's not over powered as like you said it can be played around.)

Restlessdingo32;n9338411 said:
No, I wasn't referring to Schirru with my last statement in the earlier post. The point was Scorch effects can only take existing points off a board. If 20 points get dropped on a board in one card the Scorch taking them off cannot be too strong unless the 20 points in one card is too strong as well. Obviously, not many cards can put 20 positive points on a board. Many can put 12-14+ on the board as a single play, however. It's not very reasonable to say running 3-4 high value removals is broken but running half a dozen high value positive point cards isn't.
I would partially agree with you but there's the point that it can hit more than one target, and likely something with 20 points you're hitting more than one card (most likely.) They were buffed by other cards.

Restlessdingo32;n9338411 said:
Don't get me wrong either, stacking Scorch effect golds in a single round can be strong, sure. Like everything else, there are ways around it. They just happen to be more abstract than "play this card". It isn't anymore powerful than stacking carry-over/potions, 4+ RH, everything MS does or SK "Surprise, all my card plays can make 15-20+ point swings" Discard if they're not dealt with properly.
I will say that I also think stacking persistence and potions are a bit too powerful at this point, if I don't have enough resets I'm screwed even in this round, let alone the one they're all going to persist into. But that's a different thread for a different day :D
 
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